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The coming evangelical collapse

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posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by grover
What part of... this thread is not about attacking Christianity... it is not about attacking Judaism... it is not about attacking any other religion...

... Don't you understand?


Explain. Tell me what I can say and not say, since you are the expert here.

I always thought evangelical Christianity was concerning a religion known as Christianity.

Not? What is it about? This is a thread about how to build a better mousetrap? What.

You tell me. I guess I'm stupid for not understanding. Do you go around reporting people to the mods who say anything critical about any religion at all on these threads? That must keep you pretty darned busy.




posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 


No I do not go around reporting people... the mods are perfectly capable of picking out the jaskasses themselves.

Christianity is far more than evangelical and evangelic Christianity is also far more than how you picture it.

Your posts continue ad hoc attacks on Judaism and that is what I am objecting to... attacks on another religion.

Your take on it is totally skewed and off base... There are plenty of anti-zionist threads around go to them... I am trying to conduct a serious discussion here.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by PowerSlave
Religion was the base of law, without religion there would have been no laws to begin with. These same laws are what drives moral values. ...

Thou shalt not kill....... Well murder is against the law today, and most find murder immoral. So most hold this as a personal value, whether you are religious or not.


Murder is against the law not because it's a religious moral, but because murder is morally wrong, period. Atheists don't murder more people than religious people.

If you think that morality comes from religious books and teachings, why isn't it a law to put people to death who work on the Sabbath?

The truth is that it is people ultimately who choose what is moral or not, because morality comes not from religion or religious books but from man himself.

And this is a scary thought, more so in primitive times, because man is apparently inevitably wired to try to find order in things.


Religion will eventually be a thing of the past, not because of Bible 'prophecies' or evangelicals self-imploding, but because the purpose religion plays today for some people will also for them be replaced by something better and logical: knowledge.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by grover
reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 


No I do not go around reporting people... the mods are perfectly capable of picking out the jaskasses themselves.

Christianity is far more than evangelical and evangelic Christianity is also far more than how you picture it.

Your posts continue ad hoc attacks on Judaism and that is what I am objecting to... attacks on another religion.

Your take on it is totally skewed and off base... There are plenty of anti-zionist threads around go to them... I am trying to conduct a serious discussion here.


I find your remarks condescending and highly insulting. You have called me many names and are trying to tell me I can't post on this thread you started. Your reasons are ridiculous. I am not criticizing Christianity, although other people have done so on this thread, said it is all lies. I am a Christian myself. This thread is specifically about the demise of evangelical Christianity, specificallya the Zionist televangelists ie Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell (now deceased), John Hagee, the TBNers. All these people are flaming ZIONISTS.

If you are not aware of this FACT -- I repeat F - A - C - T - that these televangelists are flaming Zionists and neocons, then you need to go research the subject you are wanting to discuss here. If I have said anything here that is incorrect, you need to present information and facts and reasons. Not be calling me names and telling me not to post here, that I am not allowed to criticize the Zionist Christians who own the airwaves in the name of Evangelical Christianity.

Okay? This is the way things are done here on ATS, from what I can see. People are allowed to hold contrary opinions and those who disagree should present arguments and proofs, not insults and threats to get off the thread.

I could call you plenty of names, but I have not done so. You need to stop calling me names and stop acting in such an immature and ignonant and narrow-minded, condescending and outrageous manner toward me. I haven't seen you tell any of the people who hate Christianity and say it's a pack of lies and the Bible is a pack of lies, I haven't seen you calling any of those people names or telling them they should not be posting here.

This shows your affection and loyalty is aligned with the Zionists and Zionist 'Christians,' (ie fake Christians) not with Christianity at all. Not all Christians think as you do. Many do not. You have no right to try to block off anybody who doesn't agree with your point of view. Just defend your viewpoint if you think Zionism is good, that it has no part in the coming demise of the televangelists.

Do you really think people's support for the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, is increasing? Do you really think support for bombing Gaza into the stone age is also increasing? Do you think people are happy with the huge debt the government has run up waging war on behalf of Israel? Do you really think people are happy with going into tyranny in the name of helping Israel destroy the Muslims? Do you really think the people are happy that the offshore banksters, the British Zionists are stealing trillions of dollars from the American treasury and making plans to tax us for breathing?

If you think your viewpoint is in the majority, it is not.

Sure there are people who sit and watch the televangelists, but most people hate them and despise them for the frauds they are. They are fake, not real Christians at all, and most people can see that very plainly. The majority of Christians want nothing to do with those people with their hairsprayed hairdos, their white suits, their grotesque behavior, their phony healings, their bizarre behavior and, most of all, their warmongering on behalf of Israel.

The sooner we don't have to listen to Pat Robertson, Binny Hin, John Hagee, Ken Copeland, Todd Bentley, and the rest of these Zionist freaks who like to flash the el diablo and call themselves evangelical Christians -- the sooner we don't have to see their faces on TV or be subject to their influence, the BETTER.

I don't hate Christianity. I am a Christian and I love God and I love the Bible. I mean no harm to anybody and oppose war and killing and abortion and murder and warmongering hatred. I hate what the Zionist televangelists are doing to BESMIRCH Jesus and the Bible and to make a mockery of Christianity. I hate Zionism, and I hate the things the Talmud teaches about Jesus and about the goyim, and I hate the insidious effect the Bablylonian Cabala has in the promotion of the Dark Side and the occult in this world.

Jesus said he'd rather we be cold or hot and that he'll spew out the lukewarm. You can't love something truly without hating its nemesis and antithesis and you can't sit on both sides of the fence unless you are a schizophrenic or a doublethink/doublespeak person out of 1984.









[edit on 23-3-2009 by Salt of the Earth]



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 10:52 AM
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Asti Spumanti Dominoes Nabisco



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by smokehouseslim
Asti Spumanti Dominoes Nabisco


I'll second that.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 11:23 AM
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I see no evidence that either Evangelicalism or Christianity as a whole are in any danger of disappearing. The article points out that the current trends in Evangelicalism are the Megachurch, older congregations, and new churches.

The Megachurch was the trend over the past 30 years or so, and that will continue for several more decades. I live a mile or so from one of these Megachurches and I see no evidence that their congregation is shrinking. I live in Georgia of course and if there is shrinkage in the Bible Belt, we would be the last to see it.

The aging congregations is a problem because the elderly don't reproduce, and so these congregations may soon disappear. I would like to point out however, that older people tend to be more active in their churches. Once the kids are grown and the parents retire, they look for more social outlets and church fills that need. Don't be too surprised if the Baby Boomers experience a new religious revival in 10-15 years.

The new churches are probably going to be the trend for the next 50 years or so. New converts tend to be more zealous than more established congregations. Small churches know they are small and they know that they must grow to survive. Also, new churches come into being to fill a niche that has opened up in the society. This is where you see growth in religion.

Religion is like anything else in our society, it is cyclical and it follows a 6 generation pattern. I have read several articles recently that say that our generation is most like the post civil war generation that experienced the "Gay Nineties". The generation that followed that one experienced a religious revivalism that lasted 50 years and whose effects we still see today.

I noticed that the article was written by an Evangelical and I have to question his motivation. There seems to be a kind of fatalism in the Evangelical community. This is because they believe that there must be a period of spiritual darkness before Christ can return. Many would say that we are in that period, but I don't see it that way. So, I am wondering if the author is secretly hoping for the demise of the Christian Church as a sign that Christ is about to return?

IMO religion as a whole and Christianity in particular is in no danger of disappearing, especially in this country.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by Salt of the Earth
I find your remarks condescending and highly insulting. You have called me many names and are trying to tell me I can't post on this thread you started. Your reasons are ridiculous...

...This thread is specifically about the demise of evangelical Christianity, specifically the Zionist televangelists i.e. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell (now deceased), John Hagee, the TBNers. All these people are flaming ZIONISTS...

... This shows your affection and loyalty is aligned with the Zionists and Zionist 'Christians,'...

... Sure there are people who sit and watch the televangelists, but most people hate them and despise them for the frauds they are. They are fake, not real Christians at all, and most people can see that very plainly. The majority of Christians want nothing to do with those people with their hairsprayed hairdos, their white suits, their grotesque behavior, their phony healings, their bizarre behavior and, most of all, their warmongering on behalf of Israel...

The sooner we don't have to listen to Pat Robertson, Binny Hin, John Hagee, Ken Copeland, Todd Bentley, and the rest of these Zionist freaks who like to flash the el diablo and call themselves evangelical Christians -- the sooner we don't have to see their faces on TV or be subject to their influence, the BETTER.

... I hate Zionism, and I hate the things the Talmud teaches about Jesus and about the goyim, and I hate the insidious effect the Bablylonian Cabala has in the promotion of the Dark Side and the occult in this world.

[edit on 23-3-2009 by Salt of the Earth]


I don't know where to start so let me try this tack... your posts read racist and bigoted henceforth its easy for me to see you as such and refer to your posts as such... if that is calling you names so be it... if that's the way you want to see it fine but in reality the closest I have come to actually calling you a name is the jackass referral.

Second: When you refer to Judaism as an anti-Christ religion and damn the Zionists you tread on the same rhetorical path that led to the Russian pogroms of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and led directly to the holocaust... such notions have a loaded and ugly history.

Jesus could not have condemned the Talmud since it was written 400 years after his death. And given the ugly history of prosecution of Jews by Christians hard feelings are easy to understand... be that as it may though I know quite a few Jews and I don't know a one who hates Christians. I am sure they are out there but there is no great Jewish/Zionist conspiracy to undermine and destroy Christianity... such paranoia reeks of the middle ages and "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion"... a known and infamous fraud.

As for the televangelists... I will agree with you that they are money grubbing shysters and anyone who actually turns to them for moral, spiritual and religious guidance is a fool.

I am not allied with anyone thank you very much and if you have read any of my previous postings and threads you will find that I am often critical of Israel and sympathetic of the plight of the Palestinians.

If I am allied with anyone it is those of us who strive for a saner, more humane world.

I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me... if you will go through this thread I have disagreed with several people...

... but then I have already stated my reasons for objecting to your posts.

[edit on 23-3-2009 by grover]



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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No it wont.

Short reply yes but it just wont so yeah..



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by grover

Your posts read racist and bigoted henceforth its easy for me to see you as such and refer to your posts as such... if that is calling you names so be it... if that's the way you want to see it fine but in reality the closest I have come to actually calling you a name is the jackass referral.

Second: When you refer to Judaism as an anti-Christ religion and damn the Zionists you tread on the same rhetorical path that led to the Russian pogroms of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and led directly to the holocaust... such notions have a loaded and ugly history.


This is bologny. Christianity and Islam is damned and criticized all the time. But the Zionists, who run the Federal Reserve, who have literally bankrupted our country and have infiltrated our entire government and turned it to being Israel's puppet, these people are supposed to run the country into the ground and nobody can say a word about the Zionist takeover of America and all its institutions, including the televangelism and what passes for popular evangelism today. Why? What is so special about the Talmud or the Cabala that nobody can mention the evils it contains, or the evil plans to rebuild Solomon's Temple and install the phony Jewish antichrist messiah to rule the world? The Fourth Reich must be allowed to come to fruition without a peep from anybody?


Originally posted by grover
Jesus could not have condemned the Talmud since it was written 400 years after his death.


I said Jesus condemned the traditions of men that now make up the Talmud. There is also the Babylonian Jewish Cabala, which even more evil and the basis for all the Luciferian secret societies.The Jewish law, rabbinical interpretations, superstitions, fables and myths that were then condemned are now compiled into the Talmud. The Cabala is the occultic writings that came out of Babylon, and these were also condemned by Jesus in his all-inclusive condemnation of the "traditions of men that have made null the word of God" that Jesus spoke of.


Originally posted by grover
And given the ugly history of prosecution of Jews by Christians and hard feelings is easy to understand... be that as it may though I know quite a few Jews and I don't know a one who hates Christians. I am sure they are out there but there is no great Jewish/Zionist conspiracy to undermine and destroy Christianity... such paranoia reeks of the Protocols of Zion... an known and infamous fraud.


Well, Brother Nathanael Kapner is a whistleblower, a former Talmudic Jew, and now an orthodox evangelical Christian (not the kind of evangelical we are discussing here in the article you presented). He tells us that the Jews do hate and despise the goyim and documents it in his website . The very word 'goyim' by which the Jews refer to nonJews is an insult and means "cattle" and subhuman. The name for Jesus that is given in the Talmud means "may his name be forever erased from memory." I discussed the Talmud with a Jewish person on one of these threads, and they agreed the Talmud was full of hatred toward Jesus and goyim, but this person said they didn't buy into the Talmud. Well, plenty of Jews do buy into it, especially the ones who are running our country right now and the ones who rule in Israel.

The Torah is the Old Testament scriptures, and for serious Jewish students, the Talmud and Cabala are their MOST holy (supposed) book, NOT the Torah. Zionism is an ugly and dangerous ideology that is aimed to a Fourth Reich. Many Jews deplore Zionism. Zionism is the desire to rule the world and destroy (kill) all the perceived enemies of the Jews. Zionism also proposes to rebuild Solomon's Temple, to knock down the Dome of the Rock to do so, and then to resume sacrifice for sin. Jesus condemned the temple, yet Zionist Christians want to help the Jews rebuild it. Kissenger, Brezenski and many others are Zionist Jews, agents of the British Zionists, are people who run our country on behalf of the British Zionists. Another agent for the Zionists is Rahm Emanuel, the chief of staff of Obama, who pulls his puppet strings totally on behalf of his masters in London. Rahm Emanuel is Mossad, a dual citizen Jew.

Israel First means America last and finally just goodbye America, it means WWIII, it means nuking Iran. None of these things are good or what any sincere Christian would think of supporting.

Jews are no more special than anybody else, and they need to believe in Jesus the same as everybody else. They are not collectively God on earth, as the Zionists suppose them to be, and they are not super-beings who deserve to get their own country based on the false and evil religion of Babylonian Cabalism and Talmudism. Furthermore, our Constitution forbids Congress to establish any state religion, and Christians cannot even sing carols at Christmas or put up a cresche at Christmas in the town square. Yet we are supposed to fight and die to kill all the perceived enemies of the Zionist Talmudics and help them erect a temple Jesus condemned so they can blaspheme him by resuming animal sacrifice for sin, a sacrifice he already made 2000 years ago when Jesus came as the Lamb of God.

The Satanic Bible is evil and I condemn that too. If you have any evidence or proof that the Talmud and/or Cabala are any less evil than the Satanic Bible of Anton LaVey, please introduce your evidence instead of condemning people like me who object to underwriting these wicked books to the point of helping the Jews to steal Palestine and erect a Fourth Reich on the back of WWIII.


Originally posted by grover
As for the televangelists... I will agree with you that they are money grubbing shysters and anyone who actually turns to them for moral, spiritual and religious guidance is a fool.


Yes, they are moneygrubbers, but they are also Zionists, all of them. The reason they are able to grub all the money they do is because they do the work of the Zionists who own the airwaves. Were they to oppose the war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gaza, Lebanon, the planned attack on Iran, Russia and China, to oppose the bankster takeover of America, they would not be allowed to promote their nonsense as they do, their shysterism as you say.

John Hagee has nothing going for him at all other than his promotion of a pretrib rapture and a glorification of Judaism to the point he says Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah, and that he never offered himself to be the Messiah to the Jews.

Plenty of Christians have been persecuted and killed, way far more than the Jews, and nobody hesitates to say all manner of criticism against Christians. Why must the Zionist Jews be allowed to have a blank check to ravage the entire world and nobody can criticize them, or criticize the so-called Christians who want to help them accomplish their world destruction.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 

I'd like to remind you that Jesus was a Jew. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. There is no way, really, to separate the theology of the two other than one believes Jesus was a prophet and the other believes he was the Son of God. Both have roots in the Old Testament.

Beyond that, I just note that this is pretty much an atheist vs. believer thread like a zillion others on ATS. I'm hesitant to even comment again, but here's my 2 cents.

I have been through periods of both devout religiosity and skeptical atheism in my life. The first led to ideals I cannot live up to as a mere mortal and the other to the most miserable, dark and egocentric period of my existence. I am still coming to a reconciliation between the two, but I am heading in the direction of desiring some set of values I can believe in that satisfies both my spirtitual longings and my rational self.

I think there's room in the world for almost all peaceful, non-violent sets of beliefs or non-beliefs. "Whatever floats your boat."



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by Night Watchman
 





You do realize that Jesus and his disciples were JEWISH, right?


Oh my god n, Jewish ?

but wasn't it against jewish law to consume blood?

And these people went around conducting mock flesh eating blood drinking ceremonies !!!

No wonder they needed to be dispatched.

Hope you've not mentioned this to any xtians they may get even more confused than they already are.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Fanatical idiots are tedious... God bless the programmer who put in the ignore button.


Bye bye.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by seagull
I make no great claims to being a religious man, I'm not. But to blame religion itself for the actions of the people within it is just as stupid as you claim believers are.


I agree it's not just the religion which is at fault...
However, when a holy book says 'whoever has a different religious belief, kill him', then I'd say a lot of blame should be placed on religion.
In this case, it is actually the person who is following their religion to the letter who becomes a killer.

It's illegal for someone to follow the Bible to the letter.
Why? Because killing your children for disobeying is illegal and immoral. Killing gays because God doesn't like gays is illegal and immoral. Killing rape victims is illegal and immoral. Destroying towns who don't believe in God is illegal and immoral.

The law comes first, then you can do whatever the Hell you want with religion. The problem is that some people take their religion as a greater authority than the law.
So which system is at fault?
The religion or the law?
You can't really place all the blame on the people, because they are simply following their religion.
They're not killing just to kill, they're killing because their religion says to kill.



Originally posted by seagull
Religion has been the excuse for countless acts of barbarity, I can't, I won't deny that.


Not just the excuse, the cause.
Many people fought and killed for their religion.



Originally posted by seagull
But the flip side of that coin is it's also been the excuse for countless acts of the creation of beauty, acts of compassion. Looking at one side of any story is somewhat shortsighted.


True, nothing is all bad or all good, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the bad. We should place blame where blame is due.
Some religious texts are, to put it mildly, crazy - and they should not be followed. Just as if I wrote a note to someone which said to kill another person, that note should not be followed.


 




Originally posted by smokehouseslim
Asti Spumanti Dominoes Nabisco


Nabisco?
You mean those little cookies?
Mmmmm



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
when you write lies and promote fairy tales as truth... what do you expect? Who goes to a liar for advice? Sounds reasonable to me.


Your argument could apply to politicians, lawyers, journalists, doctors, the mainstream media, those who author history books, those who write speeches for politicians, school teachers, song lyrics written by popular bands and artists, corporate earnings reports, etc.

For some of us, God offers true hope, not the crap that Barack Obama offers if you cast a vote for him.

With all of the stuff in the first paragraph that I mentioned that this world has to offer, you must have one heck of a life to not need God in it. Kudos to you!



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by sos37
 


What does this thread have to do with Barack Obama? There are plenty of other Obama attack threads posted... I suggest you take it there.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by grover
reply to post by sos37
 


What does this thread have to do with Barack Obama? There are plenty of other Obama attack threads posted... I suggest you take it there.


Please learn how to read and then comment again. Thank you for trying reality.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by PowerSlave
Religion was the base of law, without religion there would have been no laws to begin with. These same laws are what drives moral values. ...

Thou shalt not kill....... Well murder is against the law today, and most find murder immoral. So most hold this as a personal value, whether you are religious or not.


Murder is against the law not because it's a religious moral, but because murder is morally wrong, period. Atheists don't murder more people than religious people.



Just the serial killers happen to be atheist's

heheh



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by grover
reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 


No I do not go around reporting people... the mods are perfectly capable of picking out the jaskasses themselves.

Christianity is far more than evangelical and evangelic Christianity is also far more than how you picture it.

Your posts continue ad hoc attacks on Judaism and that is what I am objecting to... attacks on another religion.

Your take on it is totally skewed and off base... There are plenty of anti-zionist threads around go to them... I am trying to conduct a serious discussion here.


I have a theory about that guy, he did the same thing in another thread I was in and started accusing me of being a sicko zionist pig or words to that effect. He mis-reps all the time so watch it

see here www.abovetopsecret.com...

I never heard from him again after that but then again he was busted pretty bad there and had no leg to stand on but to give an apology

Good thing I wasn't holding my breath



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 07:09 PM
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People have their odd obsessions & anxieties over other people's religious beliefs - we see a lot of it directed at Christians, but you can see the same kind of slander directed at Muslims or at Jews, where the behavior of some small minority is projected onto the whole group.

It's nothing new, and the people venting their spleens at Christians should be looking at how humans adopt & act on belief systems in general, not just the one's they're bent about


As I said earlier in the thread, in the last century we saw two non-religious belief systems, Communism and Fascism, produce bodycounts that it's unlikely any religion will ever be able to match, and plenty of utterly irrational behavior.

Even more ironically, both belief systems labeled themselves as "rational" and "scientific"


Science is not a belief system, it's a process, a method.

Turn science into a belief system, and your "beliefs" will have to go down the tubes every few years as science sweeps away old theories and introduces new ones that better fit the facts.




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