Even atheists believe the Lies of Religion!

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Are you then claiming that the one can only get into heaven by believing in the jesus god ?

Moo. I'm so sorry man....yes...he said...." I AM THE way, truth and life, NO ONE gets to the Father without me" that's the truth....and he is my best friend and loves you....yes

Originally posted by mattifikation
No, you have to be good to fellow people as well. Not because you will face divine punishment otherwise, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

you sound like a further developed Christian...see Dr. James Fowler's work called STAGES OF FAITH (google it) ...and don't leave JC out....

reply to post by OldThinker



v is not comprehending

Originally posted by OldThinker
Dude, my patience is varying very thin...DO YOU READ!!!????????????

..."at one time"......????

remember that part of thhe OP?????

You don't won't to discuss...just make POINTS.....

For clarity...believe what you will..ok? You are/were entitled to that...OT simply asked a few questions....

I am sorry that it upsets you so much that I asked you to back up your claim with at least a little bit of evidence. That apparently really upset you so how about we just blindly believe whatever you say for no reason, right? Why can't you just answer my question of where is the proof for this? Why do you not need to prove anything and get mad when pressed for such proof? Isn't there and under top secret or something for thoughts that we can insist without ever having to prove.

Originally posted by OldThinker
...and don't leave JC out....

Originally posted by OldThinker


Alright guys, let’s go to it and discuss with respect and decorum…

OT out!

Originally posted by OldThinker

spacepunk were drunk when you wrote this?

OT

Originally posted by riley
not really relevent and you didn't answer my post. You said even atheists believe your list of religion lies as well yet even if they did (which they clearly don't given the other answers) that still doesn't make it a conspiracy.

[edit on 25-3-2009 by riley]

I don't have much to add beyond this. If one can insult the other, then I have no real interest in the continued obfuscation and mock bulldust cornball affectation of the old one who does not listen.

Younger thinker out.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Do you believe the LIES of ‘religion’?

No offense intended, most do…if we are honest with ourselves? Slow down and read…and ask yourself, did you think these were true at 1 time????????

Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works

Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts

Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth

Lie 5) The Church is a building

Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters

1) There is no person on this planet who is good, not even Christians. However, those who accept Christ, repent of their sins, and receive forgiveness, go to Heaven and those who reject Christ do not. In all honesty, many of the original church fathers believed NO ONE would end up in Hell, they actually leaned more toward the dogma that we now call universalism. Universalism is the belief that after Christ died on the Cross, ALL men receive salvation, as sin was rendered null and void through Christ’s sacrifice. It is arguable as to which of these dogmas is correct as there is evidence in the bible that can lean either way. As a good Christian, I’ll make the extra effort to do it the harder way which is more pleasing to God.

2) This is Catholic Dogma, it’s not Christian Dogma. The Bible says that you are saved by the grace of Christ lest any man should boast. Only the Catholic Church teaches salvation through both grace and works. All other Christian faiths teach salvation through grace alone.

3) There certainly are things that God asks us not to do, which we should always try to live up to. Most people cannot live up to them though, and when they sin they ask for forgiveness and move on with life. Fear of God (obedience to his will) is the beginning of wisdom after all.

4) Not at all. As a matter of fact Christ and early Christians are recorded in several historical references outside the Bible.

5) That is a truly unchristian view of what the Church is, and NO true Christian believes that the church is a building. The Bible is very specific about the Church, and there are many references to the Church as the Bride of Christ. The Church is the body of Christ on the Earth, which he will love and protect as though it is his wife. The Church on the other hand is to obey and love Christ as a wife would her husband. This can actually become a complex subject because there is so much more to the Church then simply the physical building or an assembly of Christians.

6) No, if you accept Christ in your heart, and if you truly repent your sins, that is what matters.

[edit on 3/27/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by AnjeluvDeath



Patience warying thin means dialog with you seems pointless, not that i'm upset or angry...


If it makes you feel better it would be impossible to get every atheist to agree on their favorite dessert, so no these lies aren't/weren't believed by 100%


ps thought I'd repost the first part of OP..."No offense intended, most do…if we are honest with ourselves? Slow down and read…and ask yourself, did you think these were true at 1 time????????"

this was a 'general' request to all readers, words like 'some' and at '1' time are further caveats...so doesn't that show it not an absolute statement?





[edit on 27-3-2009 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker

Are you then claiming that the one can only get into heaven by believing in the jesus god ?

Hm,so let me get this straight in my swede.

A god by the name of yahwe who is the creator of everything that is ever was and shall be, creates in six days the earth and everything on it, a place called heaven and a place called hell.

Yahweh also creates angels and some of these angels somehow don't obey his will so become demons and the head honco of the lot is an angel called the devil.

Yahwe creates humans to populate this planet, he creates a man and a woman and somehow by magic all the people that have ever lived are decended from them clearly by incestious relationships.

After a very very long period of time yahweh decides to give humans rules to live by, and should humans chooose not to obey these rules they are often put to death and that is the end of them.

After another very very long period of time Yahewh incarnates himself in human form and changes his name to Jesus. He is born via a human female not requiring a human father.

When jesus grows up he claims that he is a son of Yahweh and not yahwe and his job was to teach people how to obey the rules that Yahweh had made but no one seemed to be obeying.

Then things start getting a bit grey somehow jesus and Yahweh are one and the same being yet totally seprate, in fact jesus even parays to yahweh which is himself.

Somehow the place called hell comes into play and where jews previously just died at the end of their lives or killed by the jesusyahewe god for disobeying his rules. They were now told that instead of just dying they would be torured in this hell for eternity.
The only way not to be tortured for eternity (acoording to OT) is to believe that jesus is yahweh.

The jesus yahweh god then decided that some of the previous rules that he made for humans need not apply anymore, for example being required to kill another human being for commiting the act of homosexuality.

From then on should a human commit homosexuality another human would not be required to kill him on behalf of jesusgod. Instead of this jesusgod would kill the homosexual personally, unless of course the homsexual decides to obey jesusyahwehgods' rules and believe jesus is yahweh and not be homosexual anymore.

At some point jesus decides to have himself killed/martyred in order that humans would believe he was yahweh and this was somehow a sacrifice he made to himself on behaslf of them.

However as jesus is yahweh and the creator of all that there is he comes back to life three days later, thus proving he did not die, so logically no sacrifice was made.

However, allthough no sacrifice was actually made by anyone as no one was killed, somehow humans are held responsible for this fake death of an omnicient being, even those billions of humans who weren't even born.

The upshot of all this is that instead of humans having to obey yahwehs rules and being punished on the spot for their transgressions. They are now obliged to obey some by not all of the rules that were previously inforced.
Any breaking of the rules would now be punishable after death, however should humans believ jesus is yahweh they willl not be punished but rewarded with an eternity of bliss.

If however a human being lives their life and just happens to not break any of the jesusyahwehgod's rules they wil still be punished after death with an eternity of torture and death in the place called hell.

Dear dear me, this insane reasoning and an obvious conspiracy to control the minds of people, is forced upon children.

No wonder people had to be roasted alive in order to make them believe it!

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by OldThinker
Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

I think that heaven and hell are states of mind or perhaps places and situations on earth.
Not magical or evil places that either good or bad people go to.

Your thoughts (hope) sound encouraging ....I am with you....but I'm afriad not...we can't put our finite aspirations on an infinite being...who is perfect

Wow....cheers for the in-depth and worthwhile answer.... I'm really glad i answered every question..

I'm still not seeing where atheists are believing the lies of religion either??

I usually like your posts OT (well the style, non-offensive, not content) but this just seems like a reason to argue and point out differences I'm afraid



[edit on 27/3/09 by blupblup]

reply to post by defcon5


defcon5,

Thank you for your excellent addition to dispelling these lies. Real depth there for any true seekers. Two thumbs up

reply to post by moocowman



Not a bad summary




OT

reply to post by blupblup


BB, my computer died so my responses will be brief until later this weekend ok?

I will respond it detail for sure....l had mentioned this in an earlier post...my phone is not conducive for long replies

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by blupblup

 

BB, my computer died so my responses will be brief until later this weekend ok?

I will respond it detail for sure....l had mentioned this in an earlier post...my phone is not conducive for long replies

OK cool... i really hope there is a point to all this.
It's not even really about you not replying to my post, It's more the premise and reasoning for the thread, i don't get it?

Sorry for my blunt response but i felt a little annoyed.

Peace

Originally posted by defcon5
4) Not at all. As a matter of fact Christ and early Christians are recorded in several historical references outside the Bible.

No.

The names can be found in other texts that cannot be confirmed. Somehow each time you find a name from the bible outside of the bible, there is no record of any miracles or magic. So Atheists wrote his name down but feeding a crowd with 2 fish did not impress them enough to write that down? There is no proof of Jesus of the bible or any other character in the bible. I know a Mark and a John. Does that mean years from now, when people read my mail, they will believe that the bible is true because they found references to Mark and John?

This is a silly argument that is put forth on ATS often but has yet to be backed up at all.

Is this what this site has become? We just say things, refuse to back it up, become indignant when asked to back it up, then repeat yourself ove rand over and over? There has to be a better way.

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by AnjeluvDeath

 

Patience warying thin means dialog with you seems pointless, not that i'm upset or angry...

I did not ask for a dialogue with you. I asked you to back up your claim even a little bit.

If it makes you feel better it would be impossible to get every atheist to agree on their favorite dessert, so no these lies aren't/weren't believed by 100%

Which means your OP is a lie or wrong? You pick which. It is all in intent. What was your intention with giving us information you now admit is false?

ps thought I'd repost the first part of OP..."No offense intended, most do…if we are honest with ourselves? Slow down and read…and ask yourself, did you think these were true at 1 time????????"

Psssst. I have already pointed out that when asked for proof, all you do is repeat yourself and insist. See above statement.

P.S. No, I have never believed any one of those things at any time in my life except that Christianity is a made up myth. I still do not get why that is even on your list but how does that prove I believe a religious lie when what I believe is that Christianity is as made up as anything else?

this was a 'general' request to all readers, words like 'some' and at '1' time are further caveats...so doesn't that show it not an absolute statement?

Which is exactly the same as admitting that it is a lie then. You started an entire thread to make a STATEMENT. You declared these things to be true. I simply asked for some proof. How many pages deep are we before you finally admit that the OP is NOT true? Why even argue about it when you knew it was not true? What are you trying to accomplish?

Do you not see how that is exactly the kind of behavior that turns people AWAY from Christianity.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Patience warying thin means

Nothing. It means nothing because it contains a made up word.

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by blupblup

 

BB, my computer died so my responses will be brief until later this weekend ok?

I will respond it detail for sure....l had mentioned this in an earlier post...my phone is not conducive for long replies

Does your phone also have a proof filter on it?

Originally posted by AnjeluvDeath

Originally posted by defcon5
4) Not at all. As a matter of fact Christ and early Christians are recorded in several historical references outside the Bible.

No.

The names can be found in other texts that cannot be confirmed. Somehow each time you find a name from the bible outside of the bible, there is no record of any miracles or magic. So Atheists wrote his name down but feeding a crowd with 2 fish did not impress them enough to write that down? There is no proof of Jesus of the bible or any other character in the bible. I know a Mark and a John. Does that mean years from now, when people read my mail, they will believe that the bible is true because they found references to Mark and John?

This is a silly argument that is put forth on ATS often but has yet to be backed up at all.

Is this what this site has become? We just say things, refuse to back it up, become indignant when asked to back it up, then repeat yourself ove rand over and over? There has to be a better way.

You could I suppose use that argument for general people in the Bible, people without titles. But the Bible has indeed been proven to contain historic truths.

What about King Hezekiah? Look it up. It's the latest confirmed find that proves the historic truth of the Bible. There are many more of course.

OT's OP isn't about needing proof. He's asking questions, asking for input. Why does this bother you so much?

King arthur and Merlin apparently existed. This doesn't mean I believe in dragons, fairies or the lady in the lake. Should it?

Originally posted by B.A.C.
What about King Hezekiah? Look it up. It's the latest confirmed find that proves the historic truth of the Bible. There are many more of course.

I have a clive barker book here with a character named sal. I know a sal. I understand that it is very possible for sals to exist. That does not make the rest of the fiction that pulled it in true. What if I said I can do real magic and make rabbits appear out of hats. I did it for President Reagan once.

Now we all know there really was a Reagan, by your logic that must mean my magic thing is true too then right?