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Support Abortion? Watch this video and please defend your decisions...

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posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by Viral
 


You are comparing unwanted fetuses in the first stages of pregnancy to people who are already living without the help of a mother's womb. Personally this argument is flawed to me because one has nothing to do with the other. It's not a sound comparison.


It is analogous. The reason I asked that question is because those who favor abortion seem to base their argument on one of several premises: 1) The baby is not a "person," and thus it has no rights, 2) The baby has a progressing consciousness, but during the fetal stage its comparable to a "guppy fish," and so the rights of the mother override it, 3) the fetus is a full person, but the rights of the mother still override it. The question (seniors with Alzheimer's) aims to point out the weakness with the second premise.


Many anti-abortion people I know are conservatives who are against multiple forms of Welfare. Are you for Welfare? Are you for paying more for Welfare in taxes? The truth of the matter is all of these unwanted babies being born is going to cost a lot of money, they're going to end up in all kinds of foster care situations as well, and eventually we'll be paying for a good chunk of them who will be in and out of the prison system.


Do you know how each baby that is aborted would have turned out? I'll repeat a question I've asked already as well: Is life only as valuable as the amenities it brings? Welfare is a government program, and maybe I don't want to give a penny to the newborn orphan. Is that grounds for terminating it? Should we kill the homeless and unwanted orphans?


At the end of the day money isn't what is important though, raising a healthy human being is, but with without abortion millions more of unwanted children will be fighting against all the odds for a good life, and many will not succeed, many will not have the parental guidance they need to succeed. I ask anyone who is pro-life if they are willing to be a foster care parent for the rest of their lives. Are they willing to adopt? Are they willing to take any responsibility for the mass of unwanted children they wish to see brought into the world? If so then I believe your heart is in the right place, even if I disagree with you. If not, there’s no way your pro-life argument will ever gain any traction. It’s easy to say life is important and should be protected no matter what, what’s hard is showing that you actually believe this by supporting people’s lives once they get here.


By that logic, are you willing to perform an abortion? (rhetorical question) Again, this boils down to one question: If no one wants the fetus, should we terminate it? And if it is born, should we terminate the baby if no one is willing to raise it? Should we kill those who are suffering, to prevent further suffering by that logic?




posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by MattMulder
 


There are different kinds of adoption.
One is Open and the birthmother and father can keep up with the child as it grows and even help make decisions about it's upbringing!
Another one is Semi-Open adoption and the last is Closed adoption

I think if the guy KNOWS you are going to abort and agrees to it, he is every bit as guilty as the mother.

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Clearskies]

[edit on 26-3-2009 by Clearskies]



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by jasonjnelson
 

Starred and Flagged. I just wanted to thank you for posting this. As some of the abortion advocates have said, it won't convince them, but it does at least show them for what they truly are.

The Nazis defended killing Jews in the 1930's and 1940's by saying that they were subhuman. Today's murderers of babies defend their actions by denying that an unborn child is not human also. I guess they think they are pet rocks or something.

Anyway, some day, they will have to answer for their actions.

Yes, women have a right to their own body, but that does not extend to having the right to kill their own conceived child. It does include being smart enough not to get pregnant, if they do not want a child.

I won't argue with the abortionists, and won't reply to their lies, because that would be useless, just as it was useless to tell the Nazis that Jews were human. they knew that, but they also knew that people would use that to justify murder of innocent human beings.

The murder of an innocent who is unable to defend him/herself is the worst crime one can commit. Someday, maybe soon, those people will have to answer for their crime.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Viral
Again, this boils down to one question: If no one wants the fetus, should we terminate it? And if it is born, should we terminate the baby if no one is willing to raise it? Should we kill those who are suffering, to prevent further suffering by that logic?


What's this we? Do YOU terminate fetuses much??

You can all continue with your COMPLETELY emotional arguments all you want, abortions will go on, even if you managed to outlaw it in this country, people who want abortions will get them on the black market or in mexico, people already go there for dental services. Here's an idea, how bout you tell your religous nutcase pals that you should all start pushing condoms and birth control instead of abstinence, that might ACTUALLY make a dent. But no, you won't do that, you'll continue to scream to make abortion illegal, because you want to be able to FORBID FORBID FORBID in the name of YOUR values, while at the SAME F-ING TIME, support wars in the name of freedom in which fully formed children are mutilated DAILY. You are ALL hypocrites.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
I think if the guy KNOWS you are going to abort and agrees to it, he is every bit as guilty as the mother.


Guilty of what? Abortion is still legal, sorry to burst your bubble.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by Viral
 



The question (seniors with Alzheimer's) aims to point out the weakness with the second premise.

But people with Alzheimer’s are not fetuses that need a woman’s womb to survive. They are two very different forms of life.

Do you know how each baby that is aborted would have turned out? I'll repeat a question I've asked already as well: Is life only as valuable as the amenities it brings? Welfare is a government program, and maybe I don't want to give a penny to the newborn orphan. Is that grounds for terminating it? Should we kill the homeless and unwanted orphans?

So you’re not willing to pay to support these kids or to raise them yourself but you expect someone else to, even people that don’t want to carry a pregnancy to term. If the people who don’t want abortions won’t take responsibility for these children then how can you ask someone else to carry a baby to term knowing full well that possibly no one will take responsibility for its well being?

By that logic, are you willing to perform an abortion? (rhetorical question) Again, this boils down to one question: If no one wants the fetus, should we terminate it? And if it is born, should we terminate the baby if no one is willing to raise it? Should we kill those who are suffering, to prevent further suffering by that logic?

If I was a doctor I absolutely would, I would help pay for one for a friend or drive them to the clinic.
That’s a silly question though. If no one wants a fetus I think termination should be an option. Comparing that to every situation with every suffering person on the planet is a ridiculous, unrealistic stretch.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


The decision is the woman's to make. When the time comes, if the time comes, she may have to answer to her God.

She does not have to answer to you or anyone else. And, you have no right to judge others. That is not your place nor the place of society.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by 27jd
 


Guilty of premeditated murder.
And yes I eat meat.
Lamb, chicken, beef. That's what it's for.
(unless they are a pet)
But, that's partly why they are starving in some places in India, where it's forbidden to eat a cow.
People are not animals, are they?



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by Viral
 



Do you know how each baby that is aborted would have turned out?


No but I can follow the unwanted pregnancy studies.

How many unwanted children are adopted? There's been declines all over the world of adoption. www.abc.net.au...
What happens to children that don't get adopted? The end up in foster care usually or a form of foster care.
Here is a great site that answers what happens to them in detail with collected data:

Statistics & Research
The Children's Bureau provides State and national data on adoption and foster care, child abuse and neglect, and child welfare. The Children's Bureau also funds research in collaboration with other organizations.
www.acf.hhs.gov...


This is a really good read as well: www.thenationalcampaign.org...


Both unintended and unwanted childbearing can have negative health, social, and psychological consequences. Health problems include greater chances for illness and death for both mother and child. In addition, such childbearing has been linked with a variety of social problems, including divorce, poverty, child abuse, and juvenile delinquency. In one study, unwanted children were found less likely to have had a secure family life. As adults they were more likely to engage in criminal behavior, be on welfare, and receive psychiatric services. Another found that children who were unintended by their mothers had lower self-esteem than their intended peers 23 years later.

This site list a lot of good Additional references (where they got their information) on the bottom of the page. www.prochoiceforum.org.uk...

One of the biggest issues with unwanted pregnancies is that many involve teenagers. Pro-lifers usually support poor sexual education for teens that causes more unwanted pregnancies and funnily enough, more abortions.

The children of teenage mothers have lower birth weights, are more likely to perform poorly in school, and are at greater risk of abuse and neglect.
www.familyfirstaid.org...
www.theodora.com...


Teen pregnancy is an important issue. There are health risks for the baby and children born to teenage mothers are more likely to suffer health, social, and emotional problems. Women who become pregnant during their teens have an increased risk for complications, such as premature labor and socioeconomic consequences as well.
www.womenshealthchannel.com...


The consequences are often grave. For children born of children, chances of low birth weight and prematurity are high. So are instances of parental abuse, poor health, neglect and poverty. The majority of teenage mothers also face a bleak future. Often forced to drop out of school, these young women face a life of diminished expectations.

www.teenpregnancy.com...

Abortion helps to decrease this issue:

Did Abortion Legalization Reduce the Number Of Unwanted Children?
CONCLUSIONS: The estimated effect of abortion legalization on adoption rates is sizable and can account for much of the decline in adoptions, particularly of children born to white women, during the early 1970s. These findings support previous studies' conclusions that abortion legalization led to a reduction in the number of "unwanted" children; such a reduction may have improved average infant health and children's living conditions.

www.guttmacher.org...



[edit on 26-3-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


I can't adopt, because of my husbands old felony record.
But, when it's off, we might.

I used to take care of an alzheimer patient, it's almost as hard as an infant!



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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OK OK we all talk about womens rights.

Hey what about the men's right? Why can't the man kill the baby after it's born, because the baby sure is gonna be a hassle, that's for sure.

Just kidding!!!!!

But seriously, I think they should put the time limit down for abortion, there is some evidence that after a certain amount of weeks, the baby is sucking it's thumb, and it can start to feel, which inclues any pain from a abortion.

So basically they need to put the time limit to before that.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
Guilty of premeditated murder.
And yes I eat meat.
Lamb, chicken, beef. That's what it's for.
(unless they are a pet)
But, that's partly why they are starving in some places in India, where it's forbidden to eat a cow.
People are not animals, are they?


At least you freely admit you're a hypocrite. Life is life. We're all "children" of the earth. People are actually animals, we just grew intelligent to a point that we actually got stupider and decided the earth revolves around us, like your post indicates. The universe can and will show us how wrong we are, with a nice fiery asteroid impact or something along those lines, it'll happen, not if but when.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


High school children aren't even taught about marriage anymore.
I think a lot of parents worry what there children WILL learn, such as gay relations, "do what you want, but wear a condom, they work 99% of the time."
"If you get pregnant, our school has a planned parenthood affiliate", etc.....
A morality 'hands-off' approach.
MY 11 year old already knows what a condoms for and he hasn't even had phys-ed, yet!



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 



I can't adopt, because of my husbands old felony record.
But, when it's off, we might.

Why might? If you’re going to rant and rave about abortion have the guts to help unwanted children by giving them a place where they are wanted. There’s tons of ways to help kids in the system without adopting as well if you don’t have the means. I just want people to stop complaining about how much they care about the life of the unborn baby if they never intend to help better the lives of unwanted children.


I used to take care of an alzheimer patient, it's almost as hard as an infant!

That does not make them comparable to a fetus that can not survive outside of a womb.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


I have no problem with time limits.

In fact, I support abortion only in the first trimester. Anything after that (except when the mother's life is in danger) should not be allowed.

But, a woman should always have the option to choose to end the pregnancy up until the end of the first trimester.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by Clearskies
I think if the guy KNOWS you are going to abort and agrees to it, he is every bit as guilty as the mother.


Guilty of what? Abortion is still legal, sorry to burst your bubble.


I think he meant morally guilty.

The thing about morals thou, everyone has different morals.

The world is never so black and white, there's a lot of grey, which is why this subject is such a complicated and heated subject.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 



High school children aren't even taught about marriage anymore.
I think a lot of parents worry what there children WILL learn, such as gay relations, "do what you want, but wear a condom, they work 99% of the time."
"If you get pregnant, our school has a planned parenthood affiliate", etc.....
A morality 'hands-off' approach.
MY 11 year old already knows what a condoms for and he hasn't even had phys-ed, yet!


I don't find this relevant unless you can show that it is related to unwanted pregnancies. The research shows it is not a lack of marriage education, or has anything to do with gay related issues, it is a lack of sexual education.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


"Rant and Rave"?
I have worked at a crisis pregnancy center.
I have given LOTS of money to help orphans and pregnancy centers, which provide diapers, food, clothing, furniture, mental counseling and job searches for women in an unwanted pregnancy!
So, yeah I HAVE put my money where my mouth is.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by skeptic1
 


I agree. I don't support abortion after the first trimester either. I support the right to own a gun, but I don't want violent offenders owning them. I believe everything should have its limits. I hope that makes sense.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by skeptic1
reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


I have no problem with time limits.

In fact, I support abortion only in the first trimester. Anything after that (except when the mother's life is in danger) should not be allowed.

But, a woman should always have the option to choose to end the pregnancy up until the end of the first trimester.


Yes.

This really is a subject that confuses me to this day, I can't pick a side, I'm leaning more towards the no abortion side, but like I said in the previous post, I know how life, morals and all things into consideration is never as black and white as we like to think, there's a lot of grey there, which is sad, I wish it was simple.

What confuses me is, if I was a pregnant woman, that would mean it is not just MY body anymore, there's someone else inside of me now, it's not just my body anymore. So the problem is, at what time does this somebody really become a somebody inside of you? At what point does this fetus become a person?

Very complicated.



[edit on 26-3-2009 by _Phoenix_]



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