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Study: Religion steadily declining, generation by generation

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posted on Mar, 25 2009 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Unit541
My god doesn't approve of your religion. Which one of our religions is false?


your question is in a way loaded. you assuming that both religions are just beliefs and nothing more, therefore it would be your word against mine.

adjust your POV for a moment and assume that the god of the bible does exist and is very much like the bible describes him.

if said god does not approve of idol worship for example, then religions that worship idols would be ¨false¨

it really is as simple as that.

the problem is, that i dont see things the way you do. i believe the god of the bible to be a real person, and i believe that what he promises will come true.

if i am wrong, then im wrong. but if im right, then organized false religion will be destroyed soon.

you may not believe me, which is fine, im not here to convince you. but these are my beliefs.




posted on Mar, 25 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Unit541
My god doesn't approve of your religion. Which one of our religions is false? Every religion claims to be the true and correct religion, all others being false.


Good point-its been said before that organised religions fighting,bickering and squabbling amongst themselves about legitimacy is akin to young children pointlessly arguing about who's got the best imaginary friend.

Because its all just opinion and theres absolutely no evidence to give one sect dominion over the other,all these arguments are destined to go on forever and be cyclical (and futile) in nature.

I'd wager that if certain 'religious extremists' were born in a different geographical location and indoctrinated in a different non provable beleif system then they would be on these boards fervently extolling the virtues of the different faith and denouncing all the other organised religions - including their own.
Perhaps the radical extremist mindset has far more to do with environment and
conditioning than anything else.
Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Mar, 25 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


Originally posted by karl 12
I'd wager that if certain 'religious extremists' were born in a different geographical location and indoctrinated in a different non provable beleif system then they would be on these boards fervently extolling the virtues of the different faith and denouncing all the other organised religions - including their own.

I've heard this said a lot, and for once, due to hilarious placement of replies, I get this:


Originally posted by karl 12
...its all just opinion and theres absolutely no evidence


Which is true! Your scenario is IMPOSSIBLE to prove.



posted on Mar, 25 2009 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
your question is in a way loaded. you assuming that both religions are just beliefs and nothing more, therefore it would be your word against mine.

Yes, it was a loaded question. No disagreement there.


Originally posted by miriam0566
adjust your POV for a moment and assume that the god of the bible does exist and is very much like the bible describes him.

if said god does not approve of idol worship for example, then religions that worship idols would be ¨false¨

it really is as simple as that.

Do you mind adjusting your POV for a moment? Asking me to assume something is asking me to believe, not know. To believe because somebody told me. To believe without having evidence supporting the belief.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm certainly not attacking you or your beliefs, but the fact that the question was loaded does not mean it's not relevant. You have no right to claim any other religion is false, just because you believe yours. The fact of the matter, is that neither you nor anyone else, can determine which religion, if any, is true and correct, and which one(s) are false. Any argument you make against another religion can be made against your own. An exercise in futility if you will.


Originally posted by miriam0566
the problem is, that i dont see things the way you do. i believe the god of the bible to be a real person, and i believe that what he promises will come true.

if i am wrong, then im wrong. but if im right, then organized false religion will be destroyed soon.

you may not believe me, which is fine, im not here to convince you. but these are my beliefs.

Why is seeing something different from someone else a problem? It shouldn't be. We'd still be huddling in caves and grunting if human kind shared only a single perspective.

And I respect your beliefs. You should respect others in the same way by not accusing their religions of being false.

edit for bbcode

[edit on 3/25/2009 by Unit541]

[edit on 3/25/2009 by Unit541]



posted on Mar, 25 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by Unit541
 


I understand your points, it's live and let live, with respect, I get it.

But the Sovereign of the universe, has no need to be politically correct, like we need to be so we don't offend others. He owns the truth and reality.

So don't be surprised if once in a while, this doesn't get reflected from those trying to serve him out of frustration, with people bound to a false dichotomy.

Because they are being kept blind to the truth, and it threatens there lives.

2 Corinthians 4:1-6
1 Therefore, since God in his mercy has given us this new way, we never give up. 2 We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this.
3 If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. 4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
5 You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.



posted on Mar, 25 2009 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by Daniem
 


I think the 2004 elections had a lot to do with it.

It became a very divisive problem, Reps said Dems were anti Christian if they voted for Kerry etc.

It was horrible, in fact, I did not want to go anywhere near a church for a very long time. I am still not settled with how a line was drawn.

The Christian coalition has become so judgemental.

Sorry, but too many people also use religon as a tool, instead of a worship of God.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by karl 12
Because its all just opinion and theres absolutely no evidence to give one sect dominion over the other,all these arguments are destined to go on forever and be cyclical (and futile) in nature.


i disagree.

i have investigated thoroughly this for the past 15 years or so of my life. i have found that 99.9% of ¨sects¨ do not follow the bible. they may quote scripture, but in the end they completely miss the point of the passages.

even taking the bible itself. ive found evidence that it is divine in nature. and i dont mean that god came to me in some dream or anything like that. i mean that i see evidence that the bible itself was not only inspired by god, but also protected by him.

i guess what im saying is that if you have an open mind, you see that sometimes people see evidence that maybe you dont see (for whatever reason)



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Unit541
Do you mind adjusting your POV for a moment? Asking me to assume something is asking me to believe, not know. To believe because somebody told me. To believe without having evidence supporting the belief.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm certainly not attacking you or your beliefs, but the fact that the question was loaded does not mean it's not relevant. You have no right to claim any other religion is false, just because you believe yours. The fact of the matter, is that neither you nor anyone else, can determine which religion, if any, is true and correct, and which one(s) are false. Any argument you make against another religion can be made against your own. An exercise in futility if you will.


i see what you are saying, but i disagree. but im not sure how to explain this without the biblical POV. ill try both if you can be patient with me.

biblical POV - moses vs. pharaoh

moses says to pharaoh that he should let the Israelites go into the wilderness to worship their god. pharaoh refuses, mocking god.

keep in mind pharaoh had his own gods. gods that the egyptians thought were very real. they even thought that pharaoh himself was a god incarnate.

so which was right?

well in the end, moses was. pharaoh himself was humiliated and eventually killed. the egyptian people were not protected by their gods. so you can say that their belief was just as valid as moses´, but was it? in the end someone was right and someone was wrong.

secular POV - peak oil, believers vs nonbelievers

some feel that oil is finite and that oil production will begin to decline. some feel that it wont and that these are simply scare tactics.

technically, both views are ¨valid¨, after all people can believe whatever they want right? however you cant believe both. either the oil is running out or its not.

in the future, one group will be right and the other will be wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------

there are many things that are true about this universe. and alot of it has to do with POV.

i love sushi. someone else may not. this is one of many ¨grey¨ senarios where there is no right or wrong.

but the existance of grey doesnt mean that there arent black and white senarios. if you jump off a 20 story building, you WILL get hurt, no matter what you ¨believe¨.

the difference in our opinion isnt which religion is right. you view it as a grey issue, i view it as black and white.



Why is seeing something different from someone else a problem? It shouldn't be. We'd still be huddling in caves and grunting if human kind shared only a single perspective.

And I respect your beliefs. You should respect others in the same way by not accusing their religions of being false.


i do respect them. but that doesnt mean i have to agree.

if someone tells me im going to hell to burn forever in agonizing torment, i will disagree. i will think that they are wrong. i might even show them why i think that they are mistaken. that doesnt mean that i dont respect their views.

the bible says that babylon the great will be done away with. it is my understanding that she is ¨false religion¨. that is my belief.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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double post sorry

[edit on 26-3-2009 by miriam0566]



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
i see what you are saying, but i disagree. but im not sure how to explain this without the biblical POV. ill try both if you can be patient with me.

biblical POV - moses vs. pharaoh

moses says to pharaoh that he should let the Israelites go into the wilderness to worship their god. pharaoh refuses, mocking god.

keep in mind pharaoh had his own gods. gods that the egyptians thought were very real. they even thought that pharaoh himself was a god incarnate.

so which was right?

well in the end, moses was. pharaoh himself was humiliated and eventually killed. the egyptian people were not protected by their gods. so you can say that their belief was just as valid as moses´, but was it? in the end someone was right and someone was wrong.


I'm sorry, but this is not a relevant rebuttal to my previous statement. In the story, the pharaoh is wrong in his intolerance. However, we still have no idea weather the moses's god is any more true and correct than the pharaoh's god. Perhaps the pharaoh's account of what happened is that moses was humiliated and eventually killed. Your belief system is your only source of information regarding the events you speak of. By it's very nature, belief systems are believed, not known. Belief systems cannot be proven. If and when they are, they cease to be belief systems, and become historical fact.

Your beliefs tell you the Egyptian people were not protected by their gods. There are no facts to corroborate that. Even if there were facts indicating their gods abandoned them, that doesn't mean their gods were any more or less real than your god. It just means that their gods abandoned them.


Originally posted by miriam0566
secular POV - peak oil, believers vs nonbelievers

some feel that oil is finite and that oil production will begin to decline. some feel that it wont and that these are simply scare tactics.

technically, both views are ¨valid¨, after all people can believe whatever they want right? however you cant believe both. either the oil is running out or its not.

in the future, one group will be right and the other will be wrong.

This is even less relevant than your first response.

Some people think we're close to exhausting our oil supply, some think we're not. The fact that oil is a finite resource is not debatable. Saying the earth holds an infinite amount of oil is like saying your glass can hold an infinite amount of water. Our rock is only so big, and if oil is consumed at a rate faster than mother nature can produce it, we will eventually run out. Since the oil we extract from the earth was created millions of years ago, I think it's safe to say we're using it faster than it's being created.


Originally posted by miriam0566
there are many things that are true about this universe. and alot of it has to do with POV.

Truth has nothing to do with perspective. That's exactly what makes a fact a fact.


Originally posted by miriam0566
i love sushi. someone else may not. this is one of many ¨grey¨ senarios where there is no right or wrong.

This is hardly equivalent to proclaiming other religions are false.
There is no right or wrong because the appeal of sushi is relative.
"miriam0566 thinks sushi tastes good" is a fact.
"sushi tastes good" is not a fact.

In the context of this discussion, you could factually state "I believe these other religions are false.". This is factual because it is true, that you believe they are false. You could not however, factually state that "these other religions are false". You can believe they're false, but you can't prove it.


Originally posted by miriam0566
but the existance of grey doesnt mean that there arent black and white senarios. if you jump off a 20 story building, you WILL get hurt, no matter what you ¨believe¨.

the difference in our opinion isnt which religion is right. you view it as a grey issue, i view it as black and white.

And you view it as black and white because you believe your religion is true and correct, and you believe all others are false. Nothing has changed though, you still can't prove your belief to be true.

However, there's nothing wrong with that. It's kind of like asking someone to prove they love someone. It can't be done.

In the end, it's all about tolerance. Proclaiming other religions are false is not tolerant. You can't tell someone that you respect their beliefs, and in the same breath say that their religion is false.

There is a certain amount of intolerance that is inherent to all major religions, and this discussion reveals that part of yours. If you look, you'll find the same thing in every other religion. Then again, if you look, you'll find that nearly every religion is telling the same stories, and teaching the same things, as yours does. Humanity wars over what they've named their belief systems, not their actual beliefs. If we'd stop trying to convert each other for just a moment, we'd realize our beliefs are all quite similar.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Yes,you're right- its all impossible to prove because the foundation of all organised religion lies in speculation,conjecture,heresay,rumour and guesswork.
Thats why its called faith and not fact.

If a thing were a fact you wouldn't have to have faith in it would you?

I'm all for people beleiving what they want - in fact if you started off a cult worshipping a giant turnip who rules the cosmos then this beleif system would have just as much credibility,feasibility,plausibility and viability as any other organised religion-including the abrahamic sects.

Where it becomes 'dangerously sociopathic' is when extremists of any given cult/sect start deluding themselves they are somehow more holy/chosen/saved/special/superior to other human beings.
I think this (painfully predictable) mindset is more about wholly insecure,selfish and childish people abusing cult logic rather than any sincere regard for spirituality.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by karl 12
 

I'm not sure what organised religion has to do with an experiment involving magically reincarnating people and placing them in a different geographical location and culture.




Originally posted by karl 12
Where it becomes 'dangerously sociopathic' is when extremists of any given cult/sect start deluding themselves they are somehow more holy/chosen/saved/special/superior to other human beings.

But seriously, that is an absurd demand.
The very reason we choose something, and decide to put ourselves on one side of the fence is because we've had some experience, or we've seen something that leads us to that side of the fence.

"My eating habits are superior to ALL CANNIBALS". I find myself superior to ALL CANNIBALS in that regard."

"I do not smoke. I find that there must be something amiss in ALL SMOKERS (peer pressure, long drawn-out addiction, lack of knowledge, stubbornness), otherwise they wouldn't be smoking!"


Nobody on earth says "I am a Republican, but the Democrats are equally valid and correct". You choose a side because it is the right one!

And while you COULD add "I believe..." instead of "This is fact..." to every statement you ever utter (because otherwise it wouldn't be true), that is an absurd demand to make on someone, because the very act of having words come out of someone's mouth shows that it is their opinion and nobody else's! There is no reason to desire molly-coddling or sugarcoating something like that, unless you are actually fearful or scared that your opinion might not be true, and thus want to soften the other person's belief by saying "But that is only your opinion!" or "But that is only what you believe!".

So to say that you find it troublesome that other people consider themselves superior to you because of their opinions and beliefs is a little naive, because such a thing is practiced by probably every single person on earth, including yourself. I've seen you use phrases implying mental deficiency in 'believers' many many times on these forums.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by babloyi]

[edit on 27-3-2009 by babloyi]



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by Unit541
This is hardly equivalent to proclaiming other religions are false.
There is no right or wrong because the appeal of sushi is relative.
"miriam0566 thinks sushi tastes good" is a fact.
"sushi tastes good" is not a fact.

In the context of this discussion, you could factually state "I believe these other religions are false.". This is factual because it is true, that you believe they are false. You could not however, factually state that "these other religions are false". You can believe they're false, but you can't prove it.


in a way yes, this is my point.

logically there are different ways of looking at it

there are situations that are grey. what i mean is that they are relative. like you said, ¨sushi tastes good¨ is not a fact. there is no possible way i can prove that sushi is good. it is completely 100% up to POV.

alot of things in life fall into this category. we all live our lives differently with different preferences.

however, my point is that this doesnt not exclude the possibility of black and white issues. one cannot say that because sushi cannot be proven to be good that implies that nothing can be proven to be good.

as i pointed out before. if a person chooses to do something foolish, like leap off a roof of a tall building, it really wont matter what he believes in. he can convince himself that he is superman, but that doesnt mean that his belief is relative. its wrong. he will hit the ground with the same force and consequence as the rest of us.

i noted the difference between the 2 ways of thinking because its important for our survival to understand what knowledge is real, and what is relative.

you (not sure if you are atheist or what) categorize religion in the grey folder. simply a system of relative beliefs that cannot be proven.

i on the other hand categorize it under black and white. for me, the ¨proof¨ is evident. i cant look at it any other why because i ¨see¨ it.

i could try to convince you, but experience has shown me that evidence too can be a relative thing as some people will not except certain evidence for whatever reason. as such i said before that i wouldnt try to prove myself in this particular thread.

the heaviest ¨proof¨would be some sort of act on the part of god that cannot be mistaken for anything else. god has not done any such act recently. and even if he did, we see how fast such accounts are dismissed as ¨folklore¨. (i doubt any atheists actually believe jesus cured anyone miraculously for example)

however the lack of such heavy proof doesnt mean that christians are wrong. they could very well be right, but for those that dont see the evidence, its one of those ¨time will tell¨ senarios.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by karl 12
Yes,you're right- its all impossible to prove because the foundation of all organised religion lies in speculation,conjecture,heresay,rumour and guesswork.
Thats why its called faith and not fact.

If a thing were a fact you wouldn't have to have faith in it would you?`


the bible does not imply in any way that faith is blind.

hebrews denotes faith as an assured expectation of things hoped for. the word faith is related to the word trust.

if you needed to run an errand, but you didnt want to leave your car unattended, would you trust someone in the street, a person you never met before who you dont know, with the keys?

you would be stupid to put blind faith (or trust) in a person like that.

if however you have a trusted friend with you, you would be assured of the expectation that your car would be there when you get back.

faith is not ¨believing in what cannot be proven¨, it is having trust in god that he will keep his promises.


I'm all for people beleiving what they want - in fact if you started off a cult worshipping a giant turnip who rules the cosmos then this beleif system would have just as much credibility,feasibility,plausibility and viability as any other organised religion-including the abrahamic sects.


did turnips free their followers from enslavement in another nation? do turnips speak from mountain tops? what about splitting seas?

abrahamic ¨sects¨prevailed exactly because those that followed it were convinced that it was the right thing to do.

i hate to put it this way, but your assumption is based on other assumptions.


Where it becomes 'dangerously sociopathic' is when extremists of any given cult/sect start deluding themselves they are somehow more holy/chosen/saved/special/superior to other human beings.
I think this (painfully predictable) mindset is more about wholly insecure,selfish and childish people abusing cult logic rather than any sincere regard for spirituality.


so what you are saying is that because i believe my religion is ¨right¨, im childish, dangerous, sociopathic, extreme, delusional, insecure, selfish, and insincere?



posted on Apr, 10 2009 @ 03:15 AM
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reply to post by Unit541
 




In the end, it's all about tolerance. Proclaiming other religions are false is not tolerant. You can't tell someone that you respect their beliefs, and in the same breath say that their religion is false


If someone is catholic, baptist, methodist, Jehovas Witnesses, Pentacostal, Eastern Othodox, Lutheran, Prespyterian, etc. I can call them false all I want. They all claim to be christian as I do but all of those religions contradict the bible in one way or another. I will not stand here and call a muslim wrong or a wiccan wrong just because we are not the same religion but when someone claims christianity but follows the doctrine of man or denomination instead of the Word of God, I don't hesitate to call b.s. to those believers. Prove the rapture. Prove sunday worship. Prove christmas and easter. Prove we go to heaven or hell. Prove Jesus, God and Spirit were all one being! It can't be done in the pages of the Holy Bible! Jesus said to live by "every word of God" and that "all scripture is God's inspired word." If a sect of christianity changes those words or reasons around it, there's a problem. That's the biggest problem with christianity today. Too many people listening to the petaphi.... I mean priests instead of reading what's really in the pages of the best selling book to ever exist on the planet. Be athiest all you want. I respect your view of non-belief but I know what got you there. Christians of multiple denominations claiming to be right and everyone else to be wrong yet they contradict the very book their religion is based on. My brother is athiest and the two of us discuss religion often. He even wished me happy Passover yesterday! That's right, a true christian celebrates Passover, since it was the Holy Day that Jesus was actually crucified on... not "good friday". He didn't rise on easter sunday... it was saturday before sunset, on the sabbath! These things are in the bible but most christains refuse to study up on it. not to mention the fact that holidays like easter and christmas are plagued with paganism and idolatry! So in closing, I will call other sects of christianity wrong and false till my eyes bleed while respecting all other religions. It's similar to two black guys calling each other the "n" word but an outside race saying that word is politically incorrect. Can't knock me for calling b.s. on another christian if I'm a christian too. Jesus was a jew and called other jews hypocrites for believing different from what scripture really said. It's also said in the bible to live the ways of Jesus, so I'll call out a hypocrite christian when I see one. That's all for now.



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