Ancient America Rocked!

Originally posted by SLAYER69

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That is an incredible statue.

The rain god Tláloc , if i`m not mistaken .

A quirky story surrounding it .........

Even in modern times, Tlaloc seems to retain his power.

This was evident when a 168-ton basalt statue of the deity was transported from a remote Mexican village to the nearby National Museum of Anthropology in 1964. Villagers initially protested having the statue moved, fearing that it would precipitate a drought.

Thousands of people assembled to watch as the huge stone image was hauled away on a specially-built trailer. It was the dry season in the Valley of Mexico, yet suddenly the rain began to pour. Another downpour occurred as Tlaloc was installed in the museum garden.

source

reply to post by UmbraSumus



I'm an old school PC gamer It reminded me of a Mechwarrior

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reply to post by coredrill


Here is another video I posted in the new video/media deal we now have going enjoy.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Again I'm all for Traders traveling the globe in antiquity but so far nothing concrete has popped up. Although there are a few odd things such as this from South America. Which to many look very aboriginal

But (to be picky) only if you haven't studied any rock art. The sample you showed us shows three distinct styles (done by three different groups of people at three different times, including some fairly recent (past 500 years) art.

This illustrates a problem with armchair researchers (whom many people rely on in their postings) -- they have no knowledge of the cultures or the art styles or the lifestyles. They show us one piece of art from the culture and say "this looks like..." That's kind of like looking at "small-body" (chibi) anime characters and saying "they look like Mickey Mouse, therefore the Japanese got their art knowledge from Walt Disney."

reply to post by Byrd


Thanks Bird I hope I did not give the impression that I was trying to imply that they are all from the same period or that they are absolute proof of such a connection.

Pedra Furada (Brazil)
Contested Late Pleistocene Site

Pedra Furada's Controversy The original excavators (led by Fabio Parenti) reported two phases, one with several stacked layers dated between 48,000 and 14,300 years before the present (BP), and one dated later than 10,400 BP. Some scholars believe that dates before 10,400 may represent natural fire events, and that 'flaked pebbles' are 'geofacts', essentially quartz pebbles that dropped into the cave over time. Parenti and colleagues argue that the stacked C14 dates represent deliberate hearths, and that deliberate flaking of the pebbles is in evidence.

[edit on 20-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Here is an interesting video
This is 1 in a series of 5 this talks about the history of the Clovis and possible it's origins.



[edit on 21-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

I thought I throw this into the mix. Check out the link provided. I'll post more information as more becomes available.
Thanks.


The Oldest American?

Until recently archaeologists thought they had the answers to these questions. Evidence suggested that the Americas had been colonised towards the end of the Pleistocene period by hunter-gatherers migrating from Siberia into Alaska across the Bering Land Bridge, an exposed continental shelf, when sea levels were lower. This is known as the Clovis-First Model.


According to this model the earliest occupation of the Americas began 11,500 years ago.

The discovery of fossilised human footprints in the Valsequillo Basin, Central Mexico challenges this accepted viewpoint and provides new evidence that humans settled in the Americas as early as 40,000 years ago.

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Voyage to the American Stonehenge
In the magnificently stark landscape of the Bolivian highlands lies Tiwanaku, a two thousand-year-old city that was home to one of the most ...all » In the magnificently stark landscape of the Bolivian highlands lies Tiwanaku, a two thousand-year-old city that was home to one of the most influential civilizations in pre-Inca South America.

Scattered throughout this remarkable metropolis are huge temples, pyramids, and delicately carved monoliths constructed from colossal slabs of stone. But Tiwanaku’s beauty comes with an equally beguiling mystery. The nearest quarry that could have produced the city’s rocks lies some 40 kilometers on the other side of Lake Titicaca. This programme chronicles University of Pennsylvania researcher, Alexei Vranich's expedition to prove his theory of how the American Stonehenge was created. www.tvfinternational.com...

Google Video Link

Great stuff again. I am going back to the old books I read 30 years ago that got me hyped on the prehistory.

My favorite you guys might grok is "The lost World of Quintana Roo" by Michael Piessel 1963. Book Link He walked the whole peninsula of the Yucatan and found massive numbers of cites and stone structures covered in the jungles. They would clear an area and within a week it was again covered in the rapidly growing jungles. Now there are satellite imaging that has found vastly spread out structures and cities in jungles so dense you could not even stand, let alone excavate from the green walls of forest.

Maya tunnels found where all over, and I really got interested when I found out about how extensive they where.

I'm a science illustrator, so get to do some cool books sometimes so I read the transcripts and bring the writing to image.

Boogley talked about Caucasians in north America when the Spaniards came. I've done some reading and work on some books citing this too.

The last couple years I did some covers for a guy who was studying the archeological record of northern European people migrating over toward the end of the last ice age, coming in around Hudson bay. Below are two covers I did based on the fictional story that illustrated the events. Yes, evidence suggests this happened just like the migrations from Asia on the western Alaskan and northern passage.

Frozen Trail to Merica

This book solves not only the mysterious disappearance of Norse from the Western Settlement of Greenland in the 1300s, but also deciphers Delaware (Lenape) Indian history found to have been written in Old Norse. The fictional plot is based on Chapter 3 of Walam Olum, a manuscript of pictograms and verses first published in 1836 and based on engravings on bark given in payment for treatment to a Dr. Ward of Indiana by an old Leni Lenape Indian.

My Cover

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And from the second book...

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When I read these books I really thought how obvious this would be. Not just Asian migrations that might have become the Northern Coastal tribes, but eastern migrations too.

It is controversial as you might find. Many think it is myth or distortions. Here is the Cliff Notes on the theory.

Walam Olum

Still quite interesting.

Oh While I'm at it, here is an illustration I did a couple decades ago of one of the the Atlanteans at the Temple of Quetzalcoatl. Juz 4 fun

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Thanks again for a great discussion
At this rate I will get nothing done!

ZG

Originally posted by SLAYER69
While researching for another thread of mine Olmec Giant Stone Heads Mystery Solved? I ended up with more questions than answers...I always shutter when I see old movies or read old books that make statements that Native Americans were uncivilized.

I have enjoyed reading the work you have done here and I share some of the same feelings that you do about how these people are regarded as uncivilized or ignorant. I believe finding more questions then answers is a good indication that you are on the right track because there is a lot we don't know and a long way to go yet.

I feel shame for what has happened in the Americas and often wonder how many see, as I do, the hypocrisy in labeling people as barbaric heathens in an attempt to justify mass murder and the total destruction of cultures thousands of years old. Adding insult to injury the Native American myths were regarded as heresy and the missionaries went to great lengths to destroy as much as possible. Religious dogma was forced upon the native people and if any remaining myth appears to correlate with biblical text it is then dismissed as the influence from the missionaries. Even today these myths are regarded as nothing more then ignorant superstition.

I have a problem with the accepting of preconceived opinions about ancient people because this limits any potential discoveries. Speculations that are made about their origin (land bridge migration for example), culture or whether or not they were in contact with the rest of the world make any evidence that contradicts this a controversy and therefore easier to dismiss. If no reliable evidence exists of their origin or proving any global communication/influence then evidence found either way should be objectively reviewed but prejudice is still obscuring the scientific field of view.

Clovis Event

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence showing a recent catastrophic event that dramatically effected the global climate ending the Pleistocene epoch which is an important aspect in understanding the culture of these ancient civilizations. Evidence supports a sudden global climate change, known as the Younger Dryas event, around 12,900 years ago which might be the cause for the extinction of several animals species and ending many human civilizations including the Clovis people of North America.


Exactly how this all happen is in debate but the evidence does indicate a comet or some celestial object was involved and has been named The Clovis Comet. The material evidence that has been found from a number of sites across North America indicate destruction from a 'Heavenly Fire' by evidence of a 'Black Mat' layer. High heat and pressure, from an impact for example, produce Fullerenes (carbon/iron nanospheres and nanodiamonds) which have been found in abundance at these sites in the same layer of the younger dryas black.

Originally posted by Devino
Adding insult to injury the Native American myths were regarded as heresy and the missionaries went to great lengths to destroy as much as possible. Religious dogma was forced upon the native people and if any remaining myth appears to correlate with biblical text it is then dismissed as the influence from the missionaries.

It's the natural historical evolution of cultures. The empire/country in power wants to impose its beliefs on weaker cultures (by its standards).
Not to go off topic but see how Islam and its tradition/culture is being satanized by some people who want to impose their own Christianized beliefs and change their rituals and traditions.
Same thing. I don't think that it was neither good nor bad, it just was. Normal cultural evolution stuff.

[edit on 3/22/2009 by haika]

Originally posted by mpriebe81
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Agreed, and thanks again for the links!
I just wish that archaelogists had access to the possible cave system in the Grand Canyon....really bugs me that it's all just blocked off and restricted

[edit on 19-3-2009 by mpriebe81]

There isn't a "cave system" and they're currently doing a lot of archaeological digs there. They've had an unexpected find of a kiva, plus evidence of a very long agricultural history:
indiancountrynews.net...

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Pedra Furada's Controversy The original excavators (led by Fabio Parenti) reported two phases, one with several stacked layers dated between 48,000 and 14,300 years before the present (BP), and one dated later than 10,400 BP. Some scholars believe that dates before 10,400 may represent natural fire events, and that 'flaked pebbles' are 'geofacts', essentially quartz pebbles that dropped into the cave over time. Parenti and colleagues argue that the stacked C14 dates represent deliberate hearths, and that deliberate flaking of the pebbles is in evidence.

I've actually seen images of some of those and am not really convinced that the "flaked pebbles" have actually been flaked by humans... rather, they're geoartifacts. Although I do believe humans have been in the Americas for over 30,000 years, I don't find that particular set of stone tools to be very convincing. The rocks aren't that well adapted for use.

I don't know how thoroughly the edges have been examined for wear.

Originally posted by haika
It's the natural historical evolution of cultures....
I don't think that it was neither good nor bad, it just was. Normal cultural evolution stuff.

I agree with you that historically the conquerors impose their beliefs on those they have conquered. I don't see this as a natural process because it limits cultural diversity and growth and in the case of the Aztecs and the Natives of North America it was very destructive culturally and has hurt us all IMO.

This is not limited to the historical events in the Americas but continues today, as you pointed out, between the religious empires competing for power, again this is very destructive for all of us. Whether this is good or bad is a personal perspective so I agree that "it just was/is". However, I pray this is not a natural part of human culture for reasons that would go way off topic.

reply to post by ZeroGhost


That is awesome thanks for the link. I'll check it out

Originally posted by Devino

Clovis Event

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence showing a recent catastrophic event that dramatically effected the global climate ending the Pleistocene epoch which is an important aspect in understanding the culture of these ancient civilizations. Evidence supports a sudden global climate change, known as the Younger Dryas event, around 12,900 years ago which might be the cause for the extinction of several animals species and ending many human civilizations including the Clovis people of North America.

I think the main issue some are having with this approach is that they may be looking for one massive punch that pretty much wiped everything out in a day or two not realizing that a mass extinction on a geological time scale say 1 to 5 years is a blink of an eye.

Or that killing one crucial portion of a habitat is enough to send the rest into a tailspin and again within a very short geological time frame mass extinction. It would take several thousand years to recover.

Originally posted by haika

Originally posted by Devino
the missionaries went to great lengths to destroy as much as possible. Religious dogma was forced upon the native people

It's the natural historical evolution of cultures.

The one that gets my blood going is when they destroyed all the Aztec books
Who knows what History, Myths, and every day events were simply wiped out because of religion

I'm pretty sure there was a lot more than their religious views written down.


Aztec Books, Documents, and Writing

The administration of Tenochtitl�n and its foreign provinces required a great deal of paperwork. Taxes had to be collected, lawsuits between villages or private individuals had all to be recorded, and the merchants kept accounts of their goods and profits. Instructions and reports passed to and fro between the capital and the outlying cities, and like any civilized people of today the Mexicans were familiar with both red tape and official correspondence.

The clans maintained land registers, and when Cort�s reached Tenochtitl�n he had no trouble in procuring from the royal archive a map showing all the rivers and bays along a 400-mile stretch of the north coast. In addition each temple owned a library of religious and astrological works, while a large private household, like that of Moctezuma, employed a full-time steward to look after the accounts which were so many that they filled an entire house.

[edit on 22-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


My point was more about the number of different sites across America, evidence is even found from a site in France, and the different fields of science presenting corroborating evidence for some kind of Clovis event. There are some problems with the theory being presented like it being a single event that instantaneously kills everything, as you pointed out, and inconsistencies with some of the radiocarbon dates.

Evidence indicates that a celestial object was involved but I don't think it was a single event nor the result of an impact. The different radiocarbon dates could be the result of extinctions over time, reoccurring catastrophes in localized areas. Or errors with some of the radiocarbon date calibrations and in particular at significant plateaus such as the one from 11,000 to 10,000 BP which could be the result from a global climate change caused by the event in question.

There is a lot of information about this event and I am sure much more is yet to come. I often wonder about the people that might have survived these events and how it is reflected in their culture and myths. Of course this comes back to the problems created by the iconoclastic missionaries.

reply to post by Devino



yes i agree,

evidence from widespread places and across differing fields of work are pointing to such an event or events.

This is a thirfty little articlewww.sciencedaily.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.sciencedaily.com... about diamonds, gold and silver found in indiana and ohio came from the diamond fields of northern canada.
and another good one about the carbon mat and exotic gasses in fullerenes , He3, contained in said carbon layer.
www.eurekalert.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.eurekalert.org...

more

www.freerepublic.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.freerepublic.com...

I used to have a link to a site by some astrophysics proffessor who thought he had identified the swarm of objects that caused this event and several others in the past. They are somerthing like a 7-8k year cycle.