is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

reply to post by ahnggk

The fact that you made this post (unless you live in the UK and the Library is open) means someone made enough money to buy a computer and is regularly making money to maintain an internet connection.
I tryed all that sort of thing, back when I was younger. What I realized is that no matter what you do, you are dependent, one way or another on someone who is making money.
What I decided to do, eventually, is to be one of those people who can, to those who are less dedicated to making money, be expected to allow a certain degree of dependency on.
Jesus associated with certain wealthy women and was sustained by them at different times. Having any money involves responsibility as to how to make use of it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
3 Jesus was born and before that, there was no such person.
Apparently number three is very unpopular on this thread, so I feel I need to go into some in-depth explanation to make it seem in the least bit a reasonable option. Listing a bunch of verses does not seem especially persuasive.

john 4:[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

do you really believe that GOD seeks people who scoff at what the bible says?

i know leaving bible verses out makes the message more "palatable", but really it not about converting the stubborn.

remember the locusts in revelation. they continually "sting". to those who cannot accept what the bible plainly says, scriptures "sting" them. so of course they dont want to use it.

for example, is it any wonder why badmedia needs to discredit paul to make his point?

Do you think Jesus quoted exactly, word for word, straight out of the officially sanctioned version?

there are many examples and times that he did.

if the son of god, who was able to openly and freely converse with his father, quoted from scripture, why wouldnt we?

reply to post by miriam0566

do you really believe that GOD seeks people who scoff at what the bible says?

I am not advocating throwing away your Bibles. I read it all the time. The thing is, if you look at it closely, you find there is a lot of liberty taken by translators on what they want it to mean. I think it is a good idea to make some determination about it for yourselves.
From my experience, some of the most dogmatic positions on theology are based on misapplied or mistranslated verses.
As for Jesus or the writers of the New Testament, they had to create whole new ways to understand what the Old Testament was saying. Look at the story of the road to Emaus, where even after his death and resurrection, Jesus had to go over all the verses that spoke about what had happened to him. It was not because they had never read them before but that they had been kind of locked into a conventional way of understanding them.

Look how Bibleforums wants to contain and shutdown this topic, it's pathetic

In there general posting rules

IV. Specific Rules

Unorthodox teachings or discussing specific doctrines of ANY of these....in the interest of seeking factual representation and refuting any doctrinal differences from mainstream Protestantism:

6. ONENESS (DENIAL OF THE TRINITY/DEITY of Christ)

This is not just for posting messages on the open board. If you use the various systems on the message board to promote these doctrines (such as Private Messaging or Rep system etc.) then we will take appropriate action.

Can you believe this. I was thinking of signing up over there, but with that type of attitude what's the point.

Once again ATS rules the internet for free and open discussions that are virtually unrestricted. Best forums on the Net.

Edit
I found out they have one area where you can go to discuss it but look at the restrictions to post, it's the most laughable thing I have seen on a message board.

Controversial Issues, World Religions, The Arena, Dreams Visisions and Prophecies To gain access to the above mentioned forums, you must

1) Have at least 40 posts, be here for at least 30 days, and have a positive reputation.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


it's worse than that, actually. They will tell you not to even start a thread where people can debate the topic. There is a problem with that site because it has some people with troll like leanings and get into annoying bickering. Even when you try to be very reasonable, someone (rabid dogmatists) will go off and they shut down the thread. I have had to tell some posters that people on atheist sites were better behaved.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by ahnggk

 

The fact that you made this post (unless you live in the UK and the Library is open) means someone made enough money to buy a computer and is regularly making money to maintain an internet connection.

I've once lived alone without earning any money in a sparsely populated island, living off coconut and spring water in a simple shed I made myself out of coconut leaves. I did it as part of my quest for truth and left the city.

But I was overcome by my love for close relatives so I have to go back. They don't understand what I'm trying to do. I'm still planning to continue this quest, perhaps in another place once i could convince them better.

Now if you ask me if prefer, living off the money I make and spending them in all the pleasures offered by this society in the middle of the city. Vs making zero money and appreciating God and nature.

I would choose the latter(even if the insects are extremely annoying) I never had my soul calmed until I left this worldly abode and that allowed me to see people in a different light and help them better.

reply to post by ahnggk

I never had my soul calmed until I left this worldly abode and that allowed me to see people in a different light and help them better.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d743d8b4b9c5.jpg[/atsimg]
Here is the spot I used to think was the ideal refuge. I calculated this was as far from any human habitation you could find, in the part of the world where I lived. There were wood rats and rattlesnakes and one BigFoot. That kind of ruined it for me. Apparently someone else had the same idea as I had. Anyway, at a point, you have to give it up and join the rest of the world. You might have to force yourself to believe that whatever enlightenment you were going to get from living wild, is as much as you are ever going to get and you have to move on and put that new insight into use.

how did "trinity" turn into "outdoor life"?

Originally posted by miriam0566
how did "trinity" turn into "outdoor life"?

It goes back to the story Jesus told where the king is tax-exempt and by implication, so is his son.
Being tax-exempt by not being part of the system was not the point he was making. In this regard, asking, "What would Jesus do?" does not apply because he had a unique position.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


And he can't be represented as both the King and the Prince at the same time. Jesus was tax exempt as you say but he showed a good example by paying it anyways.
God's things to God, Caesar things to Caesar.

Luke 20 verses 21-25 (New Living Translation)
“Teacher,” they said, “we know that you speak and teach what is right and are not influenced by what others think. You teach the way of God truthfully. 22 Now tell us—is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
23 He saw through their trickery and said, 24 “Show me a Roman coin. Whose picture and title are stamped on it?”
“Caesar’s,” they replied.
25 “Well then,” he said, “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.”

And this is why tax evasion is wrong for Christians, but fighting in the military is just as wrong, being prepared to throw your God given life away for imperialistic powers. Our lives belong to God, not any nations army.

As a side note you know that any religion that encouraged it's members to fight and kill each other and they are suppose to be of the same faith serving the same God are false.
Think how many religions that takes out of the running, as being the true path to serving God with accurate knowledge of truth?

But I digress, again was he talking about himself here? "and give to God what belongs to God."

No

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I use to get angry at people who said serving the military was against God's will but after finding my faith, I understand. I spent 4 years in the Navy and was in the opening portion of the Iraq War. We partook in the "Shock and Awe" portion on the USS Abraham Lincoln. Since leaving the Navy and meeting my friend, John from my current Job, my eyes have been opened. John showed me the corruption of our government and how it's headed for a one world government or NWO. I used this information to research bible prophecy because I knew there were similarities to these conspiracy theories and end-time prophecies. In doing this research I found the United Church of God and the Living Church of God which are both former branches of the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. After reading the fundamental beliefs of the UCG and their stance on war and military service, I understood why it's wrong. Iraq is a war started for the wrong reasons. You can't free a nation that never asked to be saved in the first place. I know God commanded wars in the OT.... most famously the wars that took place in the book of Joshua while the Israelites entered the land of Canaan. War for the right reasons is fine but the wars we fight in the US have no reasons short of expanding our borders or adding to the countries that are at our mercy and jurisdiction. War = death. Death from war = murder. Murder = breaking of God's commandments. Oh, and just so we're on topic, Jesus and God are two separate beings. The Holy Spirit is not a being, but a presence or power belonging to God. I'll keep saying it till my eyes bleed.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I signed up for the bibleforums thing and posted a thread about heaven and hell. It's the same one I posted here on ATS/BTS titled, Heaven and Hell: The Biblical Truth. After posting it, I got a message from the moderators similar to the snippet you posted saying they don't accept doctrine from Jehova witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and other doctrine that isn't "mainstream christian." Needless to say, I wrote back to the moderator that sent me the message stateing that christians will never grow out of the box they're in without stimulation of their spiritual understanding and that people takeing the word of a priest or preacher over what the bible really says is damaging to the eternal well-being of christians. It was much stronger in wording of course but still christian. I am anti-bibleforum. JMDewey is the one who actually got me to visit the sight and sign up when he told me to join on my profile page.

[edit on 5/8/2009 by Locoman8]

reply to post by Locoman8


It's really sad when a bible forum refuses to discuss the bible, the very scriptures they say they believe. They are behaving like the 14th century church, no heretical talk is aloud, shut right down.

You can't even discuss the Trinity it's off limits. That is censorship at it's worst.

I think they shut it down because they were getting owned on the subject, from the bible. That's what some people do if they can't win, the refuse to engage in the conversation.

They are cowards who lack courage and are cowardly submissive to their clergy and chruches, not the bible. As the scripture below will show, those that persist in this, will pay for this.


Revelation 21 verse 8 (Amplified bible)

8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.


That is one of the most powerful scriptures in the bible, that speaks to the necessity of the real truth being needed. And the real truth about the Trinity is embedded with the context of this.

So it is scary to get it wrong.

I spit on the Council of Nicea.
Pathetic cowards who groveled at the feet of the Pagan Emperor.
Nothing but the precursor to, or the actual embodiment of the Beast.
Most churches subscribe to the Nicene Creed without any sort of critical analysis of it. They will burn in Hell.

reply to post by jmdewey60


"they will burn in Hell".

That's a strong statement. I believe those who are misled by this false church, are not destined for the "Lake of Fire" which is what you call, "hell." In Revelation 20 talking about the White Throne Judgement, it states that "books were opened along with the Book of Life and everyone was judged by their works in those books." The word "books" in this verse is the greek word "biblia" which means "scripture." During the Judgement, those who are resurrected in the 2nd resurrection will be taught the truth about God and scripture. Those refusing to accept with their own eyes, the truth will be cast into the lake of fire and die their second death. All will have the opportunity to be part of God's kingdom, even if they were not chosen as saints of the first resurrection.

reply to post by Locoman8

What I mean is the leaders, who should know better. I do not mean every single person who belongs to a "mainstream" church.
The pastors and teachers have to know better, and teach abomination, anyway. If what you say about the judgment is true, it would not apply to the ones I am talking about because they already know the truth but choose to follow Satan, who is behind the pagan gods.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Thank you for clearing that up for me. I will agree with you on that note. I feel that to be a leader in one of God's churches, you have to truly know your stuff. Christ is the example for all leaders of His church. Instead of leading with authority and demand, lead by serving. The thing I can't stand about a mainstream preacher is that he or she will be preaching on one single little verse in the bible and twist it to mean what they want it to mean. A teacher of the Word should be teaching every aspect of the Holy Scripture. I don't like it when a leader of a church preaches strictly on the New Testament when the Old Testament is just as or even more important for fully understanding God's will. These people will have to answer for their leading as wolves and devouring the sheep of God's church.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I know exactly what you are saying

Jesus condemned the Jewish clergy class to Gehenna, right to there faces.

Yet, he told the man that died with him he would be in paradise. He was a gross sinner too.

Individual members embedded within a false belief structure get more slack in judgment than the leaders do, Jesus proved that when he was on earth.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


A good example of that is the theif on the cross saying "remember me when you enter your kingdom." Jesus replied to the theif, "I say to you this day, you will live with me in paradise." I moved the comma to the appropriate place, which is in a place that makes the statement non-judgemental. Did you ever notice the placement of the comma in scripture? Most believers of an instantanious rise to heaven upon death use this passage to sell their idea. What they don't understand is that the greek and hebrew languages had no punctuation marks. Look at the placements:

I say to you, today you will live with me in paradise.

vs.

I say to you today, you will live with me in paradise.

Do you see how the placement of the comma changes the entire context if you're not careful? One way says "I say to you that on this very day that I talk to you, you will enter paradise." The other way says, "I say to you right now that you will eventually live with me in paradise." The latter being the more appropriate context. I know this is a bit off-subject but I thought it was interesting.

reply to post by Locoman8


Once again, I agree with you 100%, good job.

And the NWT gets it right too.

Luke 23
43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

The fact is nobody went to heaven that day, not even Jesus, because he was dead. So how could he be in heaven with him that day, simple logic.
But God was still in heaven, waiting to resurrect his son, once again disproving the Trinity.