Good or Bad - Everything is natural

The universe is made up of matter + energy which can neither be created or destroyed and was already present billions of years before we humans were. We humans consist of matter + energy that the universe has been provided for our making.

Everything that happens within the universe is simply matter + energy interacing with matter + energy.

Let's say, some humans decide to build atomic bombs and blow most cities on the planet to bits. This would be perfectly natural because it would be humans (that consist of matter + energy) interacting with materials and equipment such as computers and uranium (matter + energy) to cause a nuclear explosion (matter + energy) that would annihilate miilions of people (that consist of matter + energy).

Regardless of how good. bad. blissful or abhorent anything may be, everything that takes place within the universe is natural because everything within the universe consists of matter + energy interacting with matter + energy.

Wasps (matter + energy) interacting with wood (matter + energy) to make a paper nest ( matter + energy) is all perfectly natural - Just as humans (matter + energy) interacting with materials/technology (matter + energy) to make plastics (matter + energy) that don't decay for thousands of years is also perfectly natural.

Regardless of how right. wrong, commendable or dispicable something may be, everything that takes place within our matter/energy comprised universe is all very natural.

Scenario 1

If a community of people in Africa are being stalked and preyed upon by a pride of lions, that community of people can build fences and use other methods of defence to protect themselves against those lions. Everything within this scenario is matter + energy interacting with matter + energy, which is all perfectly natural.

Scenario 2

After the community of people have fenced themselves off from the lions, they find that they are being stalked and preyed upon by a fellow human. who just happens to be a sadistic, butchering psychopath.
Once again, everything within this scenario is perfectly natural, because all interactions, processes and outcomes are simply matter + energy interacting with matter + energy; all matter and energy that has been provided by a universe that was here long before we were.

[edit on 23-3-2009 by BetweenMyths]

Let's say, some humans decide to build atomic bombs and blow most cities on the planet to bits. This would be perfectly natural because it would be humans (that consist of matter + energy) interacting with materials/equipment such as computers and uranium (matter + energy) to cause a nuclear explosion (matter + energy) that would annihilate miilions of people (that consist of matter + energy).

Actually you couldn't be further from the truth in the above quote. It seems to me that you are heartless, and you know nothing about the universe, or nature.

I believe you are mixing the words "natural" and "possible". Just because something is "possible" doesn't make it "natural".

The universe is naturally beautiful, and everything made in it is beautiful. Humans are supposed to be born naturally beautiful, but the greed and selfishness of the elders, and others, effects the young, and a new generation of greed and selfishness it born.

It isn't supposed to be like this......

Killing, stealing, greed, selfishness, destruction, none of that is beautiful, it's ugly. Ugly is unnatural.

What is natural is a lion killing it's pray so that it can eat it, and live off it. LIFE FOR LIFE. If the lion killed it, and then just left it for dead, it killed it in vain. But if it ate it, and feed it to its offspring, it killed it for a reason, for LIFE.

Humans are falling further from grace every day. Humans are literally turning their backs to nature, and nature's ways, and they are doing things their own ugly way. Humans are special, supposed to be "Children of Grace", but they are slowly turning into "Children of Greed".

I suggest you look up the word natural again..
dictionary.reference.com...

Seems to me that refining fissionable nuclear material is about as UN-natural a process as I can imagine. Certainly nuclear fussion and fission and other interactions occur in nature, but not on the order of refinement, at least as I understand it, which is required for nuclear bombs. There's nothing natural about it. We did it, us humans, and WAY before we had the maturity to intelligently harness it.

Edit to add: I think the point you are trying to make is an interesting one, but perhaps you put too visceral of an edge into it to invite discussion in that direction.

Cheers

[edit on 23-3-2009 by argentus]

reply to post by BetweenMyths


I dunno, I would hope most people would understand that concept by now. Though there are quite a few believers in metaphysics and magic here. So I guess I'm a bit confused on your overall point... because by and large we know that everything that happens is natural. What I find most people have contention with is the disconnect some have over human intervention within our environments, because we posses an intelligence that can change our environments to suit our needs. Un-natural, in this regard, is seen as a sin - because we are using our intelligence to help exert our will over the Earth, often with disastrous results. It's tantamount to rape.

On the other hand, if the human body (which includes a brain structure capable of intelligently guided free will) is an expression of DNA - then it can be argued that what the body creates can also be considered an expression of DNA. Be it the Mona Lisa or a Cluster Bomb. Our cities and structures are no more outside of the normal expression of life than giant termite colonies.

Our free will is influenced by our behaviors. Our behaviors are influenced by our genetics. Therefore, nothing within the realm of human experience/condition is outside of - or in contrast to nature. It's merely a different expression of it.

I started a thread a about the same topic a while ago, but it didn't get many views/replies. If you care to explore my rationality behind this a bit more, you're welcome to peruse my drunken ramblings.

it really depends how you define ''natural''


the universe as we know it, is indeed a duality. There would be no such thing as beauty without its polar opposite, hideousness....these are all words that are used to describe matter which is made up of energy.

We all have our own set of understandings for words and therein lies their power, for we can all interpret any word in a multitude of ways depending on countless factors.

When describing an atomic holocaust I wouldn't necessarily use the word ''natural'' but remembering that the universe is a duality(everything has it's opposite) you are absolutely correct and incorrect, simultaneously. I cannot stress the profoundness of that statement, for it has many implications of particular value for the psyche.

Even my understanding of my universe being a duality is completely wrong and right at the same time. In my reality I am right. In another's I am wrong and there is no absolute truth.

What I may perceive as beauty can and is the exact opposite of what another perceives as beauty. To someone the mushroom cloud of an atomic bomb is a beautiful thing...to another even the sheer power of something so small can be perceived as a beautiful thing...to others the reverse. Just because there is a mainstream train of thought of what is culturally beautiful, doesn't mean it is right all the time. As long as there is one thought there will be its opposite, which will both be right and wrong simultaneously.

reply to post by argentus

Seems to me that refining fissionable nuclear material is about as UN-natural a process as I can imagine. Certainly nuclear fussion and fission and other interactions occur in nature, but not on the order of refinement

We're not creating fissionable material though. All we're doing is redistributing them. First by condensing from a wide area to a very small area, then to a slightly larger area along with a whole lot of energy. Everything is here, we're simply recombining and reorganizing them.

reply to post by Lasheic


You're refining a matrix of various minerals into a precise compact substance through the use of a series of operations using MAD-MADE machines and processes involving complex equations and precise measurement and this operation is repeated until the required density of material is arrived at. This operation is as "natural" as human music. It is created, not arrived at through geological evolution or natural processes.

If you just want to say "whatever happens is natural", then I think you have to define natural as processes which exclude entropy.

I don't think that works.

reply to post by Lasheic

In the words of a friend of mine: 'we are all children of the universe and nothing we do can be unnatural.'

The OP is absolutely right. And so are you, when you say

It can be argued that what the body creates can also be considered an expression of DNA. Be it the Mona Lisa or a Cluster Bomb. Our cities and structures are no more outside of the normal expression of life than giant termite colonies.

Our cluster bombs and Mona Lisas are expressions of what Richard Dawkins calls our extended phenotype.

Flagged thread.

[edit on 23/3/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by ALLis0NE

Actually you couldn't be further from the truth in the above quote. It seems to me that you are heartless, and you know nothing about the universe, or nature.

Actually, he's more or less correct - and it is you who does not appear to have a tenable understanding of the universe.

The universe is naturally beautiful, and everything made in it is beautiful. Humans are supposed to be born naturally beautiful, but the greed and selfishness of the elders, and others, effects the young, and a new generation of greed and selfishness it born.

Beauty is an abstract concept, and subjective to the viewer. Most life that we know of is incapable of higher thought processes needed to understand the concept of beauty, and the ones that do generally appear to be mammalian. The vast majority of life doesn't have any conventional sensory input at all, nor a brain, because the vast majority of life (both in volume and diversity) is single-cellular.

So what you're doing here, is anthropomorphizing the universe by giving it attributes known only to exist within the realm of the human condition.

The universe is neither beautiful or ugly. It's neither moral or immoral. It's inert. It's matter and energy, interacting with matter and energy.

Hell, the VAST majority of the universe is completely and utterly invisible to us. Matter, as we are familiar with it, is really just a trace constituent of the whole. If we're right about Dark Matter and Dark Energy, then the rough estimation is that the matter we interact with is accountable for only about 13% of the total universe. And note, I'm not referring this to the universe's volume.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that we can only detect extremely narrow bands of the audio and visual spectrum. In regards to what the universe actually is... we're pretty much totally blind and need to rely on technology to reveal the universe to us.

What is natural is a lion killing it's pray so that it can eat it, and live off it. LIFE FOR LIFE. If the lion killed it, and then just left it for dead, it killed it in vain. But if it ate it, and feed it to its offspring, it killed it for a reason, for LIFE.

This is a completely misunderstood concept for you. Humanity doesn't hunt for pleasure because they are "ugly" in some way. We hunt for pleasure because we are domesticated, yet still retain the basic instinct to hunt and kill prey. Just because we can understand and modify our behaviors, doesn't mean that we aren't susceptible to their urges or their effects on our neurochemistry.

I can give you two examples of other animals that kill for pleasure right off the top of my head. Firstly, your common house cat. Cats have been domesticated for quite a long time, yet they are notoriously hard to train. A cat which has all of it's food needs provided for it by the owner will often still go out and kill mice and other small prey. Why? They're not hungry. They often don't even eat the prey they kill, but will deposit it on doorstep to their home... as if offering a "present" to it's owner. The second animal, is the dolphin, which have been known to hunt and kill in packs - not for defense, but for pleasure. It's interesting to note, here, that (IIRC) Dolphins are also one of the few other animals who routinely engage in sexual intercourse outside of heat/birth cycles. They do it for fun.

Humans are literally turning their backs to nature, and nature's ways, and they are doing things their own ugly way.

Rather the opposite, actually, because nature does not have a "way". It does not follow a destiny. It simply is. But since you apparently believe in this destiny, has it ever happened to occur to you that humanity's "purpose" in the grand scheme of life is to push the next paradigm shift in evolution and diversity? That because we are capable of changing our environment very rapidly, we put a natural selection pressure on other species to also evolve rapidly in either form or behavior? Many species will go extinct in the process... and I don't personally endorse extinction... but you do have to understand that this is what natural selections is. It's not some like picking partners in dodgeball during Gym class. It's death, and a struggle for resources.

When you think of natural selection, think of Black Plague - and the death and the horror it caused. That's natural selection in action, and it took both a random genetic mutation as well as a modification in behavior (sanitation in medicine) to overcome it.

And don't misconstrue my description as insinuating that selection is some brutal and horrid process. It simply is, and often this struggle promotes cooperation, altruism, symbiosis, and other.. what we generally consider positive attributes. For instance, your intestines are home to about 5 to 10lbs (on average) and well over a 1,000 different species of microbes. These are perfectly healthy for you, and indeed, some even help you digest and get the most out of the nutrients you eat. It helps the host survive through better nutrition, and thus helps the individual microbes by contingent benefit.

Humans are special, supposed to be "Children of Grace", but they are slowly turning into "Children of Greed".

Humans are primates. We're mammals. This isn't a debasement or an excuse to act "primitive". It's the truth.

I don't see much of a relation between nature and
hydrogen bombs, synthetic products such as latex, plastics etc.
Most of the crap that we make just KILLS anything natural.
I understand the point of your post but I have to disagree, there seems to be a balance to everything, and thus far all we've been good at is throwing that balance completely out of wack.

reply to post by argentus


You said the magic word.

Man-Made.

Man is a construct of nature. We are a product of millions of years of environmental selection upon the chemical chain reaction we call life, the same way all other life on Earth diversified.

Again, how is humanity refinining fissionable materials fundamentally different than a beaver building a dam... or a bird building a nest? The level of complexity is ramped way up, but otherwise; are not both of those are examples of gathering or harvesting resources from the environment to build their structures? Bird nests and Beaver dam require quite a lot of architectural skill to create them in varying conditions, with varying quality of materials, and make them sound enough to serve their purpose. The only difference is in where that knowledge comes from. Birds and Beavers are not very bright creatures, generally, so their knowledge and skill is passed down by instinct. Genes that change how the brain is wired when it develops so that the knowledge is passed down even before birth without having to learn it later. Nature created architecture. Humans also have developed architecture, but we must learn it, because it was not pre-programed into our brain by being a survival benefit to our ancestors. We only discovered it, because we had the superior capacity to understand our environment and make predictions based on prior experience.

You mention tools.. but too use is also an emergent phenomena of life. We've identified multiple different species which create/use tools - whether learned, instinctual, or improvised. Bonobos, Otters, and Crows respectively. Again, the only difference is complexity and scale.

Music... hah, well. I think you could have picked a much better example. The reason why humans invented and enjoy music is due to the way our brains are wired. Our brains actually have far more computational power than even the fastest supercomputers we can currently build, but it's the specialization that differentiates them. Computers are excellent at memory storage/recall and logistical calculations, yet we struggle to remember more than seven numbers. Math skills served little help to our ancestors - and nature didn't select for it. However, we excel in pattern recognition. That is of a tremendous benefit, because the sooner you can identify whether that creature approaching is a predator or a mate, the more likely you are to survive to pass on your seed.

Music is an emergent phenomena that manifests as a byproduct of our brain's phenomenal pattern recognition abilities. And that's all music is... repeating patterns of audible tones. The source of the tones is largely irrelevant, as entertainers such as those who produce Stomp! will tell you. Their entire gimmick is based around using objects typically associated with disorganized and irritating cacophonies to make music by applying pattens of tone and beat.

Originally posted by Lasheic
reply to post by argentus

 

Seems to me that refining fissionable nuclear material is about as UN-natural a process as I can imagine. Certainly nuclear fussion and fission and other interactions occur in nature, but not on the order of refinement

We're not creating fissionable material though. All we're doing is redistributing them. First by condensing from a wide area to a very small area, then to a slightly larger area along with a whole lot of energy. Everything is here, we're simply recombining and reorganizing them.

Well said Lasheic. I would also add that when humans produced the first man-made element in 1937, which was named Technetium, they recombined and reorganised atomic particles to create/produce another natural element through the interaction of matter + energy.

I also agree with Astyanax:
'In the words of a friend of mine: 'we are all children of the universe and nothing we do can be unnatural.'

Heartless thread or what, just glad that i am of the 1% that do not feel like that on this planet. Apathy is the norm, and you are just rationalising having no fear in doing anything to others.

Originally posted by andy1033
Heartless thread or what, just glad that i am of the 1% that do not feel like that on this planet. Apathy is the norm, and you are just rationalising having no fear in doing anything to others.

Hey, hey, hey...

Not so fast.

Just because everything is natural doesn't mean everything is right.

Just because someone accepts that everything is natural doesn't mean they don't care.

Would you like to explain just how you concluded that we're all wicked heartless brutes?