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is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

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posted on May, 12 2009 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


Good way of disproveing the trinity. If Jesus didn't resurrect Himself, how can He be God? God resurrected Jesus.




posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:36 AM
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FALSE AUTHORITY: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the leaders of their Watchtower organization are appointed by God to act as His supreme representatives on earth. In order to maintain good standing with the organization, they are required to accept, without question, all beliefs and policies presented by their leaders. So, when the plain reading of a Scripture passage contracts a doctrinal belief held by their leaders, they will question their own ability to understand the meaning of that Scripture passage before they will question the belief itself. We must undercut their trust in their leaders before they will be free to accept the plain and simple interpretation of Scripture passages that differ from what they have been taught.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:37 AM
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The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible. Frequently investigation into the doctrine of the Trinity has been dismissed from serious discussion or study by invoking the time-worn assertions - "It's a great mystery" or "This is incomprehensible" - thus discouraging many from investigating the scriptural basis of the doctrine.

Due principally to this attitude as well as certain complex aspects of the Trinity doctrine itself, there has been a revival of anti-Trinitarian heresies during the past one hundred and fifty years, and they have gone largely unanswered. Prominent among those groups rejecting the historic doctrine of the Trinity are Mormonism, Christian Science, Unity, Spiritism, Herbert W. Armstrong and his Radio Church of God and Jehovah's Witnesses - i.e., The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

According the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Trinity is a Satanic dogma of apostate Christianity that prevents people from knowing the true God, Jehovah. The Watchtower puts it this way:

The doctrine in brief is that there are three gods in one: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost...the Holy Spirit is not a person and is therefore not one of the gods of the Trinity...the Trinity doctrine was not conceived by Jesus or the early Christians...the obvious conclusion therefore is that Satan is the originator of the Trinity doctrine. 1

Since the Watchtower denies that the Trinity doctrine is Biblical; and since they complicate the issue by defining it incorrectly - the task of true Christians is two fold: First, a definition in accord with historic Christianity must be given. Secondly, it must be shown that the doctrine of the Trinity is both Biblical and essential to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

THE HOLY TRINITY

Definition: Within the unity of the One God there are three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and these three share the same Nature and attributes. In effect, the three Persons ARE the one God.

From this concise statement, similarly set forth in many theological texts,2 it is clear that the Christian Church does not believe that "there are three gods in One." Quite to the contrary, we affirm that there is but one God, as Scripture repeatedly asserts (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 43:10, 1 Tim 2:5).

Having defined the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it becomes necessary, secondly, to demonstrate inductively from the Bible that it is true.

To accomplish this, we begin with one basic premise: If it can be shown from Scripture that there are three persons, all of whom are called Jehovah (God), then, since there is only one Jehovah (Isa. 44:6, 48:12), those three Persons are the one God. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.

Just how it is possible for three to be One and for that One to be three, will also be explained. But first, the evidence:

1. THE FATHER IS JEHOVAH

Jehovah's Witnesses are quick to agree with the Apostle Peter that the Father is called Jehovah. Moreover, Peter and many other Biblical writers identify Him as a "person" (2 Peter 1:17). It is therefore unnecessary to press this point, the Witnesses having already conceded it.

However, we would point out that the word "person" is, by definition, descriptive of "ego" or "I." Without "ego," which distinguishes man from the beast, personality as such would cease to exist. Any reputable lexicon of Greek dictionary will substantiate the fact that the Greek word "ego," is the basis for our English term, "I." Jehovah designates His Being as The Great I AM (Ex. 3:14): So the Deity is Personal and possesses Ego, the hallmark of Personality.

We see, then, that one of the three "Persons" - the Father - is designated "God."

2. THE SON IS JEHOVAH

A careful study of the first chapter of Revelation (vs. 11-18) will show that Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, identifies Himself as "the first and the last" and "the one who became dead" and who now lives for all eternity.

It is of no small significance that in verse 13 of the last chapter of Revelation, He confirms this title with great emphasis, identifying Himself in verse 16 as "I Jesus," and declaring that He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." The context reveals that it is Jesus speaking (vs. 12), for He - not the Father - is coming "quickly" (Rev. 1:7; 1 Thess. 4:15,16).

It must never be forgotten that these titles ("the first and the last," "the Alpha and the Omega'" "the beginning and the end") belong only to Jehovah God (Isa. 44:6,8; Rev. 1:8, 21:6). But Jesus Christ claims them as His own, because He, the Son is also Jehovah!

We see, then, that there are either two firsts and two lasts (a hopeless contradiction of terms), or the Son is Jehovah, the one who was pierced for our sins (Zech. 12:10; Rev. 1:7,11,13) and who is truly "the fullness of Jehovah in flesh" (Col. 2:9).

The angel who showed John the wonder Revelation forbade the Apostle to worship him, for he was but a created being, a "fellow servant." Quite properly, he declared, "worship Jehovah," (Rev. 22:9). Yet Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah's Witnesses say is also a created being (i.e., Michael the Archangel), commended the worship of Himself as Jehovah (John 20:28,29). This would have been a blasphemous act of presumption on His part and a direct violation of His Father's commandments (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 6:17), unless He were in some mysterious sense on in Nature and Being with His Father. In such a case He would in truth be "equal with God" and entitled to receive worship as Jehovah(John 5:18,23).

Jehovah's Witnesses have always taught that Jesus Christ was no more than a perfect man, "certainly not the supreme God Almighty in the flesh."3 They state categorically that He was in no sense both God and man. "Some insist that Jesus while on earth was both God and man. This theory is wrong."4 Jehovah's Witnesses also maintain that our Lord was "the first and direct creation of Jehovah God," and that prior to His earthly life He was an angle.5

In contrast to this teaching, Scripture and the Christian Church declare the full Deity of Jesus Christ, and His equality with God the Father.

In the first verse of John's Gospel, Christ is revealed as the eternal Word of God who became flesh (verse 14) - the "image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4). Consider the emphasis "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God" John 1:1).




posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:38 AM
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Note that John 1:1 states that the Word already was in the beginning - it does not say the Word "became" or "was created" by God, as Jehovah's Witnesses teach. The Witness incorrectly translate this text to read "the Word was a god,"6 but their translation is by both context and grammar an impossibility according to all recognized authorities on Greek. No recognized translation bears out their error.

Moreover, the Scriptures proclaim that Christ made "himself equal with God" (John 5:18), and that "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Deity bodily" (Colossians 2:9). The Bible further states that Christ claimed to be the great I AM (Jehovah) of the Old Testament (cf. Exodus 3:13-16 with John 8:58), and the Jews understood Him so clearly during His ministry that they sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy (John 8:59; cf. 10:28-33).

Jehovah's Witnesses pervert these texts and many others in their determined effort to demote our Lord from His position of God and Creator (Colossians 1; Hebrews 1); and they compound their error by translating the Greek of the New Testament, in many places, contrary to all grammatical authorities. It is certainly true that during His earthly life our Lord voluntarily limited Himself as a man (Philippians 2:6-8), and thus He never strove to usurp the prerogatives of Deity; But one does not have to "rob" what is His by inheritance (Hebrews 1). He was true Deity - "the great God" (Titus 2:13).

We must not forget that Christ humbled Himself, even to the death of the cross, and therefore, as a man, could say, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). However, let us remember that Christ never said, "My Father is better than I." "Better" is a term of comparison between natures (Heb 1:4), while "greater," as in the context of John 14, is a term of comparison relative to positions.

The President of the United States, for instance, is greater in position than any of his fellow-Americans by virtue of his office, but he would be the first to insist that he is not better than other human beings. So Christ was admittedly inferior to His Father positionally while on earth as a man, but the Scriptures clearly and unmistakably state that he was at all times His Father's equal on the spiritual plane of Divine Being or Nature (Heb. 1:3; John 5:18). Note also that in 1 Corinthians 15:28 it is function that is dealt with - not Deity.

Jehovah's Witnesses always point to Christ's humanity in the Bible; they carefully omit mention of His claim to full Deity, and they thus "wrest...the...scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). the second Person, the Son, is also called God, then, despite the efforts of the Watchtower to prove the contrary.

3. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JEHOVAH

It is peculiar, to say the least, that Jehovah's Witnesses can agree with the Apostle Peter when he declared that the Father is Jehovah - and then contradict his affirmation that the Holy Spirit is likewise Jehovah, as recorded in Acts 5:3 and 4.

No Christian theologian has ever denied either the Person or Deity of the Holy Spirit, for the evidence to substantiate both is abundant in Scripture. For instance, a thorough study of the book of Acts, chapter thirteen, reveals that the Holy Spirit is a Person, because He possesses "ego." Luke records therin that the Holy Spirit as a Person has "ego" (13:2,4) and, furthermore, that He (not "it") prophesies to His servants and commissions them, as well (21:11). See also such verses as John 14:26, 15:26, Acts 8:29, 13:2, and Romans 5:5.

The Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit has a "will" (1 Cor. 12:11; Heb. 2:4), and since "will" denotes "ego" or personality, as opposed to the neuter (animals), obviously the Spirit is a person. We have also seen from Peter's words that when Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, he lied to Jehovah (Acts 5:4). Both the thirteenth chapter of Acts and Isaiah 48 add to the proof that the Holy Spirit is God, since He answers the prayers of the Apostles (Acts 13:1-4) and is designated Deity by the prophet Isaiah (48:16). Even the Watchtower admits that God alone answers prayer.

The Bible, then, does indeed teach that the Spirit is a Person and that He is called God. It is therefore apparent that there are three Persons mentioned in Scripture and that they are all identified as God: Yet there is only one true God (Isa. 45:22).

"LORDS MANY AND GODS MANY"

There are two other important points that must be mentioned.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that, because the Bible designates some beings and idols as "gods," it is proper for them to call Jesus "a god" and worship him as the angels did (Heb. 1:6). This is an important point and must be clarified.

Of course, it is true that God made Moses appear as a god in Pharoah's eyes (Exodus 7:1). Moreover, Satan, certain of the judges of Israel and pagan idols are described as "gods" in the Bible (John 14:30, Psalms 82:6, 1 Cor. 8:4, 10:19, 2 Cor. 4:4). Nevertheless, they are not deity by nature, as the Apostle Paul flatly states (Gal. 4:8). They are "gods" by angelic or human acclamation, and God addresses them in that context. Worshiping a thing can make it your god; but it is not God by nature - for by nature there is only one God (1 Cor. 8:4-6, 1 Tim. 2:5).

When this cardinal distinction is made in Scripture, the Watchtower's doctrine is refuted, and the problem of the usage of the term "gods" or "a god" disappears.

COMPOSITE UNITY AND THE TRIPLE POINT

The second important fact to be remembered is that of the meaning of the term "one."

"How is it possible," say the Jehovah's witnesses, "for Jehovah to be three and one both at the same time? It is illogical, unreasonable and confusing; and God is not the author of confusion!"

To answer this all-too-common objection, it should be kept in mind that the word "one" can denote composite as well as solitary unity. For instance, in Genesis (chapter 2), Adam and Eve are called one flesh; and Numbers (chapter 13) speaks of "one" when the context indicates that is was in reality a cluster of grapes hanging from one stem. Here are bona fide instances of composite unity.

The same Hebrew word, "echod" (one) is used in both cases, however, even as it is in Deuteronomy 6:4 where we are told that God is "One." The evident composite unity indicated here is confirmed in the New Testament. Our Lord spoke of composite unity where marriage is concerned (Mk. 10:8); so He, too, was aware of this important distinction. See also Joshua 9:2; Judges 20:1; 2 Chron. 30:12; Isaiah 65:25; Nehemiah 7:66 and Ezra 6:20 for further instances of composite unity.

Finally, let us illustrate how it is both logically and rationally possible for three to be one and one to be three simultaneously, since Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT believe this is possible.

It is a well-known fact of chemistry that plain water, when placed in a vacuum under 230 millimeters of gas pressure and at a temperature of 0 degrees Centigrade, solidifies into ice at the bottom of the container, remains liquid in the center and vaporizes at the top! At a given instant the same water is both solid, liquid and gas, yet all three are manifestations of the same basic substance or nature: H2O - hydrogen: two parts; oxygen: one.

If one of the simplest of all created substances can be three in manifested form and yet remain one in nature, then the Creator of that substance can surely be Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three Persons and one Nature - without any violation of logic or reason whatever if He so wills.

God is not triples (1+1+1) - He is triune (1x1x1), and He has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9; John 14:9).

Jehovah's Witnesses are not confused by the doctrine of the Trinity they are confused by the Watchtower Society, from whose power only the Son of God can liberate. It is our prayer that, in His own time, this will come to pass - "for ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...and if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:32,36).

Once the foregoing data have been understood, the following texts from the Old and New Testament confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. A prayerful reading of these passages will help strenghten your faith in this great and truly divine revelation of the Nature of God. It will promote faith in Him "who is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him by faith," since He alone is "the Way," (Heb. 7:25; John 14:6; Acts 16:31; 1 John 2:2; Romans 10:9-13).





1. Let God Be True, Watchtower Society, Edition 1946, pp. 81, 82, 87, Reconciliation J.W. Rutherford, p. 115. 2. The Trinity, Baker's Dictionary of Theology, p 115. 3. Let God Be True, p. 87 4. The Truth Shall Make You Free, Watchtower Society, p. 49, The Harp of God, J.W. Rutherford, pp. 101, 128. 5. The Kingdom Is At Hand, pp. 46, 47-49. 6. Let God Be True, pp. 34, 35.



TRINITY TEXTS: (1) Old Testament Hints - Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:12, Zech. 12:9,10. (2) The Creation - Genesis 1:2, In 1:3. (3) The Incarnation - Lk. 1:35. (4) The Baptism of Christ - Matt. 3:17,17. (5) The Resurrection of Christ - Acts 2:26, 1 Thess. 1:10 (The Father), Jn 2:19-21, (The Son), Rom. 8:11, 1 Pet 3:18 (The Holy Spirit), Acts 17:31 (God). (6) The Great Commission - Matt. 28:19. (7) The Divine Benediction - 2 Cor. 13:14. See also John 14:16,26, 15:26.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 04:31 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 

FALSE AUTHORITY:
OK, what is the authority of whoever wrote the little blurb that you posted?
I do not think it is too cool to double post that article on the trinity. Actually should not have posted it at all but just linked to it.
You should have at least written a paragraph about it to show that you actually understood something about what you were posting.
What you are doing could easily be classified as SPAM.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I would have posted just a link but was afraid no one would look at it. Its the same in 2 threads cause both threads are talking about the same thing.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by dthwraith
FALSE AUTHORITY: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the leaders of their Watchtower organization are appointed by God to act as His supreme representatives on earth. In order to maintain good standing with the organization, they are required to accept, without question, all beliefs and policies presented by their leaders. So, when the plain reading of a Scripture passage contracts a doctrinal belief held by their leaders, they will question their own ability to understand the meaning of that Scripture passage before they will question the belief itself. We must undercut their trust in their leaders before they will be free to accept the plain and simple interpretation of Scripture passages that differ from what they have been taught.


a shining example of irrationality.

so let me see if i get your reasoning, because JW's seem to be on the frontline of this Jesus is son of god vs. jesus is part of a trinity debate, you feel that their involvement somehow affects the validity of information presented?

so if information comes from an unpopular source, then the information HAS to be false?

what does the JW organization have to do with the trinity?

what does JW internal policy have to do with the trinity?

nothing.

try to use the bible to prove the trinity but you cant, so then try to discredit the advocates of the opposing side of the debate.

im sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense to me



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 04:31 PM
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Definition: ......In effect, the three Persons ARE the one God.

....it is clear that the Christian Church does not believe that "there are three gods in One."


what?

do trinitarians actually read the garbage they write?


It must never be forgotten that these titles ("the first and the last," "the Alpha and the Omega'" "the beginning and the end") belong only to Jehovah God (Isa. 44:6,8; Rev. 1:8, 21:6). But Jesus Christ claims them as His own, because He, the Son is also Jehovah!


further examination of rev 1:8 and and verses 11-18 show that jesus is not referred to as the alpha and omega.

1:8 specifically mentions "almighty"

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

this statement implies that before Jehovah, there was no other "almighty" and after there will be no other "almighty".

all other passages where we find alpha and omega, it is clearly refering to the one on the "throne" or Jehovah. not jesus.

however rev 1:11 in the king james version clearly also refers to jesus as the alpha and omega. but there is a problem. if you check the greek alpha and omega, the first and last was clearly added. greek manuscripts dont have it. period.

the verse is more properly translated in other bibles as "saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.""

wow, totally different isnt it?


Yet Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah's Witnesses say is also a created being (i.e., Michael the Archangel), commended the worship of Himself as Jehovah (John 20:28,29). This would have been a blasphemous act of presumption on His part and a direct violation of His Father's commandments (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 6:17), unless He were in some mysterious sense on in Nature and Being with His Father.


john 20:28,29 says nothing of worship. timothy simply calls jesus "my god". you website asserts that that because of this, jesus is god. the problem with this assertion is that it is based on the belief that only Jehovah is called "god". but there are plenty of scriptures that prove otherwise. god is a title. it mean "mighty one"

humans are called gods.
satan is called a god.
wooden idols are called gods.
so is jesus.

jesus being a god doesnt not automatically make jesus Jehovah


Note that John 1:1 states that the Word already was in the beginning - it does not say the Word "became" or "was created" by God, as Jehovah's Witnesses teach.


rev 3:[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

col 1:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

so if jesus was created first, and then him and his father decided to create everything else, then yes he would be with his father "in the beginning"


The Witness incorrectly translate this text to read "the Word was a god," but their translation is by both context and grammar an impossibility according to all recognized authorities on Greek.


this statement is a bold faced lie.


Moreover, the Scriptures proclaim that Christ made "himself equal with God" (John 5:18)


lol. jesus never broke the sabbath. if he did, then it cant be said that he fulfilled the law. it cant be said that he didnt sin. its clear that this scripture is listing allegations, not what jesus was actually doing.

jesus himself comfirms this.

john 14:[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


and that "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Deity bodily" (Colossians 2:9)


actually its not "deity", its "θεότητος - divinly" as in divine qualities.


The Bible further states that Christ claimed to be the great I AM (Jehovah) of the Old Testament (cf. Exodus 3:13-16 with John 8:58),


yes, connecting the dots with the most used phrase in all languages, I AM. except there is nothing in the verse to suggest he was quoting exodus. and if you translate it literally, its actually "before abraham, I have been


and the Jews understood Him so clearly during His ministry that they sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy (John 8:59; cf. 10:28-33).


if the idea of the messiah being god conflicted so much with OT belief, that they were willing to kill him, what does that say about the trinity? doesnt it show that its incompatible with scripture?

besides the fact that jesus himself cleared up what he was saying in later verses clearly showing us that he was not claiming to be god.


Jehovah's Witnesses pervert these texts and many others in their determined effort to demote our Lord from His position of God and Creator (Colossians 1; Hebrews 1); and they compound their error by translating the Greek of the New Testament, in many places, contrary to all grammatical authorities.


i dont need a JW bible to disprove the trinity. that should say mountains about this statement.


It is certainly true that during His earthly life our Lord voluntarily limited Himself as a man (Philippians 2:6-8), and thus He never strove to usurp the prerogatives of Deity; But one does not have to "rob" what is His by inheritance


the single worst translation of any bible passage

phil 2:6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ,

"who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped," - american standard


We must not forget that Christ humbled Himself, even to the death of the cross, and therefore, as a man, could say, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). However, let us remember that Christ never said, "My Father is better than I." "Better" is a term of comparison between natures (Heb 1:4), while "greater," as in the context of John 14, is a term of comparison relative to positions.


what? that is the most retarded explanation of that passage that i have ever heard.

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im posting the holy spirit part later when my migraine goes away.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:30 AM
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No Christian theologian has ever denied either the Person or Deity of the Holy Spirit, for the evidence to substantiate both is abundant in Scripture. For instance, a thorough study of the book of Acts, chapter thirteen, reveals that the Holy Spirit is a Person, because He possesses "ego."


article by the watchtower and tract society that sums this subject up better than i ever can


The Holy Spirit—Third Person of Trinity or God’s Active Force?

“You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.”—Acts 1:8, NW.

The scene is Jerusalem. The time late in May of the year (A.D.) 33. In obedience to the law of Moses more than a million Jews are crowding the city where Jehovah put his name to celebrate the feast of Pentecost. In one of the upper rooms of the city we see the eleven apostles gathered, together with 109 other disciples of Jesus, including his mother and his fleshly half brothers.

2 Then, “suddenly,” as Luke describes it, “there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible and were distributed to them, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”—Acts 2:2-4, NW.

3 With but very few exceptions the creeds of Christendom state that God’s holy spirit is the third person of a trinity, coequal, coeternal and cosubstantial with the Father and the Son. Bible dictionaries and religious encyclopedias go to great lengths to prove not only that the holy spirit is a person but that it is a divine person. An exception is the Unitarian creed, which holds the holy spirit to be merely “the influence of the Deity on the minds of his servants, . . . dwelling in the hearts of believers, as the source of their spiritual life.”—Dictionary of Religious Knowledge, Abbott.

4 While the consensus of the religious teaching of Christendom today may ascribe divinity to God’s holy spirit, such was not always the case. Note, for example, the words of Neander, of whom McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia states: “Universally conceded to be by far the greatest of ecclesiastical historians.” Though himself a trinitarian, he wrote: “In A.D. 380, great indistinctness prevailed among the different parties respecting this dogma so that a contemporary could say, ‘Some of our theologians regard the holy spirit simply as a mode of divine operation; others as a creature of God; others as God himself; others again, say that they know not which of the opinions to accept from their reverence for Holy Writ, which says nothing upon the subject.’”

5 Is God’s Word ambiguous on the subject of the holy spirit? Does it fail to indicate clearly whether God’s holy spirit is God himself, a creature of God or a mode of divine operation?



SPIRIT PERSONS

6 To understand what the Bible has to say about God’s holy spirit we must first note the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words translated “spirit,” namely, the Hebrew word ru′ahh and the Greek word pneu′ma. Both of these words have the meaning of “breath,” “blast” or “wind,” and are translated in various ways. The English word “pneumatic” comes from this Greek word pneu′ma, a pneumatic tire being a tire full of wind. While the term “Holy Ghost” occurs some ninety times in the King James and Douay versions, it is actually an Old English term, “ghost” being derived from the German word geist, meaning “spirit.” That is why the expression “Holy Ghost” does not appear in modern translations.

7 The term “spirit” is used in seven different ways in the Bible, and is applied both to persons and to impersonal things. Obviously, a failure to distinguish between these seven senses of “spirit” would result in confusion on the subject. To ascertain the truth we must therefore heed Paul’s admonition: “Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.”—2 Tim. 2:15, NW.

8 Why did Bible writers use the words ru′ahh and pneu′ma in seven different senses and apply them both to persons and to that which is without personality? Because all these senses have in common the two basic characteristics of wind, namely, invisibility and force. Note, for example, the sails of a boat driven by the wind. We cannot see the wind, yet the fact that the sails are bowed and the boat is being driven over the water shows a force at work. Thus we note a visible effect produced by an invisible force. Stressing these characteristics of “spirit” are the prophet’s words: “The Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses are flesh, and not spirit.”—Isa. 31:3, RS.

9 Logically, the term “spirit” applies first of all to Jehovah God, for he is both invisible, no man ever having seen him, and mighty—almighty, in fact. (Ex. 6:3; 33:20) Yes, as Jesus said, “God is a Spirit”; and as Paul wrote, “Now Jehovah is the spirit.”—John 4:24; 2 Cor. 3:17, NW.

10 The Scriptures also speak of Jesus Christ as a spirit. “The first man Adam became a living soul,” quotes Paul, contrasting him with the last Adam, Jesus, who “became a life-giving spirit” upon his resurrection, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” And since he now dwells in “unapproachable light,” and is also known as “The mighty God,” the term “spirit” is also fittingly applied to him.—1 Cor. 15:45; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1 Tim. 6:16, NW; Isa. 9:6.

11 Angels, both good and bad, are also termed “spirits.” Thus at Hebrews 1:7, 14 (NW) Paul states that God “makes his angels spirits,” and that angels are “all spirits for public service.” These good angels are both invisible and powerful, as the Bible repeatedly shows. (2 Ki. 6:16, 17; Isa. 37:36) Wicked angels are also referred to as spirits, Jesus often expelling these spirits “with a word,” from persons possessed by them. And Paul speaks of Satan as “the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” (Matt. 8:16; Eph. 2:2, NW) That these wicked spirits are also very powerful is apparent from Daniel 10:13, 20, where we are told that one of them was able to restrain one of God’s invisible messengers for twenty-one days.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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“SPIRIT” USED IMPERSONALLY

12 One of the uses of “spirit” for that which is without personality is for the spirit or life force God put in man after forming him out of the dust of the ground, thereby causing man to live. Regarding this life force, we read at Genesis 7:22 (Ro) that “all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life” died on account of the Flood. Or, “everything in which the breath of the force of life was active . . . died.” (NW) And the apostle John tells of seeing a vision in which certain witnesses had “the spirit of life” enter them, causing them to stand on their feet after they had been dead for three and a half days. (Rev. 11:11, NW) At death “the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit [ru′ahh, not neph′esh or soul] returns to God who gave it.” (Eccl. 12:7, RS) This life force certainly is invisible and powerful, and is therefore fittingly termed “spirit.” Scientists are trying very hard to discover this life force or “life principle,” but Jehovah in his wisdom has seen fit to keep this secret to himself.—Ps. 36:9.

13 Another use of the term “spirit,” ru′ahh, pneu′ma, in the Scriptures for that which is without personality is its application to mental disposition. Thus we read: “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.” And: “He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.” (Prov. 16:18, 32, RS) The mental disposition itself cannot be seen, but it has force that manifests itself in actions that are visible, as when one loses self-control and becomes red in the face and trembles with rage. Jesus used “spirit” in this sense when he counseled: “Keep on the watch and praying, that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is willing, but the flesh is weak.” One’s mental disposition is therefore also fittingly termed “spirit.”—Matt. 26:41, NW.

14 Another sense in which the term “spirit” is applied to impersonal things is to “inspired utterances.” A prophecy inspired by God is an inspired utterance or expression, and so the prophecy when quoted is properly referred to as the “spirit” talking. Thus Paul says that “the inspired utterance [spirit: footnote] says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith.”—1 Tim. 4:1, NW.

15 The Devil and his agents also inspire utterances, although such are not prophetic. Thus a line of Communist propaganda issued as news is modernly termed an “inspired statement.” Satan’s present worldwide propaganda campaign against Jehovah’s kingdom is pictured as “three unclean inspired expressions,” or “unclean spirits,” resembling frogs, that are gathering all nations to Armageddon. (Rev. 16:13, 14, 16, NW) The apostle John warns Christians to be on guard against being deceived by the wrong kind of inspired expressions: “Do not believe every inspired expression [spirit], but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” The very fact that John here associates “spirit” with false prophets shows that it refers to what these prophets say and not to spirit creatures. As humans we cannot make trial of spirit creatures, but we can try the expressions inspired by spirits to see whether they are true or not. Since such ideas are in themselves invisible and also can exert a powerful force upon men’s minds, they are properly termed “spirits.”—1 John 4:1, NW; AT.

16 The seventh and remaining sense of the term “spirit” is its use as “holy spirit,” which trinitarian translators usually render with capital letters and precede with the definite article the, as “The Holy Spirit.” According to the Athanasian Creed, the earliest creed to explicitly teach the trinity as it is understood today, therefore the one most relied upon by trinitarians, the “Holy Spirit,” or the “Holy Ghost,” is a member of the trinity, uncreated, almighty, incomprehensible, a Person, a Lord and a God, “the glory equal, the majesty coeternal” with God the Father. A clergyman may deny the inspiration of the Bible, that Jesus’ blood cleanses us from our sins, that Jesus performed miracles and was raised from the dead, and still be considered a good Christian; but let him deny the trinity and he would at once be branded as a heretic. Says the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia regarding this teaching: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion.



HOLY SPIRIT NEITHER A PERSON NOR A GOD

17 If the holy spirit is equal with Jehovah God, as claimed by the Athanasian Creed, and if the trinity is the central teaching of the Christian religion, as claimed by The Catholic Encyclopedia, should we not expect these things to be plainly stated in so many words in the Bible? And should this not especially be the case in view of the fact that it is stated that the trinity teaching is “of all revealed truths” “the most impenetrable to reason,” and yet salvation depends upon its acceptance? The fact that the Word of God does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.

18 Yes, how could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given such a secondary position in the Scriptures? Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. Why not, if the holy spirit is equal to the Father and the Son in glory, power, etc.? The creed may state that unless we believe that the holy spirit is equal to God we shall perish, but Jesus, in giving us the rule for life, does not even mention the holy spirit: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3, NW.

19 Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water. To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person? Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person? Besides, Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41, NW.

20 That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name. God, the Creator, has many distinctive appellations. His name is Jehovah, and he only is “The God,” or “The [true] God,” he only is the “Most High” and the “Almighty.” He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”

21 But not so with the holy spirit. Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”? If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy? And more than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19, NW.

22 And note still another point, that of location. The Bible tells us that God dwells in heaven, that he holds court there. Also that Jesus in his prehuman existence was rejoicing in his Father’s presence, that he came to earth to perform special missions, especially at the time he came as a man, and that he has now returned to heaven. Where was or where is the holy spirit now if it is a person? Did “he” come down upon Jesus at Jordan and then remain, or return and then come again at Pentecost? Is “he” now in heaven with God and Christ, or is “he” scattered throughout the earth wherever Christ’s followers are to be found?

23 The fact is that the truth about the holy spirit has been beclouded by the prejudices of Bible translators. Their use of capital letters cannot be used to prove the holy spirit is a person. Why not? Because at the time the Scriptures were written proper and common nouns were not thus distinguished from each other. The same is true regarding their adding the definite article the before holy spirit in some hundred instances where the Bible writers had not done so. To omit the definite article seemed disrespectful to such Bible translators but not to the Bible writers. Thus Paul wrote that God’s kingdom meant “peace and joy with holy spirit,” not “with the holy spirit.” And Peter wrote that God’s servants spoke, being “borne along by holy spirit,” not “by the holy spirit.”—Rom. 14:17; 2 Pet. 1:21, NW.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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THE HOLY SPIRIT—GOD’S ACTIVE FORCE

24 Since God’s holy spirit is not a God, not a member of a trinity, not coequal, and is not even a person, is it “the influence of the Deity on the minds of his servants,” as claimed by some? While the holy spirit is used by God to influence the minds of his servants, its operation takes in far more than just that. It is God’s active force, not Jehovah’s power residing within himself, but his energy when projected out from himself for the accomplishing of his purposes. This is what certain early “church fathers” chose to call “a mode of divine operation.” Being invisible and powerful it can properly be termed ru′ahh, pneu′ma or spirit. However, it is not a blind, uncontrolled force, such as the forces of “nature,” lightning, hurricanes and the like, but as God’s holy spirit it is at all times under his control, accomplishing his holy purposes, and therefore may be likened to a radar beam.

25 Thus it was by means of his holy spirit or active force that God created all things, doing so, of course, as John 1:3 shows, through his Son. As Elihu said: “The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” (Job 33:4; see also Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30.) This active force came upon the faithful men of old, such as Gideon, Jephthah and Samson, empowering them to gain notable victories. Jesus testified that it was “by means of God’s spirit” that he performed miracles. And the apostle Paul showed that it was the holy spirit that enabled the Christians back there to do the various signs and works. Included, therefore, is the writing of the Scriptures. Said David: “The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me.” And Peter: “For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.”—Matt. 12:28; 2 Sam. 23:2; 2 Pet. 1:21, NW.

26 The Scriptures further show that it is by means of his holy spirit or active force that God brings forth his spiritual sons, the first of whom is Jesus Christ. At the time of his baptism God’s holy spirit came upon Jesus in the form of a dove, after which God acknowledged him as his spiritual Son. (Matt. 3:16, 17) And so Paul says regarding Christ’s footstep followers: “For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.” And that “the [holy] spirit itself bears witness with our spirit [mental disposition] that we are God’s children.”—Rom. 8:14, 16, NW.

27 By means of this holy spirit these spiritual sons of God are anointed, appointed or commissioned by Jehovah to preach. And so Jesus, at the beginning of his ministry, read from Isaiah 61:1, 2, and applied it to himself: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” This anointing by God’s spirit commissioning them to preach came upon Christ’s followers at Pentecost in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, even as Peter showed: “‘And in the last days,’ God says, ‘I shall pour some of my spirit out upon every kind of flesh, . . . and they will prophesy.’”—Luke 4:18; Acts 2:16-18, NW.

28 God’s holy spirit also serves to enlighten his servants and help them to understand his Word. In fact, it cannot be understood without the help of God’s holy spirit. That is why the scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees and lawyers, though very familiar with the Scriptures, did not understand them. Yes, as the apostle Paul shows: “‘Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him.’ For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit.”—1 Cor. 2:9, 10, NW.



CONSIDERING OBJECTIONS

29 But perhaps at this point a firm believer in the trinity will object, asking: ‘Does not the Bible in various ways indicate that God’s holy spirit is a person? And did not the early church fathers believe the holy spirit to be a divine person?’ Since Jesus warned of a falling away and Paul and others told of an apostasy already at work in their day, it follows that the early “church fathers” could have been mistaken. However, personality was not always ascribed to God’s holy spirit. Justin Martyr believed that “the holy spirit was an influence or mode of operation of the Deity.” Hippolytus, who according to The Catholic Encyclopedia was the “most important theologian and the most prolific religious writer of the Roman Church in the pre-Constantinian era,” in his writings “decidedly ascribes no personality to the Holy Spirit.” And as we have already noted (paragraph 4), there was decided difference of opinion as to the nature of the holy spirit in the fourth century. That is why we read that “though Basil of Caesarea [late fourth-century theologian] wished to teach the divinity of the holy spirit in his church, he only ventured to introduce it gradually,” because of the strong opposition to this novel teaching.—History of Christian Dogma, Neander.

30 So early church history cannot be used to prove the trinitarian view of the holy spirit. And neither can the fact that at times the personal pronoun is used in connection with the holy spirit prove the holy spirit is a divine person or even a creature. For example: Jesus said he would send his apostles the Comforter, Helper or Paraclete, the “spirit of the truth.” Since the Greek word par·a′cle·tos is in the masculine gender, it was logical for Jesus also to use personal pronouns when referring to the holy spirit in this capacity or activity. This promised Helper came at Pentecost.—John 15:26, NW.

31 But, on the other hand, we find Jesus repeatedly using impersonal pronouns when referring to God’s holy spirit, a most disrespectful thing to do if the holy spirit were the third person of a trinity, coequal and cosubstantial with Jehovah God himself. “The spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.” (John 14:17, NW; Ro; AT; ED) True, some translations use the personal pronouns here, but since the original Greek has impersonal pronouns, such translators must have allowed their religious prejudices to influence their translations. For a similar instance note Romans 8:26, where the holy spirit is referred to by the pronoun “himself” in some translations (RS, Dy), and by “itself” in others (NW, AV, AT, Ro, ED).

32 In view of the fact that we find the nation of Israel and God’s universal organization and the Christian congregation repeatedly referred to in the Scriptures under the symbol of a woman, it should not surprise us that at times the part played by the holy spirit is personalized. But if the holy spirit were the third person of the trinity, equal to God and Christ in glory and honor as claimed by the creeds, could we imagine the Scriptures referring to the holy spirit as “it”?

33 However, someone may ask, How can an impersonal spirit be spoken of as speaking, teaching, forbidding and ordaining? And what about God and the holy spirit being used interchangeably, as when we read that God said a certain thing and then again that it was said by the holy spirit? Besides, do we not read that Ananias lied to God and then again that he lied to the holy spirit? Does this not further prove that God and the holy spirit are one, members of a trinity?



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:32 AM
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ILLUSTRATING HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT OPERATES

34 In considering the foregoing question, doubtless the use of illustrations will be helpful, even as the greatest Teacher that ever lived, Jesus, found to be the case. The holy spirit has been likened to wind. In certain respects it can also be likened to electricity. It also serves for illumination, as a means of communication, and represents a powerful force that can accomplish great things. We cannot tell whether a person is filled with the holy spirit merely by looking at him, even as we cannot tell whether a battery or a “third rail” is charged with electricity merely by looking at it. And even as electricity is used by certain governments to execute criminals, so Jehovah has at times used his holy spirit to execute the wicked, as in the case of Ananias and his wife Sapphira.—Acts 5:1-11.

35 And to use another illustration: Today policemen and soldiers keep in touch with their superiors by means of radio. Their officers send messages that instruct, command, forbid, as the case may be, by which the men in the field or on duty are maneuvered. It might be said that the radio did all this in that it was the agency used. So likewise Jehovah God, by means of his holy spirit, both through his Word and in addition thereto, speaks to, instructs and directs his servants. Thus we read: “These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we combine spiritual matters with spiritual words.”—1 Cor. 2:13, NW.

36 The same holds true regarding the holy spirit’s ordaining or making appointments of overseers in the Christian congregation. It does so by means of human instrumentalities. Thus we not only read of Paul saying “the holy spirit has appointed you overseers,” but also that Paul left Titus in Crete ‘to correct matters and to make appointments.’ In that Titus and others made such appointments by reason of the wisdom and authority given them by God’s holy spirit, it can be said that such appointments were made by the holy spirit.—Acts 20:28; Titus 1:5, NW.

37 Then again, God’s imparting knowledge of his will to his servants by means of his holy spirit in times past may be likened to a newscast over the radio regarding a statement made by the chief of state. It would be correct to say that the radio said it, that a certain news commentator said it or that the chief of state said it. Such expressions are common and no confusion results. But because God’s Word at one place states that God said a certain thing and in another place that the holy spirit said it is taken by trinitarians to argue that God and the holy spirit are members of a trinity or one God. Such a strained inference merely points up the weakness of the trinitarian position. The Bible’s testimony is simple and plain, not mysterious. It shows that God spoke the words in the first place and that his faithful servants on earth received them by means of the holy spirit.—2 Pet. 1:21, NW.

38 The same reasoning can be applied to Peter’s words to Ananias. In that Peter was enlightened by the holy spirit, Ananias in lying to Peter was lying to the holy spirit; and in that Peter represented God and spoke for Him, Ananias in lying to Peter was also lying to God.—Acts 5:1-11, NW.

For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God.—2 Cor. 10:5, NW.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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Jehovah's Witnesses claim that, because the Bible designates some beings and idols as "gods," it is proper for them to call Jesus "a god" and worship him as the angels did (Heb. 1:6). This is an important point and must be clarified.

Of course, it is true that God made Moses appear as a god in Pharoah's eyes (Exodus 7:1). Moreover, Satan, certain of the judges of Israel and pagan idols are described as "gods" in the Bible (John 14:30, Psalms 82:6, 1 Cor. 8:4, 10:19, 2 Cor. 4:4). Nevertheless, they are not deity by nature, as the Apostle Paul flatly states (Gal. 4:8). They are "gods" by angelic or human acclamation, and God addresses them in that context. Worshiping a thing can make it your god; but it is not God by nature - for by nature there is only one God (1 Cor. 8:4-6, 1 Tim. 2:5).

When this cardinal distinction is made in Scripture, the Watchtower's doctrine is refuted, and the problem of the usage of the term "gods" or "a god" disappears.


this entire argument is based on the assumption that jesus' title of "god" is somehow different from other titles. but unless you mention scripture to back that claim, its nothing but a claim.


"How is it possible," say the Jehovah's witnesses, "for Jehovah to be three and one both at the same time? It is illogical, unreasonable and confusing; and God is not the author of confusion!"

To answer this all-too-common objection, it should be kept in mind that the word "one" can denote composite as well as solitary unity. For instance, in Genesis (chapter 2), Adam and Eve are called one flesh; and Numbers (chapter 13) speaks of "one" when the context indicates that is was in reality a cluster of grapes hanging from one stem. Here are bona fide instances of composite unity.

The same Hebrew word, "echod" (one) is used in both cases, however, even as it is in Deuteronomy 6:4 where we are told that God is "One." The evident composite unity indicated here is confirmed in the New Testament. Our Lord spoke of composite unity where marriage is concerned (Mk. 10:8); so He, too, was aware of this important distinction. See also Joshua 9:2; Judges 20:1; 2 Chron. 30:12; Isaiah 65:25; Nehemiah 7:66 and Ezra 6:20 for further instances of composite unity.


what this article has discovered is a phenomenon in language called "Polysemous words". they are words that have more than one meaning or application.

so they realize that the word "echad" can mean "one" as in unified. but "echad" can also mean "1"

gen 2:[21] And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

in this passage "echad" literally means "1"

so the article asserts that deut 6:4 means "composite unity" (which it can) and not "1". but AGAIN, it fails to PROVE that assertion. they simply assume


It is a well-known fact of chemistry that plain water, when placed in a vacuum under 230 millimeters of gas pressure and at a temperature of 0 degrees Centigrade, solidifies into ice at the bottom of the container, remains liquid in the center and vaporizes at the top! At a given instant the same water is both solid, liquid and gas, yet all three are manifestations of the same basic substance or nature: H2O - hydrogen: two parts; oxygen: one.

If one of the simplest of all created substances can be three in manifested form and yet remain one in nature, then the Creator of that substance can surely be Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three Persons and one Nature - without any violation of logic or reason whatever if He so wills.


common trinitarian illustration.

my rebuttal - have you ever seen water that was gas, liquid and solid at the same time?

matt 3:16,17


God is not triples (1+1+1) - He is triune (1x1x1),


a fallacy of logic.

triune would be 3 components that equal 1.

the bible clearly depicts god, jesus, and the holy spirit as more than just components but as whole themselves.

this statement is an attempt to weasel out of the logical paradox that 3 in 1 creates.


and He has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9; John 14:9).


2 cor 4:[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

look at my avatar, you dont see me, you see my image.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by miriam0566]



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 


Look, if you are going to be my friend on ATS, you have to accept the fact that with your list of Unitarian believers, I fall under the Herbert W. Armstrong sect of them. JWs, though not completely correct in their doctrine, have a heads up on a traditional christian. You have weak arguments for the trinity. I was just reading through the Gospel according to John and noticed a recurring theme in the book. Jesus constantly referred to the Father as being the one who sent Him. Jesus definitely didn't send Himself into the world. He was sent by God the Father. He was constantly praying to God the Father while on this earth. And yet there are verses stating that Jesus and God are one. This is only possible through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a being, but an essence or power. When you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, you have the power of God on your side. If I were to posess the Holy Spirit, I would be one with God. The day of Atonement is all about posessing oneness with God through the Holy Spirit.

On a personal note, I can't stand it when someone dismisses doctrine or in this case, threads just because they see stuff like "watchtower association" or "Radio Church of God (Worldwide Church of God)" writings in them. If a true christian were to read and biblically research the teachings of Armstrong, or even Roderick Meredith they would understand that God's plan for mankind is not to go up to heaven and pluck harps all day. John 3:13 states "No man has gone up to heaven except He who came from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." How many modern catholic or protestant preachers teach this? Hell is a mistranslation in the bible and all of us go there. Do some research and you'll see what I'm talking about. Easter Sunday isn't the day Jesus resurrected from the grave if you use the Good Friday-Easter Sunday chronology. Not to mention, the scripture plainly states that Jesus was cruicified on Passover and resurrected 3 days and 3 nights later in the middle of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the Weekly Sabbath..... not sunday morning. All of these things are things modern traditional churches overlook or turn a blind eye to but according to God's word, avoiding such things can be a grave mistake and must not be taken lightly. Open your mind and at least discuss these topics instead of touting about how we're wrong and you're right.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 





they would understand that God's plan for mankind is not to go up to heaven and pluck harps all day.



LOL, if people really still think that, it just shows how clueless they really are, when it comes to what the bible teaches on this subject.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 


When I was a kid, my stepmother kept trying to get me to go to her born again church...I got freaked out when I did go, once, under compulsion; people started waiving their hands in the air and screaming or mumbling undistinguishably (uh, speaking in toungues in history actually meant speaking other languages, not giberish) during the discorse
...but the point, your trinity post...the quote you paste as your viewpoint? about water's three states...uh, its still water.
My stepmom made me read this book about how an apple has three parts, the core, skin and pulp. Ya know, as in The Father Son and Holy Spirit were similar as they were seperate aspects of the same object. uh, its still an apple.
At 10 years old that was plain to see, if you took its skin away it turned brown...when Jesus came to the Earth, did God turn brown?
The thoughts of a 10 year old. With the forms of water and science...ah never mind I just wanted to post here with all the other cool kids in the class!



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom
 

Someone in my Sabbath school class last week started saying something and as soon as I herd the word "ice", I stopped him and told him to save it because it is just ridiculous.
You can not use material analogies to describe God. The Bible does not go into a detailed analysis to explain the trinity. The closest to doing that says something like, "There is God and there is The Lord" It does not draw a comparison between the two, other than to say that they are both good and we are not, besides what we can gain through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
If salvation was through correct theology, Jesus need not have died on the cross. But we should, for the sake of people around us who may rely on us for help understanding things, be able to spot an obvious lie, meant to lead us into false theology. There are gods, more or less, who would love to divert the attention of Christians away from the true God, and toward themselves. This is an ongoing battle throughout history and we are not immune to it.


[edit on 16-5-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 01:57 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


So you believe Jesus is not God? I understand God not being a person because He's an indescribable entity, but the existence of God is there. My question to you is, do you think God and Jesus are the same thing? Yes or no? You're just a confusing person sometimes and you draw out your answers as if you were trying to speak to me in parables. That trick only works when Jesus does it.



posted on May, 19 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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The concept of the Holy Trinity goes back way before Christianity.

It is basically the Hegellian dialectic: The Father and The Son are two seperate people. The "Holy Spirit" is the relationship between them, personified.



posted on May, 20 2009 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


That is an alternate form of the Trinity. The Trinity as said by the Catholic Church (who brought it to christianity) say that God is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Basically 3 aspects of the same God. What you just said, God and Jesus being separate but shareing the Holy Spirit isn't even a trinity aspect. The first century church shared the Holy Spirit with God so you would have to call it the Infinity instead of the Trinity if you really want to get technical.



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