Even atheists believe the Lies of Religion!

Originally posted by AnjeluvDeath
For one thing...thank you for admitting people do not kill in the name of Atheism. Now you know why you can retract cheering someone on for listing people who were Atheists and killed people. Do you not see how you contradict yourself over and over again?

I NEVER said they did. They kill because of twisted beliefs. No contradiction because I never stated what you say I did.

I have become convinced that the only way to believe in any organised religion is to be the type of person that can contradict their own arguments over and over without ever seeing the problem.

Here's a challenge, show me where I contradicted myself, give me some quotes. You can't because I haven't.

I believe I was asking for proof that the bible was historically accurate but you wanted to play games for 6 pages instead so I am not sure.

I gave you proof right off the bat with the latest historical proof of the Bible found. Information pertaining to King Hezekiah. Or did you even read it?

Here it is from 5 pages back or so:

Originally posted by B.A.C.
What about King Hezekiah? Look it up. It's the latest confirmed find that proves the historic truth of the Bible. There are many more of course

Now who's contradicting themselves? You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Now quit with the Ad Hominem crap.

en.wikipedia.org...
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Originally posted by Goathief
reply to post by AnjeluvDeath

 

Pol Pot was an atheist.

Stalin was an atheist.

That's probably around 50 millions deaths right there...

Yup, and that number alone exceeds the deaths of the Crusades and Inquisition put together.

There has been much murder in the name of religion, but it's not a good debate because both sides are just as guilty of twisting dogma for their own means.

There ya go, sweety. See above two posts. You claimed "Yeah thats right, and that number is way bigger than the christian murders during the witch trials. So what? If it was not done in the name of Atheism then it does not prove any point made here does it? The point you are cheering in is that more people died in the name of Atheism than Religion. If that is not what you meant to agree with, then you should read the things you applaud more carefully in the future.

Originally posted by B.A.C.


I NEVER said they did. They kill because of twisted beliefs. No contradiction because I never stated what you say I did.

Please see above.

Here's a challenge, show me where I contradicted myself, give me some quotes. You can't because I haven't.

I just did.

I gave you proof right off the bat with the latest historical proof of the Bible found. Information pertaining to King Hezekiah. Or did you even read it?

No....that is not proof the bible is true. That is proof of some things about King Hezekiah. As I have said, my Clive Barker novels also reference real places and people. If I go and find out there really is a California and a hollywood, and a person named Gretta Garbo once existed does that make "Coldheart Canyon" real????????

Now who's contradicting themselves? You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Now quit with the Ad Hominem crap.

No, I am asking either one of you to make sense and answer a simple question. How many pages in are we and I still have to rephrase my questions because you have not answered them once yet?

I asked for proof the bible was true, not proof that the bible may have referenced real people and places. No Ad Hominem crap here. I am simply asking simple questions. I am sorry this upsets you two so much. I guess if I was trying to sell some bogus religion, I would be a little defensive when people asked me logical quesstions about it too. That is too bad. That is also why I am not here talking about the FSM deity.

Originally posted by AnjeluvDeath

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Originally posted by Goathief
reply to post by AnjeluvDeath

 

Pol Pot was an atheist.

Stalin was an atheist.

That's probably around 50 millions deaths right there...

Yup, and that number alone exceeds the deaths of the Crusades and Inquisition put together.

There has been much murder in the name of religion, but it's not a good debate because both sides are just as guilty of twisting dogma for their own means.

There ya go, sweety. See above two posts. You claimed "Yeah thats right, and that number is way bigger than the christian murders during the witch trials. So what? If it was not done in the name of Atheism then it does not prove any point made here does it? The point you are cheering in is that more people died in the name of Atheism than Religion. If that is not what you meant to agree with, then you should read the things you applaud more carefully in the future.

What did I say? Here's what I clarified my point with "both sides are just as guilty of twisting dogma for their own means." Did you miss that? Do you know what that means?

I've NEVER said or AGREED that it was done in the name of atheism. Goathief never said it was done in the name of atheism either. I agreed that they killed people and it wasn't related to any religion. I also stated that it was the result of beliefs and twisted dogma.

Get the facts straight and quit putting words in peoples mouths.

What's your next Ad Hominem argument? I can't wait....

[edit on 28-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by B.A.C.
What did I say? Here's what I clarified my point with "both sides are just as guilty of twisting dogma for their own means." Did you miss that? Do you know what that means?

I've NEVER said or AGREED that it was done in the name of atheism. Goathief never said it was done in the name of atheism either. I agreed that they killed people and it wasn't related to any religion. I also stated that it was the result of beliefs and twisted dogma.

Then you need to read back a little more. Really look at the argument you decided to try to hijack. The idea that more people died in the NAME OF RELIGION was denied by stating men who were atheists that killed lots of people. Does that contradict what I said? NO!

So yes, more people have died in the name of religion than atheism, right?

What is your argument here? The point was made that PEOPLE DIE IN THE NAME OF RELIGION MORE THAN IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. If you are not disputing that, then I really do not know what you are doing aside from arguing for the sake of arguing.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by AnjeluvDeath

 

I'm done responding to your pathetic attempts to argue. You have no proof of anything, just pathetic illogical arguments.

Your Ad Hominem attacks show your ignorance.

You don't deserve any responses. I've backed up everything I've said. If you don't like it, too bad

[edit on 28-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

You have not backed up anything. You 'accidentally' agreed that more people died in the name of Atheism than religion but when pressed to back that up, you claim it was not what you said. You claimed that you KNOW the bible is true but when pressed for evidence, all you could say is that there is evidence that a character named in the bible once existed.

Sorry this bothers you both so much. I am simply asking you to either not make statements you cannot prove, call them the OPINIONS that they are, or back them up. Why is this so difficult to do? This simple truth that you say you know is true; convince me. Or are you just one of these "christians" that is not looking to help his fellow man but to judge and deride him?

This is a topic that can get very heated. I ask that all posters take a deep breath and recall that this subject can be interacted with civility and decorum.

Please respond to the topic and not the poster.

Thank you.

reply to post by MemoryShock

MemoryShock, just got back...whew...

Appreciate your word here...

Just got in from dinner...I'm going to post a final clarification tonight and check back in tomorrow

Again thanks for the post!

OT

Well I thought I’d pick things up again…if I may…?


I originally stated an opinion that some atheists and others believed the following statements at one time….I further explained these are sourced by an evil creature called Satan…and that these beliefs (which I termed lies) were not bible-based and can confuse folks…


Then for whatever (or whoever) we got off track…no need to lay blame, let's move on ok?



Here’s an attempt to get back on topic…


1) I certainly think it’s in the realm of possibility that some people believe the good go to heaven and the bad don’t…is that a stretch…?


2) I also think #2 is a logical belief if you agree with number 1…and that you could earn salvation…again to me, this is not biblical.

3) I also think it is a belief on some skeptics that the Christian faith is a list of no-no’s where if you understood the New Testament better you’d see is really is a number of DO’s, which I can list later…


4) I also believe that Christianity is the truth…is it out of the realm of possibility that some atheists think it’s a myth…

5) Also I think there are some skeptics that think the church is a bldg…it really is not…it is a group of people…remember JC said I don’t dwell in temples made with hands…he was speaking of people.


6) And lastly…I think many believe that if you are sincere you will end up in the end alright….6 ties into 1 and 2. The bible makes it clear salvation is God’s business…yes we are called to live holy lives, and to treat others with respect…but JC was quite exclusive in his teachings of the way to God…and sincerity in another religion didn’t play a role in his teaching….I admit this is a very hard teaching….and requires acceptance or rejection…and doesn’t lend itself to a middle ground or misinterpretation…

It’s late here and I thought I try and clarify a bit before retiring for the night…

Should there be any interested readers we can review my rationale for these later….

OT sleepy!

reply to post by OldThinker


See how much nicer it looks now that you added "I think" to them? The OP was a faulty statement. This is a list of things you think. This is better but neither one belongs on ATS. There is no conspiracy. There is nothing here but you using this place to list things that you believe. How very "christian" yet again.

reply to post by AnjeluvDeath


Yes that's good, glad your somewhat settled...

You know i started thinking...most if not all OP's and posts are opinions or else they are sourced to another news link, which of course is another's opinion.

Of the, I dunno few thousands, of posts I've made...I don't think i ever told another poster, his/her subject was in the wrong forum...I guess I thought that was a moderators' job

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by AnjeluvDeath

 

Yes that's good, glad your somewhat settled...

You know i started thinking...most if not all OP's and posts are opinions or else they are sourced to another news link, which of course is another's opinion.

Of the, I dunno few thousands, of posts I've made...I don't think i ever told another poster, his/her subject was in the wrong forum...I guess I thought that was a moderators' job

OT

Because you began this thread on a faulty premise put forth as a statement of fact. You argued without evidence in that case for hours and then finally admitted you were just expressing yourself.

Since when is ATS just a place for you to babble on about whatever religion you are?

Show me that you still do not get it and I need to say it another way. Please.

[edit on 29-3-2009 by AnjeluvDeath]

reply to post by OldThinker



I'm an aethist, as far as I know But I do believe in energy and Life and we're all part of the same thing. I simply just don't believe in any sentient being running the Universe who puts down rules and regulations -- so far in my life, nothing in nature has suggested anything to that effect.

Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.
No, I can't say that I ever did or do believe in any of that. I don't know what happens when one expires, I could only guess. But i certainly couldn't imagine the fate of one's immortal being/soul would be decided by the events of very finite and short mortal life. Heaven and Hell are merely made up by people years ago in order to manage and control peoples' lives. IMO, anywaze.

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works
No, I don;t think so. As an aethist I don't believe in 'God' in that sense. I personally believe in Life and eternal energy. And if there is some form of coherent, universal energy/entity that we all come from or are apart of, it is neither loving nor spiteful, neither compassionate nor ambivolent. It just 'is' -- it's impartial and neutral. So by that token, what you do earns you neither favours nor animosity.

Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts
While I don't like Christianity, and it does have many don't's, I think it also has many do's as well. Though generally, I think it's the don't's that stick out in memory (havent read the bible for many years)

Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth
I wouldn't say it's made up per se, but many parts of it are exaggerated or made more elaborate. It's also a merge with old Pagan and Sun-based worshipping, isn't it? I mean, I don't doubt there was a man named Jesus (or something close to it) who was a very charismatic speaker and had fantastic views on society, living and treating your fellow person. But he certainly wasn't the "Son of God" or walked on water, rose from the dead, etc. Much of that is just what people do with stories that get passed down -- they get made more elaborate as the time passes. Sadly though, the initial message of what Jesus spoke of was lost and warped into the 'religion' it is now over the past couple thousand years.

Lie 5) The Church is a building
Not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean some abstract notion that refers to the general congregation of people in a large group that all follow the same belief structure? Or some common misunderstanding of what someone once said "The Church" was? I'm not sure.

Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters
No, being sincere isn't all that matters. What matters is what you believe to matter and the conclusions you've come to through deductive reasoning and common sense. Using your own innate faculties to make sense of the world around you and how things (people, animals, inanimates) interact. Just being "nice" doesn't really mean anything... does it?

Anywaze, just my aethist verbal rubbish..

reply to post by noonebutme


You may be lucky and have your questions responded to, although i highly doubt it.

This thread doesn't seem to be what it says on the tin... unfortunately

reply to post by noonebutme



Well, it took a few days...

But that was a non emotional thought out polite response...

Thank you for taking the time...

OT

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by noonebutme

 

You may be lucky and have your questions responded to, although i highly doubt it.

This thread doesn't seem to be what it says on the tin... unfortunately

Have to agree with you here, c'mon OT you can do better, you asked the questions and got the replies so why not address the replies ?

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by noonebutme

 

You may be lucky and have your questions responded to, although i highly doubt it.

This thread doesn't seem to be what it says on the tin... unfortunately

Have to agree with you here, c'mon OT you can do better, you asked the questions and got the replies so why not address the replies ?

As i sort of pointed out... This was just another "I'm right and you're wrong" thread.

Or " I'm religious, therefore my views are more important than yours"

Or " how empty it must be to be an atheist" thread.


We've had many insults... including ugly.
Subtle digs and smug answers throughout..... very patronizing and condescending indeed...
Calling names, saying peoples logic is "wanting"...when YOU OT, are talking about Atheists believing lies in of religion.

And YOU OT, are quoting the bible like it's the word of god?? And OUR logic is wanting??

Also it's been Implied that we're all religious whether we like it or not.
OT has not really listened or responded to anyone... just waited for his turn to preach how much better he is than everyone else.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Do you believe the LIES of ‘religion’?

Assuming your conclusion is a big rational no-no.

reply to post by Welfhard


Aside fom that, it seems a tad bit conceited to assume his religon and his god are any more real or powefi