God & The Occult question

I've been stuck with a question for awhile now and I've googled it and it's left me with unpleasing answers and some not even answers at all.

When it all comes down to it Magick,Sorcery,Alchemy whatever you want to call it, I know the Bible says not to practice it and keep faith in God and what not, but at the same time I'm left wondering why would it exist at all if there wasn't an element of what we call Good vs Evil.

Basically what I'm saying is why would God let something come into existence that is to defy him and do the works of Evil?

Being the cunning guy that he is, I'd suspect he'd just counter it and make a 'good' magic you'd say to go against the bad.

Only reason I ask is because of my growing interest in not only the universe but in the creator itself, for I now if this entity deemed 'satan' or any kind of evil figure you want to suggest exists and since he's the antagonist there HAS to be a protagonist or else the antagonist's means and the things that support him would of course be meaningless.

That brings back the point of me having a basis of faith. I believe the Bible is somewhat an introductory guide to knowledge and taking a road onward into a spiritual journey leading us into studying symbols and learning the meanings behind prophecies.


We can all agree that the Bible May be God's word but it was written by Men and considering Constantine and the Council of Nicea I can only assume things that could have answered this question for me was taken out of the doctrines or perhaps one of the burned gospels and other scrolls that have been lost forever such as the ones in The Great Library Of Alexandria.

By reviewing a lot of material that's on this board it's quite common sense to agree that there's something sinister at hand in the works no matter how you look at it if it's jobs,schools,communities,that leads to Governments and Politics which always finds its way into Religion and when you get into Religion you get into History and Embark for Knowledge Which Brings Me Here.

Especially considering the fact it's strange we can't bring these such topics up in our own Churches, which I already know by the Bible alone in the Last Days that Men will Come In The Name Of Christ But Will Deceive.

I just find it strange that everything that deals with stargates,communicating with ANGELS,incantations,etc, all gets QUICKLY shunned without a "fair trial" if you will all because it isn't in the Bible, but little do they know there was a council that dictated what got in it and what didn't which could have contained very valuable information to those following the path of the most high. I believe this is what makes people result to just getting around people who have come to the same understanding as them and THUS, gets LABELED as the new word for not cool and something to stay away from, 'occult'

Now don't get me wrong I have HEAVY faith in there being a God above all those that call themselves Gods and is what I guess you would come to call, The Architect Of The Universe, and I'm sure those who support the opposing role have strong faith in who-ever the antagonist is that they believe in...

So basically what are the spiritual doctrines such as The Kabbalah that work on the behalf of doing the GREATER Good I guess in Yeshua or Elohim's name and NOT that the one that supports evil?

oh and honestly i dont know much about The Kabbalah it's somewhat a rumor I believe I'm not sure considering I don't know much about it but it was supposedly given to Moses the same time the 10 Commandments were..but regardless of it's nature I was just using it as an example...yep..just thought i'd throw that in.. x_x

Very interesting questions, OP...you raise a lot of points, too many to deal with, really, but I've been thinking about some of these things lately too. I'm reading this book now:
"Grimoires: A History of Magic Books" by Owen Davies

www.amazon.com...

Its sort of an academic-style "history of magical texts" and one of the things that comes across in reading it is that the tension between what is to be condemned as "magic" or "sorcery" and what is miraculous, the work of God, or simply science has ALWYAS been a big question. Scholars have bickered bitterly over this dividing line since the very beginnings of Christianity. For example, lots of people knew about herbal medicines and lore of healing and plants in the old days that involved ritualistic preparations of medicines, etc. Was this "sorcery" or "alchemy?" Or mearly helpful medical knowledge? Or even a gift of divine knowledge? Lots of multi-century arguments on that. And what about charms and amulets? It was OK to wear a cross, but not OK to wear a pentacle,,,what about some other forms of things you could wear, or pictures, or stuff people wrote above their doors in chalk for good luck...was that Christian Tradition or Pagan blasphemy? And then there is the question of knowledge about the night sky: The church officially condemned astrology, but obviously people used the stars to navigate with and so on as simple practical knowledge...the line between astronomy and astrology was pretty blurry back in the middle ages. Another thorny topic: there were books proprting to contain the wisdom of King Solomon or Moses that involved information about both devils and angels: were these books to be forbidden, or were they to be cherished? And so onOn and on, the questions have gone back and forth over the ages.

So in summary, there have ALWAYS been arguments about ALL KINDS of gray areas...very bitter arguments that have often ended with book burning and human burning at the stake, too. Generally in history the church tried to monitor and suppress writing and keep a monopoly on it. When the printing press became available, this became harder to do, and you had the Reformation, the breakawy of the Protestants from the Catholics, the scientific revolutions, etc etc.

My own personal view tends towards the "let information flow freely." I don't believe in banning books, burning books, or restricting knowledge. At the same time, I have no desire to perform black magic or summon deamons. But I think people should be allowed to read about it, and I read about it myself. Let it all hang out and the truth will reveal itself, sez I. More knowledge = more power.

Here is a great collection of actual historical magical texts online, most available for free. If you are interested, check them out and make up your own mind about where to draw what kinds of lines:

www.esotericarchives.com...


There are no easy answers...and there is so much to learn...



[edit on 3/26/09 by silent thunder]

Originally posted by hezekiahBasically what I'm saying is why would God let something come into existence that is to defy him and do the works of Evil?

I will answer this question as best I can.

Think of it this way. What if there was a class room and a teacher was showing the way to solve an equation. Then one student says he has a better way than the teachers way of doing it.

What does the teacher do?

A. Kick the student out, leaving the rest of the students thinking "maybe he did have a better way and thats why the teacher kicked him out."

B. Tell the student to come up and try for himself. If the student fails it proves the teacher was right and shows the rest of the class that he is the one who knows what he is doing.

The same goes for us. In the garden of eden satan questioned Gods right to rule, saying he had a better way. God is allowing him to try and satan is being proven wrong. War, sickness, death, suffering, along with things mentioned in your post all are affects of satans rulership of this world.

I hope that helps or at least gives you something to ponder over.

On the question of good and evil, this too has been bitterly debated down through the ages. On one extreme you have the Manicheans and Zoroastreans, who believe in a sharp dividing line and eternal war between a good god and an evil being that are both equally powerful. On the other extreme you have Taoism and Buddhism basically sidestepping the whole question of good versus evil and pointing the way to a universal unity or saying that you should focus on achieving a certain mystical state and then what is good will flow automatically.

Christianity has generally been between these two extremes. The view of Satan as having equal power with God was rejected pretty early on: Satan was seen as a creature of God too. So why, then, does God allow evil to exist? Probably the most common answer to this came from St. Augustine. He defined evil as "distance from God." Since God made man in his own image, he gave man free will and the will to make up his own mind. This is a precious gift, Godlike, really...its the part of us that is "in God's image" because its similar to God's universal power. But free will means we may wander towards or away from God...when we wander away by disobeying his commandments, or the original sin of disobeying his order not to eat the forbidden fruit, this is experienced as "suffering" and "evil" by us. It's not God doing this to us...its something we choose to do ourselves with our free will, God's most precious gift.

When we blame God for evil, we are like kids getting mad at mommie and tossing a tantrum because she won't give us another cookie. Its not that mommy is evil; its that as children we don't have full knowledge about what's good and what's bad. Huamnity as a whole is like this since the Fall from the Garden of Eden...now we "see as through a glass darkly" and because we have wandered away from God of our own free choice, we don't fully understand what's good and what's evil. Y

Yet even with this sin that arises from our free will, God's love is amazingly strong:"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son Jesus Christ" to take upon himself the weight of our original sin. Through Christ we are born anew and allowed to return to the light of God, from whom we have wandered away (first through original sin and then with whatever sins we commit in life.). Like the mother comfforting the sniviling crying kid who wants a cookie, God extends himself for us and dries our tears in the form of Christ's sacrifice.

That's the theory, anyway. In one form or another, arguments along these lines have been made since the 300's to explain how an infinitely good God could allow Evil.

reply to post by hezekiah


I think Gregg Braden asked the same question once, and the answer he got was that good and evil are not polar opposites. That evil is within good, or vice-versa depending on your perspective (see Rambo 4 for more information).

Basically what I'm saying is why would God let something come into existence that is to defy him and do the works of Evil?


aha!! lets look at your question in more detail without the bullshizzle

Why? why is a question asked by man.. then we ad God! also a question .. that puts us in a sticky place, now we have 2 questions

god and why "make me sickky in my tummy" but lets move on..

he lets! its? lets what? evil!! ohhh bad bad!! "very biblical" this question is..

ok so what you are saying is... why would god let evil be created "by him" only to make out he is full of xxx and evil is somewhat good "depending on who you are ofc"

well i see it like this god is a joke .. its not real evil is only a joke also.. men are somethig "im just to blame as you" that want to ignore the very real fact of our own reality" look at the stars"..

god the bible is only a form of controll so the masses "ie us lot" dont go ape sh#t and trun this rock into a madplace "tho thats how its going righ now"..

there is no real evil or good in the world.. there is only the false sens of of morality that men chose to hold up and pin up on there chest as medel of self rtichesness?"sp"..

at the end of the day you and me will die and find out who runs the show,, and if not and there is nothing after life,, well then i guess my post is as erelivent as the universe.

; )

To those that would equate the occult with evil: that's one of those Satanic lies. The "light side" is the good side to go against the bad. The bad (dark) is basically an inversion of the good with none of it's own attributes other than inversion of the good.

Rather than debate anything, I'd rather like to say that when things were going rather badly in my life, and even worse in the life of someone important to me and I made a sincere prayer to God on behalf of the other person for something that would help, what was brought into my life was not the Bible but the occult-- the light side, the good side.

The main reason I can see for this is that it is more philosophical in nature than the Bible or other text and I'm interested in the dry, nitty-gritty of things over hearing a bunch of stories. After much reading, it's apparent that the Bible does contain much of the same material but only that it's far more diluted and became readily recognizable after training myself. The messages come in many forms and are consistent in their basic principles. Unfortunately, many things have been perverted by people more interested in following the dark path.

Remember, the dark side has no power of its own. Satan can only tempt but man must take the actions to bring about actualization. Freewill is integral to God's plan for us to choose light or dark.

Very insightful posts....


They are tending to steer away from the question concerning rituals considered to be magic or occult today.


I know I'm going to be teased for even using this as an example but think of the whole Harry Potter thing, there is a Dark Arts teacher and there is a Good Magic that works for the greater good the people,earth,life...and there is an antagonistic type magic...basically I'm just confused on how the ones in the occult who do rituals or whatever it is they do to be conjuring demons or what not..and Christians and what not are just told to read the bible and pray, hold to the commandments, go to church and your fine where it seems the other side has to do more work...

so as far as all the rituals go and the charms and amulets, things such as chakra and chi isn't there some that works on what you could say the Christians behalf?

Only reason I ask is because I figured if they hid the Hebrew name Yeshua from the world and gave them Jesus why wouldn't they hide other things that could help bring us closer to this Creator?

Ah those things are very true Enlightened, note I made my last post BEFORE i saw yours but I wasn't trying to say Satanists and the Occult were one in the same, as you can see I'm confused I did read the topic on Occultists Are Not Satanists!

I'm basically at the point where you WERE at I like knowing he knitty gritty too but also I do find the stories and the decoding you have to do with the Bible somewhat, fun..I consider it a challenge a preparation for the knowledge I seek beyond it.

ah u see this is the main problem i have.

lets look at our history in a logical way here

Universe
earth
life
humans
god
Moden man
????????

something is missing in this picture? Bible

God
universe
Earth
Man

? what part of this am i missing? or shall we take anothe view?

God
universe
Dino's
something
monkeyman
Evolution
Man
???

there is a wide mix... but do you notice somethings????

GOD LIFE MAN

they are the reason for this thread and something is not right, and thats why we all question it.. i dont know who is right but i sure as hell know something is NOT right about this picture!!!!

god for a start is one then man "me you ect" then "life"

that alone gives rise to every other topic/thread you can imagen

why for god created life for man to question god and understand life..right

harrypotter does not seem as far fretched as your own reality, tho most people take it for granted that being here is infact NORMAL

i find that very funny ironic and dangerouse at best "sp"

Originally posted by hezekiah
Very insightful posts....


They are tending to steer away from the question concerning rituals considered to be magic or occult today.

I can't say whether they're good or bad. It seems the intent behind act is what really matters in most cases unless there's an inherently destructive element to them.

One more appealing aspect for myself is the work is within one's self rather than a cornicopia of rituals.

I know I'm going to be teased for even using this as an example but think of the whole Harry Potter thing, there is a Dark Arts teacher and there is a Good Magic that works for the greater good the people,earth,life...and there is an antagonistic type magic...basically I'm just confused on how the ones in the occult who do rituals or whatever it is they do to be conjuring demons or what not..and Christians and what not are just told to read the bible and pray, hold to the commandments, go to church and your fine where it seems the other side has to do more work...

Yes, demons can be exploited and benevolent beings called upon for assistance. I have to be careful about discussing that but if it's appropriate, the knowledge will find you so nothing is really hidden.

so as far as all the rituals go and the charms and amulets, things such as chakra and chi isn't there some that works on what you could say the Christians behalf?

I am not quite sure what you mean but I think Jesus had the basics down pretty solid. Messages of unity and giving are definitely of God, messages of division and hoarding are exactly the opposite. Giving does not mean giving everything away either; you're of better service to others if you can stand on your own.

Only reason I ask is because I figured if they hid the Hebrew name Yeshua from the world and gave them Jesus why wouldn't they hide other things that could help bring us closer to this Creator?

I think this and the admonitions stem from the fact that even if you take the light path, you will be tempted to use it selfishly regardless. Not all can resist and for those that may fall prey, it is better that they remain neutral than risk being swept into the darkness. Some fall into the notion that they can subvert the freewill of others to do good or by breaking the law of one in order to find fault with a particular group. Breaking the law of one is one of the greatest temptations (racism falls under this heading as well as the currently fashionable ostracizing of the wealthy).

Don't take this to mean that one approves of the incorrect actions but people must take care not to become oppressors even when corrective action seems justified.

Originally posted by hezekiah
I'm basically at the point where you WERE at I like knowing he knitty gritty too but also I do find the stories and the decoding you have to do with the Bible somewhat, fun..I consider it a challenge a preparation for the knowledge I seek beyond it.

I like them as well but I now understand them much better than I did before. The decoding is far more natural for me now. I cannot say I always get it right but epiphanies come far more frequently than before and it seems to be accelerating at a rapid pace.

reply to post by hezekiah


Far be it from me to put Christianity in a box, after all "...with God anything is possible." But it doesn't help to liken Christianity to a Dungeons and Dragons game either... with a +6 Blessed Chain Mail or a Healing spell.

Don't get me wrong Christianity is full of awe: magic, monsters, heroes, villains, prophecies, enchanted relics and the like but I kind of think you're missing the point:

The most important "spell" or "ritual" is simple, guileless prayer.

And the most enchanted object possible is YOU; your words, your actions, your thoughts...etc.

unfortunately since im a new member i cant u2u yet so this is for enlightenup and silent thunder:

the two of you seem to have the most understanding compared to most as of what my thread really regards, but as far as enlightened goes, you said calling on God led you to the occult and I'm wondering how is that?

Considering SOME do compare acts of the Occult to Satanism and i think it was in the "Occultism Isn't Satanism!" thread that someone said some do in fact work to worship demons as you may but as you can read from my thread my pursuit of this knowledge is polar opposite of that.

take Harry Potter for example in the series they are taught spells and theres even a dark arts teacher let's think of the masters of the dark arts to be satanists/antichrists..and harry potter in the gang are being taught to fight fire with fire I guess you would say but learning alternatives compared to what the masters of the dark arts use.

that seems to be whats being relayed to me in the books and films but lets drive it on home to reality where there is such a battle like that...my point is..considering all the doctrines dictated what to make it into the bible and what not and the thousands of people and books burned has led me to wonder besides prayers and reading the bible where are our practices??


Such as those who support the antagonist during this great controversy on the brink of Judgment Day.

Aren't there some for those who believe in the Most High, The Creator, Who Stated "I Am Who I Am" basically the Architectural Constructor of the Universe?

All of the things such as the kabbalah,chakra,chi,etc can't all be the works of the antagonist I feel they have been kept from the public because it can also be used against the antagonist if you would.

thanks monkcaw, it's not like I think my prayers are meaningless or anything and that God isn't listening it's just I'm trying to determine whats the point of all this other stuff too lol....

Originally posted by hezekiah
...as far as enlightened goes, you said calling on God led you to the occult and I'm wondering how is that?

It wasn't expected at all but I didn't put constraints on how I would receive the blessing. All I know is that I wanted it for another and within a few days the gateway to knowledge had opened. Much good has happened since then that will in turn benefit others.

I think in part it is related to the fact that knowledge would be increased in these times. Those who want to know God will be open to knowing him in his or her own way. The important part is knowing Him; that we reach for understanding.

Considering SOME do compare acts of the Occult to Satanism and i think it was in the "Occultism Isn't Satanism!" thread that someone said some do in fact work to worship demons as you may but as you can read from my thread my pursuit of this knowledge is polar opposite of that.

Actually, my pursuit of knowledge itself doesn't exclude the dark but I don't find any appeal in such practices. The dark is limited anyway it what it can know and achieve though it's easy to infer the dark by opposing the light. I can say for a fact that worshipping demons is not a part of the true knowledge and is highly admonished as doing that pulls you right off the path of where you should be heading. Those that fall into such practices are going into the darkness by attempting a shortcut to power. Power can be achieved but it's not the essential aim for attainment but more of a byproduct. Yes it can be used AND SHOULD BE USED but with the greatest care.

I would go so far as to say I don't worship anything at all. Truely, it all goes much deeper than how I understand the term and yet the core seems so simple in a way.

take Harry Potter for example in the series they are taught spells and theres even a dark arts teacher let's think of the masters of the dark arts to be satanists/antichrists..and harry potter in the gang are being taught to fight fire with fire I guess you would say but learning alternatives compared to what the masters of the dark arts use.

You can fight fire with fire. The way to do that is to use it for a benevolent purpose and not to pit it directly against the enemy in a destructive manner.

There are "dark wizards" who also do good in compensation to be able to maintain their powers. Many company execs. may fall into this category. The times of being able to sustain such practices (much less purely negative/self-destructive) without running headlong into "instant karma" are drawing to a close.

The world is becoming more polarized. Those attuned to more positive seem to be enjoying these times (while still deeply concerned for those less fortunate) whereas those attuned to the negative are scared to death like never before. The battle is waging as we speak.

I will also say the way things are presented in Harry Potter movies is really rather folklorish to me. It is a series of fiction books and movies afterall. There is occult symbolism there of course but not all negative. Really I don't see those as very negative at all.

that seems to be whats being relayed to me in the books and films but lets drive it on home to reality where there is such a battle like that...my point is..considering all the doctrines dictated what to make it into the bible and what not and the thousands of people and books burned has led me to wonder besides prayers and reading the bible where are our practices??


Such as those who support the antagonist during this great controversy on the brink of Judgment Day.

Baptism and Communion rites come to mind. Of what sort of practices are you speaking exactly? I have no religious upbringing whatsoever so I'm not even well versed in any particular religion or its practices.

Aren't there some for those who believe in the Most High, The Creator, Who Stated "I Am Who I Am" basically the Architectural Constructor of the Universe?

I suppose you have one right here. It is about Him, achieving oneness with Him by being aware of His presence in you and living it, though using various wordings to convey that. I guess alot is more or less gnostic in flavor (to my ears).

All of the things such as the kabbalah,chakra,chi,etc can't all be the works of the antagonist I feel they have been kept from the public because it can also be used against the antagonist if you would.

Besides that, I think they have been kept from the public to deny the public self-empowerment and self-reliance for the benefit of a few that desire worldly power and influence. I am no fan of organized religious institutions. They would have burned me at the stake just for seeking truth outside them. I thank God the times aren't that dark!

Maybe I just in effect restated what you said?

I won't claim to have everything right but it's been a crazy year and half or so of learning that I never expected.

Our universe in a simple sense has dual characteristics of experience.
E.G: Light/Dark, Wet/Dry, Good/Evil etc..
Without one we don't have opposites to provide alternative polarities.
If there were no evil, would we actually know what Good is? But then again maybe this is only human emotion.
I don't know if thats true, but I think that humans will agree (if they think about or have personally witnessed it); that there are examples of rage/compassion within the animal kingdom at large- so polarities therefore effect every-thing; just as the north/south magnetic polarities effects all even on a molecular level.

Go read the book of Enoch. It was part of the Dead Sea scrolls. You will find your answers there. Sorcery was part of the forbidden fruit.

Originally posted by Tazmek
Go read the book of Enoch. It was part of the Dead Sea scrolls. You will find your answers there. Sorcery was part of the forbidden fruit.

If you mean Chapter 65, I don't read it that way. It sounds like a warning similar to what I discussed earlier of what can happen. I could interpret the following text as that it prohibits mining and metal refining as well. But really it reads like a reference to the mental alchemical formula for refining the suble (spirit) from the gross (earthly/material).

What is the real danger? It's quite simple. As one becomes more polarized, the potentially to do harm is equal to the potential to do good and in the very good the potential to do harm is extreme, both to themselves and others.

Also, those who know and transgress anyway cannot use ignorance as an excuse.

Clearly Moses, Solomon and Jesus were all well practiced and it's seen that certain individuals receive the knowledge even today.

Who's on a dark path? By their fruits ye shall know them.


[edit on 3/27/2009 by EnlightenUp]