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3 officers dead, suspect killed in Oakland, Calif.

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posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 02:58 AM
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In California the law allows civil forfeiture, basically police seizure of property to happen very easily. For example, a simple meeting of a car club can get labeled a 'sideshow' and every vehicle the police pull over can be subject to forfeiture. Even a house is not safe. The authorities (courts, police whoever) to use a variety of laws. For vehicles it is a 'sideshow', emissions or as in this story alleged 'complaints' to satisfy the laws for forfeiture. When all else fails and it is something like a house they use eminent domain or when they have no direct reasoning they can use drugs as an excuse. The problem lies in the fact that even if you are never tried in a court for a crime they still get to keep the property. Even if they are tried in court and found innocent they often can keep property. How many times have we heard here on ATS how people are stocking up on weapons to protect their property and rights? Due to lax civil forfeiture laws in CA making property a whimsical decision of the authorities many people feel they are protecting their families from homelesness, their livelihood (in the case of a seized car - getting back and forth to work) and they also feel they are just. Criminals like the one in this story are even more under the microscope and subject to these laws. I won't even go into the statistics of people incarcerated in this state, the petty crimes they are accused of doing, the prison overcrowding and the fact based on county to county statistics that if accused they are guilty and must prove innocence or might as well be guilty.

The three strikes law also does effect the criminal. The criminals often feel that if they are going away for life for felony traffic stop (as in this story since he was on probation and stopped at a 'sideshow') then they might as well and try to make a run for it. If a few cops die in the process it really does not matter as they are going away for life anyways. Even if by some chance they get the death penalty the chances are greater they will die by some other violent force long before the state gets to them.

Finally, this is not a cop hate-posting. It is simply a fact about forfeiture in CA. This state is all about the money from forfeiture especially since the agency who does seize property usually keeps the property or money.




posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by GTORick
 


Very good points to bring up. I wonder if California actually see's a larger number of 2 strike criminals involved in shootings and chases then another state without the 3 strike rule does.

When I was around 20 we use to street race ( that's like 9 years ago). The people I hung out with were very careful about what we did and would have streets blocked off in industrial areas that were not used at that time of night. They later added to the law that if you witnessed street racing you could be found guilty just like the racers and if you were in your car they could impound it even if you were just on the side of the road. Because of this law I saw many people that normally wouldn't have needed to do anything turn into people that were getting in their cars and running from the cops.

It would be very sad if shootings happened just because people were afraid of losing their cars due to these "sideshows" ( what a stupid name)



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by v3_exceed

a person was pulled over for a traffic stop by 4 police officers? A gun fight ensues and the suspect dies, 4 police are injured or worse. What was this persons crime? I mean what was the crime before the gun fight? Speeding? DWI? we simply don't know.


Hello v3;

From the article I saw, 3 officers dead, suspect killed in Oakland, Calif. 2 motorcycle officers stopped a car, and the driver, Lovelle Mixon opened fire, killing one and wounding the other.

He then fled on foot, leading to a massive manhunt by dozens of Oakland police. An annonymous tip led police to a nearby apartment building. A S.W.A.T. team entered, and 2 more officers were killed, as well as Mixon in the resulting gun battle.

The article states that Mixon was wanted for a parole violation; (parole for assault with a deadly weapon) and a warrant had been issued for his arrest.


something caused the situation to escalate. Was it the testosterone of the 4 police? Was the suspect on drugs? We will probably never know...
I just don't believe some guy, getting stopped by 4 officers is going to wig out and start shooting unprovoked.


Well, allegedly, that is exactly what happened. But I agree with ya about having more third-party-outside investigators in police investigations.

BTW- I gave you a star for each of your posts!



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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How do you discuss this story without discussing the nature of the police in the area or whether they're "good or bad" to put it in simplified terms. I find it pretty telling that passerbys in the areas mocked the police after the first round of shootings. Suffice it to say I don't think the Oakland cops are much appreciated or respected in their own communities.



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
How do you discuss this story without discussing the nature of the police in the area or whether they're "good or bad" to put it in simplified terms. I find it pretty telling that passerbys in the areas mocked the police


How can you discuss this without discussing the fact that Law Enforcements job is far more dangerous than it once was and could that be what is leading to bad behavior on the part of the Police.

I've watched as society has devolved from a time when if a child saw a Police Car they would signal the Officer to sound their siren and get a smile and a wave in return, to a society where children run when they see the Police.

Bad behavior among civilians has increased dramatically in my life and I've watched the Police behavior mirror it. Police behavior is simply mirroring the erosion of families and communities as we move towards a Secular Society without moral foundation.

Children, do you know where your Parents are?

[edit on 3/22/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 09:21 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


That is the best post I have seen on ATS to describe exactly what has happened over the past number of years...perfect...starred!!



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 09:31 PM
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25 years in prison for three strikes... 25 years = life. Life = third strike you have nothing to loose.

Stricter laws create crazier criminals and more paranoid police.



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by rcwj75
 

I second that, rcwj, STAR for both of you!
Way to go, Blaine!



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 10:41 PM
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Early reports are that he used an SKS semi-automatic rifle.

Not only is this weapon one that was NOT covered by the 1994 AWB, most versions of it are perfectly legal to own even in California.

Talk of linking this in any way to the AWB is false.

I would however support any bill that proposes the mass euthanasia of the residents of Oakland.



posted on Mar, 22 2009 @ 11:58 PM
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I wonder if one condition for parole was employment. He couldn’t get a job with a felony so were they going to put him back in jail for violation. Maybe if it possible for him to get a job this wouldn’t have happened. If you’re not going to allow him to get a job don’t put him in jail for it.

The shooting didn’t stem from a bank robbery or another crime.


People are catching on to the prison privatization scam, some people anyway.

Not all cops are good or bad, they are people. The same goes for people caught in the system.

Nelson Mandela was in jail so was Ghandi ( not the end of story).



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:03 AM
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by the way it was four officers that were killed in oakland calif.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by PG1946
 


They retracted that update so I didn't post it. Currently it's 3 dead and 1 on life support as far as I can find.

If I'm wrong let me know and I can update the main post. But link to the update please.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by whoshotJR


Lets not make this into a thread about cops being bad or good. I wanted to point out this story because of the rise in tensions in areas lately and in Oakland after the last shooting its getting pretty heated.



I think with that comment you sort of made it about good cops and bad cops.

I am not a "fan" of anything. Except maybe the truth as well as we can know it. Not a fan of cops or downtrodden criminals. When a cop is dirty, he is dirty. When he is wrong, he is wrong. But for me the same goes for the criminals.

In this case, I do feel for the police officers who were killed and their families. There are a lot of good police officers, and unfortunately they dont always make the news the same way the bad ones do.

It would be nice to see some of the good side of the police shown here on ATS for a little balance. We do tend to focus on the articles that show the bad side of them, and really of most things.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by whoshotJR
 


For some reason It wont let me edit my original post.

www.comcast.net...

That's a link to the updated story about the suspect.

The family will be taking the last cop off life support soon and it will be 4 total police dead and the suspect.

In a nut shell the guy was on his last leg with the law and couldn't find a job so that was a violation of his probation.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by Swatman
there might be a few bad cops, but theres no good criminals. end of story


Too bad for you that those "criminals" have rights.

And I'm positively, absolutely 100% sure you have disobeyed a law or two in your own lifetime. Does that make you a "bad" person?



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Plasma applicator

The shooting didn’t stem from a bank robbery or another crime.


No but the fact that he was a convicted felon on parole who was armed with a handgun and a semi-automatic rifle tends to indicate that he had something other than a tea party in mind for his upcoming social schedule.



Not all cops are good or bad, they are people. The same goes for people caught in the system.


On balance I would dare to suggest that there is a slightly higher percentage of "bad" people among the prison population, than there is among the officers sworn to protect us from them.



Nelson Mandela was in jail so was Ghandi ( not the end of story).


And your logic here is what - felons are all really world leaders at heart and we should let them all go??



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by Swatman
there might be a few bad cops, but theres no good criminals. end of story


Too bad for you that those "criminals" have rights.

And I'm positively, absolutely 100% sure you have disobeyed a law or two in your own lifetime. Does that make you a "bad" person?


theres a difference between breaking the law and being a violent fugitive



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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I think that this puts perspective on what it must be like to be a police officer.

Every time that you pull over a car you have to be prepared for a vicious armed criminal. Of course most of the time you just pull over some regular people. But, you can't tell a "regular" person from a violent criminal just by looking.

You have to get their id and run it through the computer system.

So for those young people who choose to dress like a gangster, how do you expect to be treated? If you dress like a thug then, you're creating additional stress on the officer. They have to be that much more alert just in case. They are just a little closer to the edge.

Then, if you suddenly reach in a pocket... What can happen?

There are violent armed people out there and we hope that the police force can protect the rest of society from these vicious thugs.



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Swatman

theres a difference between breaking the law and being a violent fugitive


You are right, there is a difference between a jaywalker and a violent fugitive.

But there is no difference between a jaywalker and a criminal. Anyone who breaks the law, is a criminal. And since virtually everyone has broken the law, that makes us all criminals. I am a very rule oriented person, but I assure you, I too have broken the law.

Thats why he reacted the way he did to your blanket statement that "there are no good criminals." Because it just isnt true. In a society where virtually every single one of us has broken a law at one time or another, even if unwittingly, we are all criminals, and we are NOT all bad people.

Statements like yours sound good, but when you lump all criminals into the same easy generalization, you are making an error of reason. The guy who loitered, littered, stole a pack of gum as a child, drove five miles over the speed limit and rode his bike on the sidewalk is not necessarily a bad person.

Situations with law enforcement need to be looked at on a case by case basis. Often, the "bad guys" really are the bad guys. But sometimes the "good guys" are the bad guys. Generalizations are the intellectual easy way out, and they are rarely the truth.

[edit on 23-3-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Mar, 23 2009 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by Swatman
theres a difference between breaking the law and being a violent fugitive


Touche. I'll give you that. But, doesn't breaking a law make you a criminal? Do you know every single law on the books?

I'm not defending the civilian (criminal) in this case and I feel sorry for the policemen and their families that are now wrecked.

I was just pointing out that we are all criminals when it comes to the definition of criminal.


crim⋅i⋅nal
   /ˈkrɪmənl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [krim-uh-nl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime.
3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.
4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food.
5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun
6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.


dictionary.reference.com...

[edit on 3/23/2009 by Griff]



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