Main Reason Why Our Great Republic is Being destroyed.

I believe this message is important for every American, and even for people of other nations to understand us.

The following is part of the response I gave to the poster who wrote the thread "It's time..."

Any society that embraces Marxism, or any of it's forms will always become a Communist dictatorship. Just like any society that allows Corporations, and the rich to get all the power will become a Fascist Dictatorship.

There have to be some compromises, but even those compromises must be for the good of all, and not just a few people, or the mayority of the people, hence the perfect society for humans beings imo, are Representative Republics.

Our Republic is being attacked, and it is being dismantled slowly, but surely. With the new administration the dismantling is picking up pace at break-neck speed.

If we allow the present administration to continue to implement laws that are only being implemented to control us, and to dismantle this Great Republic, we will soon have no way of taking our country back.

We have to let them know what we, the people really want. People should understand the country they are living on. Unfortunately part of the reason why our country is being dismantled, is because most Americans have not even read, or understand our Constitution, our Bills of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and every document and facet by which this Great Republic was founded.

This is the reason why there is so much division in the United States. Even people who embrace some parts of the Constitution, or the Bills of Rights, disregard other parts of these sacred documents which were written for all future generations of America.

When people vote for a candidate to presidency of the United States of America who states loud, and clear that "we need a new Declaration of Independence", or that "the old documents by which this nation was founded are obsolete" or makes similar statements, these Americans are voting to dismantle the Great Republic.

People have to begin to read every one of these documents by which our nation was founded, and understand that they were written to give every single American, as well as every single Human being, unalienable rights, and I quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

www.ushistory.org...

We can't just abide by some of the values given by these documents, we have to abide, and understand every single one of them, and have to uphold and defend every one of them.

I am not saying that Atheists should become religious, nor that everyone from every religion should be Christian either, but rather that part of what we need to do to regain our Great Republic again is to understand what "religious freedom means".

Separation of Church and State should exist, just like our forefathers stated, but this doesn't mean that some groups have the right to strike the word "God", or "Creator" from every facet of our American society.

If the forefathers of this nation wanted this, they would have never included the words "God", or "Creator" in the documents which are the building blocks of this Great Republic.

Americans have to understand to separate those ideologies, some people want to hold on to, which disregard any of the values given by the documents, which our forefathers gave us for all future generations of Americans.

When Americans start doing this, when Americans begin to get acquainted with these "sacred" documents, only then we will start taking our country back.




[edit on 21-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I say when people mean what they say known to be true because of their actions, right or wrong, we can burn the constitution by becoming it.
The problem isn't with the state, they are only the outcome of our own reflection. By deflecting responsibility we reflect irresponsibility. It's not about knowing the constitution of written document, it's about the constitution of man himself, which when idle, stops penning the laws of fortitude. That is why we call it a living document, but men have stopped living. That is the tenet that has fallen so low and we are each individually responsible for that.

The best we can do is to live these tenets. Be the words and your message never even need be said.

That document will burn with everything else eventually and new ones will be put in it's place, but until men stop living by documents on paper they will not see true freedom, because anything written can be interpreted and the words twisted to suit a meaning, but knowing within yourself and teaching the same to your children, to live a moral constitution for the good of man, well those words can not be amended, because they are truth and life.

Peace

We are not just Spirit, we are matter too. Those documents that you call "papers" are part of us. They tell us how, and why this Great Republic was founded, and those papers show us those rights we were given for every future generation. "Living Documents" are like living things, They are not alive per say but they embody everything good that our forefathers granted us when they founded this nation.

If you change those "living documents" then you destroy the Republic. Yes, laws will change with time, but at least for now whatever laws are made have to abide by those "Living Documents", otherwise we will only change our Great Republic into a Confused Nation, which is almost the state our Great Republic is in right now.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I agree that if a society allows the rich to get all the power, that society will inevitably become a dictatorship, however that's why I think all representative republics will fail. Any time you allow a chosen group of people to form law for the rest of society, those same people will always become the target of bribery and power-mongering by others pursuing their own self-interest. The representatives will always give in to corruption, and it will become commonplace. They will start forming law in the pursuit of their financial interests rather than in the interests of the people, and freedom will be lost.

This is why I believe that the only stable, free society is a democracy, where all citizens can form law based on popular vote. In such a society, who do you bribe? I can't imagine how you could undermine such a society through bureaucracy and political mongering, as you would have to have the majority of the people read, understand, and then vote on every law passed. It sounds to me, almost Utopian.

I think the reason most people in our republic don't even know all our laws is because they don't need to. They aren't involved in the governance of our nation. We can complain to our representatives about anything all day, but in the end they hold all the power. Majority opinion doesn't influence our representatives, they don't represent us, that's why abomination bills like the Ammunition Accountability Legislation and H.R.875, which would seize a person's property for growing their own food, are allowed to enter congress. If these people really represent our interests, really understand our constitution, why would they propose these things? Any person you see on the street knows we have the right to own guns, and most definitely the right to grow our own food, irregardless of how much law they know, but it doesn't matter. We can't influence our government, which is why we don't know law. It's not taught to us in school, because we don't need to know.

I know some people would like to live free without having to take a part in government, forming law, but I don't think that's possible, at least long-term. In my opinion, republics will always fail. The Roman Republic failed, the American Republic will fail. For a society to live free, everyone must be involved.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
We are not just Spirit, we are matter too. Those documents that you call "papers" are part of us. They tell us how, and why this Great Republic was founded, and those papers show us those rights we were given for every future generation. "Living Documents" are like living things, They are not alive per say but they embody everything good that our forefathers granted us when they founded this nation.

If you change those "living documents" then you destroy the Republic. Yes, laws will change with time, but at least for now whatever laws are made have to abide by those "Living Documents", otherwise we will only change our Great Republic into a Confused Nation, which is almost the state our Great Republic is in right now.

I see your spirit and understand your fight, but it doesn't matter what is written on paper if men don't follow it.

Destroy the government and it will rise again, because again, if people don't have it with in themselves to do what is right to one another when given responsibility to mind the affairs of every citizen, then a new dictator is waiting in the wings.

The first thing to dismantle is our education system. You know this great document, but I'm willing to bet you couldn't name back 4 Generations in your own family. We've lost touch with who we are as individuals and that is why we've turned into a crowd.

I see your heart friend, but I just believe it is the wrong direction. We've done the constitution for over 200 years.

Hey, I'm really saying nothing different then the constitution, it should be "self-evident".

Peace

Originally posted by peskyhumans

I agree that if a society allows the rich to get all the power, that society will inevitably become a dictatorship, however that's why I think all representative republics will fail. Any time you allow a chosen group of people to form law for the rest of society, those same people will always become the target of bribery and power-mongering by others pursuing their own self-interest. The representatives will always give in to corruption, and it will become commonplace. They will start forming law in the pursuit of their financial interests rather than in the interests of the people, and freedom will be lost.

This is why I believe that the only stable, free society is a democracy, where all citizens can form law based on popular vote. In such a society, who do you bribe? I can't imagine how you could undermine such a society through bureaucracy and political mongering, as you would have to have the majority of the people read, understand, and then vote on every law passed. It sounds to me, almost Utopian.
.................................................

You see, this is the problem, you, like many Americans don't understand what a representative Republic is.

People don't even understand what a Democracy is. In a Democracy 51% of the people can ban ALL the rights of the other 49% of the people, if the mayority votes for it. In a Democracy "the mayority rules", that is a Democracy.

A Democracy would be a place for example like Iraq was under Saddam Hussein, where the mayority, the "Shi'ites" ruled over the minority, such as the "Kurds", and the mayority trampled over the rights of the minority.

Democracies don't work, because they are also dictatorships, where the mayority rules over the minority.

We can't never have a society where everyone has power to pass laws, unless everyone agreed by their own choice just to follow one set of rules, one religion, etc. Because if everyone, in the United States, or any other country had the right to pass their own laws, then those countries and societies will fall into chaos.

Everyone has different ideas on what is moral, what is immoral, what is right, and what is wrong, etc. If everyone in this country had the power to pass their own laws then you would have people wanting to pass laws to completely eradicate religions, meanwhile others will try to pass laws where their own religion, or way of life rules. This is Anarchy, and Anarchy, no matter how much Anarchists try to sugar coat it, is Chaos.

Our Forefathers knew, and understood this, which is why our nation was founded as a Representative Republic, where EVERYONE is, or should be represented, but where people have to reach compromises based on our Constitution, and our Bills of Rights.

ALL forms of governments can become corrupt, which is why our forefathers gave us the right to change the government if it became dictatorial. People have become too complacent, and this is part of the reason why we are at the stage we are.

If people read, and learnt to understand those sacred documents our forefathers founded this nation on, then we would have never been in this situation.

We do not need a new Declaration of Independence. We do not need a new Constitution, nor a new Bills of Rights, what we need to do is uphold, and protect the documents in which this Great nation was founded on. The same documents which our forefathers gave for all future generations of Americans.


[edited to add comment]

[edit on 21-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

I see your spirit and understand your fight, but it doesn't matter what is written on paper if men don't follow it.

Destroy the government and it will rise again, because again, if people don't have it with in themselves to do what is right to one another when given responsibility to mind the affairs of every citizen, then a new dictator is waiting in the wings.

The first thing to dismantle is our education system. You know this great document, but I'm willing to bet you couldn't name back 4 Generations in your own family. We've lost touch with who we are as individuals and that is why we've turned into a crowd.

I see your heart friend, but I just believe it is the wrong direction. We've done the constitution for over 200 years.

Hey, I'm really saying nothing different then the constitution, it should be "self-evident".

Peace

If men don't follow sets of rules, and laws, as for example traffic laws, then there would be more accidents, more deaths and in summary there would be chaos.

I also understand what you are trying to say, but we are also human. We are part animal, and as humans every one of us has been defined differently by the experiences we have gone through life, and how our ow morality, and sense of right and wrong was shaped depending on what conclusions we reached because of our life experience.

We do not live in a world where everyone will do what is right for others, as much as to themselves.

There are many ideologies, religions, ways of life, etc.

In reality, deep down inside, what every one of us is made out of, is the same. Yes, we all are connected. But as humans most people lose this connection, and instead we are shaped by how we interpret the experiences of our individual lives.

As such, and because as humans we are different in many ways, there has to be laws, sets of rules that make certain that we are as free as long as we also are responsible. Responsible towards the lives, and well being of those who surround us. Not only our loved ones, but everyone we come in contact with.

Of course, even somewhat following the laws, and sets of rule many people still don't care about others as much as they care for themselves.

This is the main reason why we do need sets of laws that defend the rights of every individual. But those laws, and sets of rules also punishes those who cause harm towards others.

I am not sure when every man, woman and child that is alive will ever agree to follow on their own accord, and by their own free will, to follow just one set of rulse, just one religion, or no religion at all. It is very possible this will never happen, because after all, we are human.

However, what I can tell you is that for now, and for quite a while we will still need laws, sets of rules. We will still need the Constitution of these United States, as well as other countries. We will need the Bill of Rights to guarantee to every man, woman, and child certain unalienable rights.

No my friend, we cannot relinquish our Constitution, our Bills of Rights. We cannot forget the Declaration of independence that the forefathers of this Great Republic set on paper for all future generations of Americans.



[edit on 21-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Ah, and one more thing, we haven't "done the Constitution for 200 years", and the Constitution is not something you are done with either.

The forefathers adviced us against many dangers which have now taken power.

For the first 180 years or so many Americans did not have rights. Now, and for several years criminals have had, and have more rights than the law abiding.

There are groups which started infiltrating the government decades ago, and have been doing so since then with the intention of changing the Republic, and slowly that's exactly what has happened.

Now we have an administration which is hell bend on changing everything, to the point of calling for a need for a new Declaration of Independence, and with a disregard for the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, more so than almost any other administration before it. And many Americans have been brainwashed to think "this is for the good of all", when that is not the truth.

Many Americans have been made to believe that the word "change" always means change for good. Even thou only 3 months has the current administration been in power, yet from all the changes that have been implemented, no good change has come. Instead the Great Republic is being transformed faster now than ever into something it was never supposed to become.



[edit on 21-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Your Great Republic was created as compromise...it's eventual death was guaranteed the moment it was born. The type of Government you operate under is as irrelevent as whether I eat my rice with a spoon or fork, governments are machines.

Our government, if we need one at all, should be able to become what it must be. It must be flexible and it is. The idea that Communism or Fascism are inherently more durable or unchangeable than your ideal, the Representative Republic, is misleading, as they will also die or breakdown.

Your assertion is nothing more than an attempt instill fear...That something must be done before its too late. This is the real problem, I think. There seems to be a camp that really believes that they must control every aspect of the government to maintain their artificial social roles. They are losing this control and they are scared.

If a representative democracy is what should be, in a free nation, it is what it will be. If it should be something else, then in time it will become that.

All rigid structures whatever they may be, however useful you think they are to you, will utimately be destroyed. It is inevitable.

Even the Great Pyramid at Giza rests upon a flexible foundation, some kind of ball and socket system I think, as the builder knew that no matter how formidable his creation was, if it is too rigid, too firm, the stresses of change and time will eventually destroy it; just like everything else.

The day we made communists editors of the largest newspapers in the country and heads of movie and TV studios we were lost: any government based on 'votes' is truly based on 'who holds the gold' and 'who holds the media' because the gold buys the media buys the influence of the population for the votes.

The day we handed our government money to a private financial corporation without accountability, we lost: he who has the gold, rules, no matter what we pretend in the meantime.

The day we allowed government features designed for private citizens, such as lobbying, to become tools of corporation, we lost: no citizenry group can compete with the money in corporations, and any representative government is inherently vulnerable to what influences those representatives.

The day we allowed the 'corporate shield' to excuse criminally harmful behavior, and allowed companies to become parasites that take their salary money and tax money to other countries but then sell freely as an american company here, we lost: only so many 'drains' so large can go on until the economy begins to reflect the problem.

The day we allowed schooling as a butt in a chair or the color of skin to matter more than the expectation of actual education, we lost: you can only expect individuals to vote intelligently based on being educated about the nature of their country and its most important and fundamental precepts, if those individuals are decently educated about it to begin with.

The day we decided that compromise as a form of government meant compromising people in politics like the mutants who are much of the republican party today, and lost the true conservative nature of the party, we lost: compromise means 'about the middle of the two sides' and when one side itself moves nearly to the middle, the new 'middle between' moved literally over to the left.

I admire that there are people who actually think there is hope. When I was about 18 I discovered that the 'America' I'd been quite effectively indoctrinated about in the early 1970s at the beginning of school, only vaguely resembled the country where I lived. I was aghast, enraged, and eventually disillusioned and cynical. I have more optimism now at 43 than I did at 19, but I still think we're already falling, and have been for awhile: it's just that the tree is so big, it was slow to begin, but now that it's toppling it will speed up as it goes down.

If it were an official war I'd join the rebels. But boring some cute college kid in a capital office with my email, letter or phone call about something that to some degree, even the person with the representative vote either can't change, or won't because I can't compete with lobbyists, is a pointless waste of time. What I'd like to go to war about is WHY it's a waste of time, but thanks to all of the above, things have devolved to the point where that's just the way it is.

PJ

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


A dictatorship oppresses the majority of the people in a society. In a way, its much like what we have now, with minority opinions being paraded around congress by politicians who want just a few more votes.

Majority rule is not a dictatorship, it is an ideal society. No society can make everyone happy, the best any society can do is try to make the majority happy.

Our founding fathers, however educated, were naive if they thought that a chosen few could represent the many. It should be obvious that if people are not involved in maintaining their freedom, then they will lose it. A republic, by design, will cause people to lose their freedom. The power of law is placed in other people's hands.

Give it up. Idiocracy is upon us. Let Father Darwin have his way with this worthless population.

Originally posted by RedCairo
...even the person with the representative vote either can't change, or won't because I can't compete with lobbyists, is a pointless waste of time. What I'd like to go to war about is WHY it's a waste of time, but thanks to all of the above, things have devolved to the point where that's just the way it is.

PJ

How about this, the American People can gather up and pool together a whackload of cash and BUY some change, change you can count on.
The American people must be like the lobbiests and donate!

In the US gubmint, they know one thing; money, cash can buy change.
A donation from the 'People of the United States Corporation Inc.'

Just a few hundred thousand Americans to donate only $1.00 to the cause can buy you the politician and the change you need.

Money is their god, when money talks, then they listen.

Face it; it's true, just $1.00 people.

Originally posted by Grumble
Give it up. Idiocracy is upon us. Let Father Darwin have his way with this worthless population.

The people (populations) embrace ignorance through cowardice, thats the reason the 'great republic' is coming down...hopefully soon; and all others, for they are abominations. One nuclear bomb detonation anywhere in the World will escalate this immediately.

And continually spewing the 'jesu is god' concoction-contrivance is leading the way. Consider that most western nations are of xtian dominance, and there you have it: fools enslaved by the greedy, who become the powerful, who become merciless, who....

All in a nutshell.


People are waking up due to shock, but the deadly serpents are already upon them. They will be eaten alive. Literally and figuratively (actual!). As they 'break out of their shells' (of comfortable ignorance), the ravenous hordes are scooping them up for their larders, like opportunistic beasts of prey. And this is justly deserved, for such seed is worthless, and must be cast out as unsuitable meal, without leavening.

So, igorance + greed = the world today. The crop is spoiled, the greedy are being unveiled, and will be destroyed along with the ignorant.

Why complain? You won't 'do' anything about it: type a response, watch tv, go play in the sandbox of life. So fun; unfortunately, playtime is over.

And stop thinking you can 'buy off' your masters. The whip is what you'll get. I know, come up with plausible correction concepts: that'll do it!...always worked before, not. "Who took the enemy down? We are betrayed."

Get Ready.

[edit on 22-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

I laughed when I heard Obama talk about "A new Declaration of Independance". Any reader of the document can plainly see that it is a list of grievances directed at a tyranny, and a demand for redress.

Is Obama going to craft a new list of grievances?

Who will he send it to?

Singapore built an economic power in 30-years. How?

They figured out, the only resources they had were the people. Nothing less, or more.

They seemed to have created a strictly guarded society but with the right intentions. All around the best educations, and principles.

A business is not a business without a businessplan.


Without a genuine guide to relay on people will abuse it and take shortcuts.

[edit on 22-3-2009 by Namness]

reply to post by huckfinn


The foundations of a nation are it's spirit.

Am I saying this out of fear? you bethcha, I was born under a dictatorship, and I am seeing this country which I took an oath to make it my own, and for which I forbade all my ties to the country I was born in because it had lost it's soul, and people were, and are systematically being starved to death, and oppressed to the point that people will make choices that could mean their certain deaths in order to get out of the dictatorship.

I never wanted to see this happening to the U.S. i took an oath to protect the Constitution and everything that this nation was founded for, and I don't take my oath lightly, and I see the same thing happening now to these United States of America as it has happened in many dictatorships.

If you don't believe that any nation, or any person should stand for any rights, for a Constitution that gives all it's people a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, alongside with every right which was given to us for all future generations of Americans, then you could be living in a dictatorship and it wouldn't matter to you right?

Sooner or later if you don't stand for anything, then you become nothing.

I sense in your response an apathy, a call for unresponsiveness no matter what, yet that in itself shows you have not grown enough to understand that until you stand for something that is greater than yourself, you will continue to be nothing more than a boy waiting to be told what to do, and without any regards to what happens to yourself or others.

No matter how big your body grows if there is nothing you stand for, then you are nothing but an empty shell.

I am not trying to insult you in any way, but if you think that people shouldn't have a say on what their government does, and people shouldn't stand for what is right, then you my friend are at a loss.

BTW, it is only the cornerstone of the foundations of the Pyramid of Gyza that have a ball and socket construction so the pyramid could sustain earthquakes and heat expansion, but most of the pyramid foundation is rigid.

In the same manner, there are some ways in which laws can be passed as long as they uphold the Constitution, The Bills of Rights and every facet which made this nation possible and which our forefathers gave for all future generations of this Great Republic.

If you live in the United States, then this is your Great Republic also.



[edit on 23-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

My response flowed not from apathy, but from strategy. Your fear-based reaction philosophy will bring about the very loss you hope to avert and when it does you’ll have no one to blame but yourself. Not to be offensive, but, as a general rule, I don’t take advice, especially with regards to matters of state, from people who moved to this country from oppressive dictatorships. It wouldn’t be sensible for me to listen to a person who abandoned and forsook their own home to live in mine. My story in this country involves the necessary experience to deal with any threat that may arise. As a newbie here you should follow my lead; otherwise things probably won’t turn out very well for you. Besides, as an American, I have a tradition of Triumph; whereas, you have a tradition of failure and retreat.

The United States is flexible and becomes whatever it must…as a matter of fact we have long operated within a framework and under leaders which history can show to have been Communist and/or Fascist (the last 90 years) yet people still arrived here in waves to call this free land home.

The idea that all republicanism or democratism can be snuffed out and replaced by any other system is a pipe dream, which is probably only possible when free people decide to commit suicide out of fear of losing something that is not losable.

If there is some wicked plot to enslave us all, I say let the plotters proceed unhindered. Enslave us…give us all you got…they will end up on the trash heap like everyone that came before them. We’ll take and keep notes on their words and actions and make defending ourselves against them in the future into a science.

Just curious…as an immigrant who has sacrificed so much to be here with me, a native, why exactly do you think you’re qualified to lecture me about my land, government and way of life? According to the propaganda, it is me, as an American, that is supposed to be in your country, sticking my nose in your business and telling you how to live, not the other way around.

[edit on 23-3-2009 by huckfinn]

I have lived in this Great Republic for over 20 years. I served in the U.S. Armed Forces, and more than met any expectation being required of a citizen, and nomatter what you try to claim, I am a citizen of this Republic.

Despite you trying to downplay me because I was born in another country, and because my family had to leave when I was just a boy because of political persecution, this only tells that you are not only trying to dismiss the message of people like me, but you are more than willing to repeat the same failing policies that have occurred in dozens of nations and which brought nothing more than missery and death.

You don't have to like it, I expect there will be people like you who would rather submit and do nothing, thinking that "things will get better".

From world experience rather than apathy to learn from the experiences the world has to teach, I can tell you that not standing for what is right is always wrong.

In this life you only live once, it is the choice of every person to stand for what is right, or submit, and maybe live a longer life, but one in misery, and oppression.


[edit on 23-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by cbianchi513
I laughed when I heard Obama talk about "A new Declaration of Independance". Any reader of the document can plainly see that it is a list of grievances directed at a tyranny, and a demand for redress.

Is Obama going to craft a new list of grievances?

Who will he send it to?

Exactly, when the present siting President calls for a New Declaration of Independence, when the one this nation was founded on protects all future geneations of The Republic from future tyranny, you have to ask yourself why.

Why is the present administration so encouraged to dismiss, and erase those documents which protect every citizen, and legal resident of this Great Republic?

Erasing the safeguards that protect us from tyranny, can only mean that the iron yoke of a repressive tyranny is about to be implemented.

Is this what the sons and daughters of this Great Republic want?



[edit on 23-3-2009 by ElectricUniverse]