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Even atheists believe the Lies of Religion!

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posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


so watcher first of all thank you for the response....and you never believed the good go UP and the bad go DOWN?

OT curious?





posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker
 





God does 'salvations' work from on high, we do his work on earth...and if we choose to sin, we pay the penalty....ie early/premature death/decease/pain/etc...


So what sin exactly, has a baby committed when it dies let's say for example a cot death as a penalty for the alleged sin ?

Also what's this work all about ? Work, by definition effort we choose to put into an endeavor in order to reach a goal or objective.

If we choose not to do this "work" whatever it is on behalf of then (according to xtianity) we are punished both physically and emotionally for an eternity.

This then is not voluntary work but forced slavery through fear of physical or emotional abuse !

[edit on 26-3-2009 by moocowman]


moo, 'works' or good deeds are not a REQUIREMENT to GET INTO heaven...


That's good news man...



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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REPLY TO MOOCOWMAN...

You said..."So what (is) sin exactly, has a baby committed when it dies let's say for example a cot death as a penalty for the alleged sin ?"

bro??? STOP!!!!!! please....

Stop gettin your theology...from extremists, ok?


These precious ones will be with US in heaven!!!

US meaning u & OT


"bank on it!"



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Nope. I have always found the idea of a punishing judgemental being also being a "creator" of this world silly at best. Or more precisely I refused to take a stance til I came to this conclusion.
Should be noted I do believe in a "higher power" though.

I appreciate the way you went about your response btw.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

.....

I appreciate the way you went about your response btw.



no prob man...so glad you took the time on OT's humble thread...

Dude, I'm old...no need for piss and vinegar here....

I'm here to help...because I just have the time, that's all....

Later, OT



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Um, I did not mean any piss and vinegar? Sorry if I came off that way. I merely wished to answer your question honestly.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by OldThinker
 


Um, I did not mean any piss and vinegar? Sorry if I came off that way. I merely wished to answer your question honestly.


No, you did not come off that way...just giving some insight here...

Wish you the best...


When you have time please see.. this...its short...its what I believe....

link... search.live.com...

btw, I have some kind of virus? Gonna turn in the (work) pc in now....So I'm kind of stuck with the TREO until then...until I get home this weekend, ok?

let me know what you think of the 9 minute vid, k?




posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
Nah, not my style....I'll just respectfully agree to disagree...I'll think about what you said, you think about what I said ... and time will tell, right?

OT


So.... you are just going to completely skirt the whole issue of offering proof that this applies to 100% of the people? I thought that was a pretty good question but hey, you go ahead and just say stuff and then tell people they are just supposed to believe it. If that is how this works then this is nothing short of a rant.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:13 PM
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I think works and good deeds needed is a bit of bad wording. It's not so much if they are needed or not, it's a matter of you will reap what you sow. If you do good deeds, then you will likely see that returned, and if you do bad things then you will get that in return.

But it's most in how you treat and deal with other people. If you are going to go around robbing people, killing and breaking the commandments, then how can you expect to live in a society that doesn't have these things? And if you break the commandments, they are generally bad and come with their own consequences when you reap what you've sowed.

And if you do those things, then you must repent(fix/change) the sin(mistake). Once you do that, you are automatically forgiven as it is no longer an issue and you will no longer sow that.

Where good deeds isn't going to work is you can't steal from 1 person, and then do good deeds to others after and then expect to have the original theft forgiven. Only if you realize and understand the error you made in the first place and then no longer do that have you fixed the error.

So if you were to have murdered someone, or lets say you made a living as a hitman. Doing good deeds doesn't fix that, only stopping the action does. Also doesn't mean you can just murder someone and then say - never doing that again, and all is forgiven. While you may be forgiven in the future for not doing it anymore, you still sowed it and will reap it.

So it does matter what you do, but you can't fix a mistake with chariaty. Feeding a homeless man doesn't fix a broken window. Only addressing the window fixes it.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
I think works and good deeds needed is a bit of bad wording. It's not so much if they are needed or not, it's a matter of you will reap what you sow. If you do good deeds, then you will likely see that returned, and if you do bad things then you will get that in return.

But it's mos.........



What are these commandments you speak of? I googled it and got stuff about honoring my parents, not having statues, keeping one day a week to spend thinking about someone that does not exist... I live in America and we do not have to live by any of those so you must mean something I am just ignorant of.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.


I think that heaven and hell are states of mind or perhaps places and situations on earth.
Not magical or evil places that either good or bad people go to.





Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works


You should not be out to please God... you should be trying to help your fellow humans and help those in need and less fortunate than yourself.




Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts


Most religions are about mind control or mass control unfortunately... it's a shame that organized religion embodies this practice.
Spirituality on the other hand is quite different and more of a personal thing.




Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth


Christianity as well as all other religions are made up.
Where do you think they came from....thin air?

They were written by men who wanted control and power.... nothing more.




Lie 5) The Church is a building



I always thought the people were the church...the church was a communal thing...not a structure..?




Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters


Not sure what you mean by this....it's a very vague point?

I think if you're a genuine person, who causes not harm or pain to anyone and genuinely tries to do good in all they do and tries to help people everyday and is genuinely a decent person... then it counts for a lot.
It's obviously not "all that matters" but if everyone were this way...the world would be a better place indeed.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by B.A.C.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Well if you have to ask you must have been ignorant of what constitutes a conspiracy in this case.

A conspiracy involves two or more people actually conspiring.. thus far he has not presented any such scenario.


Any religion is a conspiracy according to ATS. If one of us creates a Pro - Religion thread, it is part of the conspiracy automatically.

I asked what the conspiracy was.. that is a very reasonable question on an actual CONSPIRACY SITE. If you have a problem with me asking that that question, you can go get a moderator and get them to tell me I have no right to ask that question. This is like the third time you've had a go at me over this.. unless you're just being ironic about ATS standards or something?

btw. he still is yet to answer it. :shk:

What is the conspiracy?

[edit on 26-3-2009 by riley]



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 





God does 'salvations' work from on high, we do his work on earth...and if we choose to sin, we pay the penalty....ie early/premature death/decease/pain/etc...



Dude I didn't get my theology from extremists, It's what average xtians claim and certainly no theology of mine.

You stated the above "if we choose to sin---", now correct me if your theology thinks me wrong but that is doing the opposite of what god wants is it not ?

So if we choose to sin, that is disobey god we pay a penalty which is hell and death no ?

So if we do the opposite of sinful works which is good (as per gods' instruction) works then there is no consequence ?

Are you claiming that doing work for god (whatever your definition of work is) is inconsequential and does not effect your entry into heaven ?

Are you then claiming that the one can only get into heaven by believing in the jesus god ?

I personally do not accept your jesusgod so I'm off to hell regardless of how i live my life, should I have lived my life doing good works does not matter i will still be punished for eternity along with the people who do bad works.

If however I spend a lifetime of doing bad works sining against your god then decide at the very last moment before i die to believe in the jesusgod, it's off to paradise for me.


This reasoning stretches credulity to it's very limits, let's look at it in simple everyday life terms.

My child has choice of whether to engage in homosexual sex or not I give my child this choice. However should my child decide to engage in homosexuality and refuse to stop and say sorry to me by a given date, i will beat and torture my child mercilessly for all eternity.

Hmm, somehow I don't think my child is going to commit a homosexual act, but just in case, my child is also aware that I can read it's mind and even thinking about it in the same way will bring the same punishment.

Now my child is put in a position of no choice it has to act in the opposite way of how I choose it not to act due to intense fear of the consequences.

I have now enslaved my childs' behavior through fear, my child now has no will of it's own its will is my will, should it choose to disobey me then it's gone against my will the punishment proves it's my will.


We teach our children not to play with matches or they could burn and die, this is good parenting.

If we give our children 100 boxes of matches and tell them that should should they play with them we will pour kerosene on their heads and light the matches, this is insanity.



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:16 PM
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What kind of salvation can be effected by trusting in the Bible? It is true that "the traditions of men cannot save," but neither can the tradition of "trusting in the Bible." Scripturally speaking, we are only encouraged to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation for He is our Savior, not the Bible. The personal indwelling life of Jesus Christ alone is effective for salvation. We receive Him (Jesus) by faith, not by "trusting in the Bible."


This is from one of the links



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by AnjeluvDeath

Originally posted by OldThinker
Nah, not my style....I'll just respectfully agree to disagree...I'll think about what you said, you think about what I said ... and time will tell, right?

OT


So.... you are just going to completely skirt the whole issue of offering proof that this applies to 100% of the people? I thought that was a pretty good question but hey, you go ahead and just say stuff and then tell people they are just supposed to believe it. If that is how this works then this is nothing short of a rant.


Dude, my patience is varying very thin...DO YOU READ!!!????????????

..."at one time"......????

remember that part of thhe OP?????

You don't won't to discuss...just make POINTS.....

For clarity...believe what you will..ok? You are/were entitled to that...OT simply asked a few questions....




posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by riley
btw. he still is yet to answer it. :shk:

What is the conspiracy?

[edit on 26-3-2009 by riley]

Riley, THE conspiracy is...a very clever deciever, who you do not acknowledge, has pulled the wool over your eyes...and has made you the SPOKES-PERSON for him....

OT thinks that's scary...and a tad conspirial...


And you will deny him....and that it has happened....OT thinks there's a good movie in it somewhere...kind of like....THIS PRESENT DARKNESS...do you read? Do you dare?

Here's the source if interested, which OT doubt's.....
www.amazon.com...

you are in the book and didn't know it...that's freaky!!!!!


[edit on 26-3-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

What kind of salvation can be effected by trusting in the Bible? It is true that "the traditions of men cannot save," but neither can the tradition of "trusting in the Bible." Scripturally speaking, we are only encouraged to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation for He is our Savior, not the Bible. The personal indwelling life of Jesus Christ alone is effective for salvation. We receive Him (Jesus) by faith, not by "trusting in the Bible."


This is from one of the links


V, study on this....

The 'w' gets us to the 'W'

Check out John 1 if you are concerned with your future...

"WORD!"

OT



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 




moo...


Your perception is correct....I will leave it at that and we can U2U one another further...

Good observations and questions on your part....I believe my Lord will use them/you to further his efforts....

OT honored!



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by OldThinker
Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.


I think that heaven and hell are states of mind or perhaps places and situations on earth.
Not magical or evil places that either good or bad people go to.




Your thoughts (hope) sound encouraging ....I am with you....but I'm afriad not...we can't put our finite aspirations on an infinite being...who is perfect



posted on Mar, 26 2009 @ 09:04 PM
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Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

I disbelieve that one, because I don't believe in heaven or hell. I still often find myself wanting to tell certain people to "go to hell," but I mean it more as a figure of speach than an actual declaration of belief in hell.

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works

Again, I disbelieve that on the grounds that I don't believe in God. However, when you do good deeds, you feel better about yourself and that leads to a happier and more rewarding life.

Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts

I disagree. There are lots of things Christians are taught to DO, in addition to the things they are told not to do. Some I agree with, some I do not.


Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth

I agree. Religions existed thousands of years before any of the Abrahamic religions were even concieved. There's no reason to think that the Christian God would wait tens of thousands of years to establish his first religion on earth.

Lie 5) The Church is a building

Well, "a" church is a building, "the" church is the power structure of the religious leaders and the people they control.

Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters

No, you have to be good to fellow people as well. Not because you will face divine punishment otherwise, but simply because it's the right thing to do.



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