No Gene for Alcoholics Measure Human Evolution

No Gene for Alcoholism, but a possible way to measure Human evolution.

This hypostasis of mine is 20 years old. I would like to explore it with you members as genetics and origins seem to be topics of interest.

My belief is that If you were to examine the genes of a society or culture that has weaned it self away from the use of alcohol---- say CHINA (less than 1 percent use) and compare them to a culture of say 80 percent users---- say Australian and North American aboriginals-----
You would be able to measure the difference genetically and establish a time line for that transition.

Here are some facts to get started.

If you look at the global percentages of consumption of alcohol. Then start in China and follow a spice trade like route east, you will find India Indians have a 25 percent rate, Asia Minor and the Mediterranean countries about 35 percent. Northern Europe and Africa clock in at about 55 percent.

The most interesting is pre European North America and Australia at an amazing 80 percent.

I compiled this data after having a very heated debate with NIH scientists . It was about the foolish breeding of Super Rats, the study of twins and convicts to find the DNA markers that prove their parent or parents caused them to become alcoholic by passing them a bad gene or predisposition for what they were now calling a disease.

When I had collected the factual data I looked at its linearity and surmised that there could be genetic reason for the east - west increase in consumption due to reproduction.

Every thing looked pretty good until I got to the Atlantic Ocean and became confused.
The science at the time was saying alcoholics inherited a predisposition from an alcoholic parent or parents much like cancer, which at the time had visible DNA markers. (only the cansers)
That could explain, that if the societal use of alcohol started in China and then copulated its way west with the spices over a period of time, you would find no barrier to stop its dissemination.

Stick with me here because I think this is the most important part.

I now had two interesting dilemmas.
1----How did this disease copulate its way across the Atlantic?
2----Why did the data percentages seem backwards?

There is no record of large scale use of alcohol in pre European N. America or Australia and no reports of massive inter-breeding to facilitate a grand scale genetic change in the aboriginal populations over night.
And why in the world would there be more drunks in those populations than in the once pie eyed Chinese.

( Absolutely no disrespect to any of the countries or cultures here.) Every culture and country in it's turn has had an identical scenario.

It occurred to me that the aboriginals didn't get the sex, just the hooch. And the booze got them drunk not thier folks.

After thinking about this for awhile, I figured the data wasn't backwards at all.

If the Chinese were first to use alcohol, using the left over rice from a newly contrived agriculture
(my calculated guess is 7 -8,000 years ago) and if they past that process west, the numbers from the data start to make sense.
This is ok but does a poor job of explaining why there is today more use in the west than there is in the east.
Aha! What if the Chinese became slowly immune to the poison by a evolutionary process. Selection of a mate, social awareness etc. Repeat this process west ward and the data are looking pretty good.

Ok then, HOW do you prove this!
And I am not saying I can.
If I had a bunch of sober Chinese DNA donors and some from pure blooded North America and Australia aboriginals and a test lab, that would be a start.

Way unlike the National Institute of Health's program.
Perhaps it has changed in the last 20 years but I doubt it.

Call me dense, but it is early in the morning could you explain in laymans terms exactly what you want to prove.

Are you attempting identify a genetic marker for alcoholism?

It seems a very interesting premise, one that you would think has been attempted in the past... or has it?

Good luck with your research, just don't expect me to donate some blood...

Mine is tainted from the binge last night

I just did a quick search and found this article which seems to mention some of the same factors that you were presenting:

Genetic Influences on Alcohol Drinking and Alcoholism

The quest for genes that influence alcohol abuse follows two paths. One goal is to locate genes that predispose a person to alcoholism. The other is to identify genes that help to prevent this from happening. Li and his coworkers have made important advances in this latter category. "We have identified two genes that protect against heavy drinking, and these are particularly prevalent among Asians," Li says. "We have shown that Native Americans, who have a high rate of alcoholism, do not have these protective genes. The one that is particularly effective is a mutation of the gene for the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase, which plays a major role in metabolizing alcohol. The mutation is found very frequently in Chinese and Japanese populations but is less common among other Asian groups, including Koreans, the Malayo-Polynesian group, and others native to the Pacific Rim. "We've also looked at Euro-Americans, Native Americans, and Eskimos, and they don't have that gene mutation," says Li. Thus, incidentally, the study of genetic mutations and alcoholism links native North-American populations to central Asian ancestors, not to those from China and Japan.

for more results use this link:

www.google.com...

Hope this helps in your quest for more info on the subject


ed: add links



[edit on 3/21/2009 by JacKatMtn]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
No Gene for Alcoholism, but a possible way to measure Human evolution.

(my calculated guess is 7 -8,000 years ago) and if they past that process west, the numbers from the data start to make sense.

Yes, actually between 7 and 10 thousand years for a specific gene against a disease (of any kind) to find it's way into the "mainstream" of the gene-pool, depending on the virulence (death rate and age of victims). It takes almost twice as long as that for it to become thorough throughout the "group".


For instance, it took ~20,000 years for the dark skin of European's African ancestors to evolve into the light skin required for us to absorb enough sunlight to sustain our Vitamin D production (to keep us from getting rickets in the winters), away from the dark skin that protects these people from the affects of UVB (cancer-causing) rays.

O-315

reply to post by Donny 4 million


But back in the olden days alchohal was in almost ALL water to kill bacteria. Not one person alive enjoys the squirts.

My great-grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandfather was an alcoholic. My dad was an alcoholic. My brother was an alcoholic.

My grandfather didn't know his dad. My father didn't know his dad. My brother was raised my our dad, and he is the only one of 5 that is an alcoholic.

Coincidentally, all of the above were smokers, and all five kids are smokers.

I think it's genetic.

Edited to add: Maybe there is a gene that predisposes people to addictions?

[edit on 21-3-2009 by virraszto]

Thats like saying developing an allergie to peanuts is proof of evolution. The further we get away from the way we were designed to live the more toxic our mind, soul and body become. There is no gene for alcoholism because it is a disease of the mind. And people predisposed have been shaped that way from life experiences. Your father cant pass the gene but he sure can pass the behavior.

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
Call me dense, but it is early in the morning

could you explain in laymans terms exactly what you want to prove.

OK Dense

Are you attempting identify a genetic marker for alcoholism?

My title for the thread says No Gene For Alcoholics.
Ah ha but it does say there should be one for non drinking Chinese. You see, before mankind started boozing why would he need a gene for it. After several thousand years of consumption he developed one or some.

It seems a very interesting premise, one that you would think has been attempted in the past... or has it?

Your external content says the marker has finally been found, in the Chinese. Neat that it took a guy named Li to find it and not a NIH, Smith or Jones.

That is the mutation that keeps them from consuming (ingesting). It should be developing in the India, Indian population then eventually in about 6,500 years from now in the N American and Australian aboriginals.
And then they will be unable to ingest also. That is if all the other societies follow Chinese development.
Can you date that source for me?

Good luck with your research,

You seem good at it as well. It's amazing what you can find and figure.

just don't expect me to donate some blood...

Then we will get it from your brother when he is asleep.

My research ended 20 years ago on this one when the NIH told me that since I didn't buy a University diploma I was disqualified to be heard.





[edit on 24-3-2009 by Donny 4 million]

reply to post by organism315


SWEET that's what I'm talking about!. There was nothing like this around 20 yrs ago that I could find.
Could you assign some date to your knowlege?
The out of Africa info also?
Thanks

reply to post by Wertdagf


I still put a little water in my Scotch.
You are correct. Alcohol was used for all kinds of health.

Originally posted by virraszto
My great-grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandfather was an alcoholic. My dad was an alcoholic. My brother was an alcoholic.

My grandfather didn't know his dad. My father didn't know his dad. My brother was raised my our dad, and he is the only one of 5 that is an alcoholic.

I think your family should participate in the study that JKATMT posted about!

A foot note---
A little known fact that helped me in my research.
Women during child bearing years are 90 percent less alcoholic than men.

I beleive smoking and drinking are compulsive adictive traits and possibly in the realm of JKATMT's external source information. The markers they found that inhib alcohol consumption were not assigned to a particular trait as I remember.

I think it's genetic.
Correct if the predisposition to alcoholism is HEALTH.

Edited to add: Maybe there is a gene that predisposes people to addictions?

I agree

[edit on 21-3-2009 by virraszto]

Originally posted by The Great Day
Thats like saying developing an allergie to peanuts is proof of evolution.

I only have a reaction when I eat them with Brandy.

The further we get away from the way we were designed to live the more toxic our mind, soul and body become.

I think so as well.

There is no gene for alcoholism

My contention exactly.

because it is a disease of the mind.

The mind is governed by a fine tuned mass of genes.

And people predisposed have been shaped that way from life experiences.

And genes, in my opinion.

Your father cant pass the gene but he sure can pass the behavior.

Both in my opinion.

[edit on 25-3-2009 by Donny 4 million]