Even atheists believe the Lies of Religion!

Originally posted by OldThinker
Do you believe the LIES of ‘religion’?

Yep, I bet you do…

Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works

Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts

Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth

Lie 5) The Church is a building

Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters

I saw this thread on the front page and I had a feeling it would be you OT. Still not bored with referring to yourself "in the third person"?

Anyway, I must admit to not quite getting what you meant at first, because your "Lies of Religion" aren't quite that are they? For a start, they appear to be about Christianity more than anything else, and some are points usually made by atheists! You claim these statements are lies purely based on the fact they are not mentioned in the Bible (again, that's just Christianity) but given that your thread is about the "Lies of Religion" surely that encompasses all of the stuff spouted by priests/mullahs/rabbis etc? And boy oh boy do they spout some crap! But to address the "Lies" you gave us...

LIE 1: Seeing as how I don't believe in the existence of those places, I do NOT believe it...

LIE 2: Again, not believing in your God means I don't believe that one either. I would take issue with your claim about this not being mentioned in the bible. I could be wrong but isn't this implied by Jesus at some point? Maybe not in such black-and-white terms but doesn't Jesus make some comment about the way you live your life determining whether or not you would sit at his father's side in Heaven? I'm a bit hazy on that one...

LIE 3: Of the "ten commandments", EIGHT start with "Thou shall not"! That kinda sums it up for most non-believers...

LIE 4: Though based in actual history, there's no proof any of the miraculous things described in the bible actually took place in the way described. Leads myself (and many others) to think it's just a fable...

LIE 5: If you take all of the religious iconography out a church it can be refurbished as apartments or offices, as has been done in many places. Just because the religiously minded claim it's a special place doesn't actually make it so. I could claim the same thing about my toilet, as I have had far more rewarding experiences there than I've ever had in a church...

LIE 6: If I tell the truth and behave in a proper fashion, then I can feel content. I shouldn't need to think of Jesus/Allah/Buddha etc. before commiting to doing the decent thing, even if I was religious. If you have to think "What would Jesus do?" then I think you have a problem. Doing the right thing should be instinctual, not religiously pre-meditated...

Anyhoo, always nice to spar with ya my deluded American friend!

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Lie 5) The Church is a building
A church is a building. The Church is usually used when referring to an organisation. Such as: The Church of England.

I'm not quite sure why you refer to these questions as "Lies" - who is doing the lying here?

[edit on 24/3/09 by FatherLukeDuke]

FLD,,

Hey thank you for the response...

I would say the church is a group of people primarily...

Regarding the lie term/comment, i believe these statements are not backed up by the truth in the Bible...

Regarding point 1 there is no good, that is good enough...because the standard is PERFECTION...know anyone to attain that?

Ot glad you joined, looking forward to more from you...

Originally posted by sotp
Anyhoo, always nice to spar with ya my deluded American friend!

You two bro! How are things? Thanks for your answers...I'm kinda busy, just responding in short to the good posters...I'll get more specific later tonight...

Your deluded American bro OT

Originally posted by ChemBreather
''Everybody lies'' , Dr.House

You seem pretty sure that they are lies, are all religeous 'writings' lies ??
I'm no preacher boy, but I have learned these last months that there are alot more to us than put forth by the ruling elite....

Interesting comment...what happened/what do you mean?

Thanks so much for responding...

OT

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
If Christianity is about Jesus Christ, then wouldn't Christianity be men worshipping another man? Where is the dignity in that? That sounds more like ancestor worship, or a socialist cult of personality.

Jesus Christ was the begotten Son Of God, so where does God fit into Christianity?

I believe in the Trinity...when JC was on earth he was 100% man and is 100% God..at the same time

Originally posted by ChemBreather
Let me take the Bible, as it is Re-written and twisted and being censored heavely thru centuries, I do not put any coins in that vending machine.

So you think it illogical that an all-powerful God who wanted to convey HIS message, couldn't preserve it?

Sounds shaky to me, I dunno?

OT

Originally posted by sotp

Originally posted by OldThinker


Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

LIE 1: Seeing as how I don't believe in the existence of those places, I do NOT believe it...

When you believed in God/faith/belief (if you ever did?) didn't you think my first lie was true? Don't most people?

Here's the clincher, no one is good enough...to attain heaven unless...

OT

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works

LIE 2: Again, not believing in your God means I don't believe that one either. I would take issue with your claim about this not being mentioned in the bible. I could be wrong but isn't this implied by Jesus at some point? Maybe not in such black-and-white terms but doesn't Jesus make some comment about the way you live your life determining whether or not you would sit at his father's side in Heaven? I'm a bit hazy on that one...



Scripture says there "is no one righteous, no not one!"


Answers to this delimma are possible though...

OT

Originally posted by sotp

Originally posted by OldThinker


Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts

LIE 3: Of the "ten commandments", EIGHT start with "Thou shall not"! That kinda sums it up for most non-believers...

OT vs NT? that is the question...

am giving you a new commandment to love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another John 13:34

The OT is old....the NT is new...xtains are to love...period!

Originally posted by sotp
LIE 6: If I tell the truth and behave in a proper fashion, then I can feel content. I shouldn't need to think of Jesus/Allah/Buddha etc. before commiting to doing the decent thing, even if I was religious. ....

Thanks for your honesty, as always...if I read between the line here...your sub conscious thinks Lie 1 is true...or atleast hopes it is...

6 and 1 are tied/linked.... in my mind....but they are lies and deceptions from the evil one...

Please think through what I saying...

OT

PART 1 OF 6....

Responding to lie number 1...

There is no "good" people...God requires PERFECTION....attaining heaven is totally out of our hands...

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVES US ANY MORE THAN HE ALREADY DOES...AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVE US ANY LESS THAN HE DOES....

Any implications to this?

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker
PART 1 OF 6....

Responding to lie number 1...

There is no "good" people...God requires PERFECTION....attaining heaven is totally out of our hands...

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVES US ANY MORE THAN HE ALREADY DOES...AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVE US ANY LESS THAN HE DOES....

Any implications to this?

OT

Perfection I do not think is a good word. Perfection could not create something that was no perfect. The question is who eyes you are looking at the perfection with.

Both heaven and hell are possible. It is only the literal descriptions that I doubt. If you put your finger on the stove eye, it is going to burn you. And if will keep burning you until you remove the finger from it. Once the lesson is learned, then the eye does not burn the finger.

Hell is like putting your finger on the eye. If you are smart and learn your lesson, it is limited and not so bad. If you are foolish and keep your finger on the eye, then it is going to be painful?

Is hell eternal? It could be should one decide to never remove their finger from the stove eye, but I think most people learn the lesson. Todays world is more of a "keep the stove eye hidden so they don't know whats burning them" kind of setup.

Right now you are in hell pretty much, and not the kingdom of god. You will remain here until you can actually live by the commandments. The perfect society is "anarchy" of sorts, as there is no need for governments among a people where evil is not present. As we have evil on this earth, we have governments, otherwise we will leave our house, and come back to it being empty etc.

As we are learning the lesson of good and evil, we have evil in us. Thus we were removed from heaven and this peaceful society because if we being evil were allowed to stay in that society, then that society could no longer exist as evil would be present. The society can only exist among a people who live and let live and follow the commandments.

So, you were removed from the garden, the tower of babel is destroyed to keep man from entering again, and this is why.

Jesus comes to fulfill the law and bring understanding of it. Why? So that hopefully by his example and the understanding he gives you will believe and follow his example. So that you can live by the commandments and live in a peaceful/heavenly society again. If you can not live by them, then you can not be allowed into the society. And you will keep learning lessons until you do pretty much.

To repent is just to fix your mistake. You are automatically forgiven when you fix your mistakes(sins) because then it is no longer an issue. The same as when you fix the problem of your finger being on the stove eye it is automatically forgiven, although you might have a bit of pain to deal with for awhile, fall in the ditch - gotta walk back up it.

In John 20 when certain people are able to "forgive" sins, they are able to do so with the holy spirit. This does not mean they are able to just say "you are forgiven" and that is it. Not even close. What is means is they are able to see the truth because they have the holy spirit, and they because of that they are able to show people their errors and how to fix them. And by that process the people who actually "believe" and do the things to fix those errors, those are the ones who are saved. This is how Jesus saves people as well, by showing and being an example of how god would act on earth and how you should act and how to follow the commandments.

If you think you can get to such a place without walking the path and "carrying your own cross", then that is a lie. And that is what many religions sell. Because again, you can't allow evil in a good and peaceful society and keep it. So how can you get into a heaven if you are still evil? Some think you can just remove anything that might tempt a person, but if such were true then we wouldn't be here in the first place.

The paths we take are our own "choices". In the end, you have to walk through the door.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
If Christianity is about Jesus Christ, then wouldn't Christianity be men worshipping another man? Where is the dignity in that? That sounds more like ancestor worship, or a socialist cult of personality.

Jesus Christ was the begotten Son Of God, so where does God fit into Christianity?

I believe in the Trinity...when JC was on earth he was 100% man and is 100% God..at the same time

So then the Bible is not the word of God? Is there some other book that Christians should use instead?

reply to post by OldThinker



The only perfection that Christianity requires is pefect love.

The Bible says that even laws are not perfect, that only God's work is perfect.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by OldThinker

 

The only perfection that Christianity requires is pefect love.

The Bible says that even laws are not perfect, that only God's work is perfect.

Yep, I agree...

Thanks for sharing...


Something to the effect perfect loves casts out all FEAR...

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

I believe in the Trinity...when JC was on earth he was 100% man and is 100% God..at the same time

So then the Bible is not the word of God? Is there some other book that Christians should use instead?

If you don't believe in the trinity...I'l; respectfully agree to disagree, ok?

Perfect theology is not an entrance requirement into the kingdom...i.e. ...theif on the cross, OT suspects he had some erroneous beliefs, but he ended up ok, right?

Originally posted by badmedia

Jesus comes to fulfill the law and bring understanding of it. Why? So that hopefully by his example and the understanding he gives you will believe and follow his example. So that you can live by the commandments and live in a peaceful/heavenly society again. If you can not live by them, then you can not be allowed into the society. And you will keep learning lessons until you do pretty much.

lots of truth here Badmedia!!

Those that love me, obey me...he said.

Great having you here

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker

Romans 1:20, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"

Not trying to be wierd/religious on you, but this verse is penetrating to me....sorry for the bible, I'm just curious...?

Look, I can see how people can have the wool pulled over their eyes and believe in a big guy in the sky who made everything, because it is a safe, default position to be in. It doesn't work for me though.
I see no need for 'Him' and quotes such as the one you provided don't make me change my mind.....essentially you are quoting a human. Religion and its associated literature etc is a good way to control people and keep them in thrall.

We have better ways of explaining phenomena than quoting a book that is full of lies, half-truths and inconsistencies.

Those are my thoughts.

reply to post by nixie_nox


you can also be sincerely evil. Not good.

sorry for the 1 line, heres another. chruch is 2 people, praying together, or just chillen acting good!

reply to post by OldThinker

There is no "good" people...God requires PERFECTION....attaining heaven is totally out of our hands... THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVES US ANY MORE THAN HE ALREADY DOES...AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVE US ANY LESS THAN HE DOES.... Any implications to this? OT

So ultimately if god created everything ie, all that there is then there is nothing that god is not.

With this in mind, god cannot be less nor more this would be impossible if god is all that there is.

It is alleged that god is love/compassion which I would venture to say are the same thing. If this is the case then god cannot be more or less compassion and so it is impossible for god to hate/dislike or condemn as this would require that god to be less or in want.

So then, when it comes to god hating certain human actions like that of an adulterer or homosexual for example. It is quite simple impossible for god to hate these actions as god cannot hate, unless of course god is not all that there is which would preclude the omniscient/omnipresence of god.


The impossibility of god hating anything would the preclude nonsense like the satangod and hell etc, as these can only exist if god created them to begin with. If god did not create them to begin with, then once again this would preclude gods' omniscience/omnipresence .

If it is alleged hell were created by god as punishment for sins, then this again would preclude god being all that there is, because if god is all that there is then there is nothing that god is not. So in order to sin ie one would somehow need to be able to hurt god, however we've already established the impossibility of hurting god.

It would appear that xtians lead a merry dance around what the bibles have to say, sometimes taking them literally but often cherry picking the bits that seem to make some sort of sense.