Thoughts on anti-psychotics

I've heard that nicotine is a stimulant, so it raises dopamine levels in the brain.

Lowering dopamine through the medications is likely to make the reward centres of the brain light up and demand more dopamine. Something which cigarettes can do.

Originally posted by randomnumbergenerator
Still defending the medicos?

Are you talking to me.LOL. Defending, No. Denying Ignorance.
Get rid of the medicos, go on. See how long you last. Why is it that all the amazing stuff the Medico's of society do is never referenced as a point of balance to some of the imperfection that is inherent in all aspects of social systems in our world.

Neurotoxic in the sense that it rewires the brain, pathways are altered, brain structure is changed et cetera. If this wasn't true, different neuroleptics would not be required.

So you are redifining neurotoxins? Anti-psychotic drugs do not "re-wire" anything. They block the stimulation of certain receptors responsible for symptoms specific to psychosis. They alter the chemical interactions, not the structure. That is all. As with any drug there is an effect of tolerance. It is not an effect of rewiring, its the same with ALL neurotoxins. Tolerance to the effect will be experienced no matter what the purpose of the nurotoxin, be it a recreational drug or an antipsychotic medication. Acquired tolerance in Schizophrenics to neuroleptics is an ongoing battle, sadly there is no magic response to how the human body reaches tolerance, in some cases rapid tolerance with progressions in medication is experienced, sadly this is a fact of life with dealing with schizophrenia. The other option of course is not to medicate schizophrenics. The side effects of neuroleptics is often sited by patients as being worse, but given the highly individualised nature of schizophrenia and psychoses related, those external to the sufferer have no way of measure this other than to compare the psychotic state with that of a medicated schizophrenic individual who is able to communicate that their neuroleptics have negetive side effects.

How do you suggest we as a society deal with individuals of this nature.

It happens to too many people, who are not drug or even alcohol users, for it to be sheer coincidence. I mean, multiple people reporting a worsening of psychiatric symptoms once they are on the medication?

Please, provide the facts that lead you to believe this.

These medications are bad.

Is this a personal response or one as a health care proffesional. I saw some amazing results from the administration of these medicatiions through my experience as a nurse. I now engage many of my cities mentally ill and homeless population in my city, in fact I am organising a trip for a group of them over easter and can tell you they wouldn't function without these meds. But hey, what would I know. It must be all the mind control going on.

How much clearer does it have to be made?

It is quite clear that you are ignorant in relation to these issues.

They are produced by big pharma.

So what.

They are prescribed (usually) by psychiatrists.

Damn, I thought dentists did that.

They all worked together with government mind control (and individual discrediting programs) experiments.

And they want you to take your meds?

They are not trying to help anyone.

Yes they are. In fact they are more than trying, they are succeeding.

Protein synthesis in nerve cells?

What about it?

Isn't the brain the place where you really do not want to be allowing protein to get in?

LOL. How is it supposed to grow and function?

Isn't that what the protective barrier does (among other things)? Stops proteins entering the brain? Don't proteins cause the colloquial 'holes in the brain' when they make contact with it?

Are you sure? The blood brain barrier is made of proteins. It allows all matter of metabolic importance through the barrier whilst blocking certain chemicals and bacteria etc. that are harmful. Water, oxygen and the like pass through very rapidly while proteins, salts and even dopamine pass through slower.

So your research has shown you they are known to be neurotoxic.

They are known to be neurotoxins. But that does not mean that they are bad. Lots of things are nurotoxins. Food, beer, the air in ciities, animals, plants. Go learn what it actually means. Deny Ignorance.


Why are these drugs being given to people with psychiatric disorders? Why are they being given substances that are harmful to the brain when the individuals require (alleged) brain repair?

What government connections?

You come to a conspiracy site and are not familiar with MKULTRA? There is plenty of information out there.

CIA (and offshore) program in to mind control, creating sex slaves, assassins, couriers, hypnosis, drugs to make people appear insane etc.

Originally posted by randomnumbergenerator
What are you? Disinformation agents? Working for big pharma?

NO.

They are people posting in reponse to you, on a message board.

Just because they don't necessarily agree with your opinion, does not make them disinformation agents.

ATS is a place for debate and discussion. As such conversations work both ways.

reply to post by atlasastro


If they don't rewire anything, then how come the medications stop working, symptoms return, and a different form of medication is required to treat the illness?

Why do the same symptoms/illness, require different medications that allegedly work the same way? Why does the original medication stop working? Is it tolerance, or has the brain been rewired?

How do you suggest we as a society deal with individuals of this nature.

I'm not a doctor, but I don't think we are doing it right. I was told by a Russian guy that in Russia their mental health rates are extremely low and they don't have the medicating issues we have. If true, why is that? Are they genetically predisposed to sanity?

Please, provide the facts that lead you to believe this.

As I said, I am not doctor, but, isn't psychiatry based on reported experiences of the patient, as the diagnostic tests are lacking? I've been told by more than one mental health patient that they never had problems such as voices before they commenced taking the medications. Why would they say that? I mean, if they were hearing voices and lied about it to their doctor, why would they start telling the doctor that they are hearing voices? It defeats the purpose of their original deception.

Is this a personal response or one as a health care proffesional. I saw some amazing results from the administration of these medicatiions through my experience as a nurse. I now engage many of my cities mentally ill and homeless population in my city, in fact I am organising a trip for a group of them over easter and can tell you they wouldn't function without these meds. But hey, what would I know. It must be all the mind control going on.

This is personal response: People become numb, lethargic, emotionless zombies.

This is reported to me by people who take these medications: hearing voices when previously hearing none.

Sure if someone is running around doing incredibly irrational things, the medication will help.

But is it helping by treating illnesses that there is no scientifically validated diagnostic test for, or is it helping by numbing them down? The latter can be beneficial, but at what cost is it so?

Why are so many people misdiagnosed with psychiatric illnesses? Why are diagnosis' frequently changed? Why do these medications appear to cause some people to start experiencing psychiatric symptoms they never previously experienced?

Why do these medications just not work at all for some people? Why do they continue having hallucinations whilst on them? Why is that? Why, for some people, the issue doesn't stop even when medicated heavily?












[edit on 18-3-2009 by randomnumbergenerator]

reply to post by randomnumbergenerator


There's still much to learn about the brain & how it works. The focus with modern medicine over the last few hundred years has been on the physical condition, it's only really been since the 1950's that there's been any great interest in all matters of the mind.

If people have been turned into "zombies" there's every possibility it's a med dosing issue, for that the individual or their family needs to speak to their doctor to see if their meds can be tweaked about, lesser dose for example.

And I'd be a bit wary about your Russian testimony, theirs is not the most advanced system for providing mental health care or for recording stats. I'd suspect that many people over there are simply hospitalised forever or have never had the help they need.

Please be receptive to the opinions of others, I know from my Brother's own experience that anti-psychotic meds have been the most tremendous help to him, without them I doubt he'd be here today.

Originally posted by randomnumbergenerator

So you just wrote that pharmaceutical companies manufacture psychiatric medications which cause brain damage?

I did not write that. The manufacturng of psychiatric drugs relating to psychosis is in most cases needed because there is already brain damage. Are you suggesting that illnesses like schizophrenia are typical hall marks of brain functions. Are you comparing the perscription of amphetamines with the side effects observed from habitual drug abuse, the psychosis derived from that abuse and the need for anti-psychotics as a treatment for that abuse.

Are you acknowledging that is what you just wrote?

Yes I will acknowledge that I wrote that you are Ignorant.

Am I understanding you correctly here?

No, not at all. Not even close.

Amphetamines, which are neurotoxic, are prescribed to children who exhibit traits of intellectual giftedness.

Were. When and by whom. As I have already stated , that these drugs are overpersribed but I believe that this is cultural and not a conspiracy by drug companies doctors and governments.

Are you confirming that pharmaceutical companies develop, and peddle to doctors, medications which are supposed to help the mind (amphetamines in small doses

) which actually lead to brain damage and psychosis, which they then have a 'cure' for, that being neuroleptics, which are also neurotoxic and damage the brain further?

No. But your beliefs don't need confirmation. Please show were small measured doses of amphetamine leads to psychosis.

Is that what you are writing?

No, but you are.

Edit: Protein synthesis is vastly different to allowing proteins to cross the blood/brain barrier, is it not? Did they have that part in 'Neuroscience for Kids'?

No.
You were the moron who rambled on about proteins being held back by the blood brain barrier, not me. Look at your posts. I pointed out what the barrier does. I wouldn't read "Neuroscience for kids" if I were you, it may be beyond you. In fact i know it is.
You are grasping at protein synthesis as an excuse to attack neuroleptics.


Two questions.
Are you a scientologists?
Are you schizophrenic?

Scientology is responsible for attacking the use of neuroleptics and the issue of its effects on protein synthesis.
Which is why I ask the first question.
Secondly, If you are schizophrenic and are looking at the web at neuroleptics, you may have come across these scientology criticisms and do not understand them.
You want to look at metabolic consequences of neuroliptics via the hypothalamus and the suppression of TRH. I am sure that is where you will end up if you want these criticisms to continue.
There are side effects to mediation.
It is not an exact science.
It is commonly known that this is prevelant in many, many medications and not just neuroleptics.
Do doctors and pharmacologists intentionally hope for these side effects. No.

One last question.
How do you intend to deal with diseases like schizophrenia without anti-psychotics.

You need to show that the prescription dosage of these drugs will lead to psychosis that requires neuroleptics.
Amphetamine use does not always inspire psychotic episodes, only severe abuse. How does your conspiracy get to a point where you use neuroleptics?

I agree they appear to help.

But what are they doing to help?

Why are children prescribed amphetamines by doctors, knowing full well that this causes brain damage and can lead to psychotic illnesses?

Why do these pharmaceutical companies then have medications that appear to alleviate symptoms (in not all cases) which only work for a limited time, do not work on all people regardless of dosage, are experimental in the sense the doctors know what they do, but not how they work, and will eventually cause a relapse of symptoms which might be worse than the original condition?

Why are these medications often prescribed as sleeping aids?

Why are these medications often used to calm people down when they do not have a psychotic psychiatric illness?

Sure they work, but at what cost to the individual consumer?

It's like you coming to me and saying you have problems with sleeping and confidence and me prescribing you alcohol. It works, but at what cost?

reply to post by atlasastro

Are you a scientologists? Are you schizophrenic?

No. No.

Long term amphetamine use leads to addiction and potentially psychosis.

What happens to kids who are prescribed amphetamines?

It would be interesting to see the numbers of kids prescribed amphetamines who later turn out to require antipsychotic medication as a percentage of the general population. When on antipsychotics I assume they would have to cease with the amphetamine prescription.

Originally posted by randomnumbergenerator

Neuro correlates to brain, right?

NO. NO. NO. NO. neurotoxin.
Nerve.

So someone getting botox is actually damaging their brain? Is that the point you are trying to put across? Or because it doesn't, and isn't designed to have contact with the brain, it actually doesn't cause any damage? These medications are designed to go to work on the brain, which is why the neurotoxicity issue needs to be addressed. You cannot give something for the brain, saying it is going to help it, when it is neurotoxic. It is outrageous and deceitful.

No, no again, and no. Like I said earlier, you need to understand what you are talking about befre you infer effects.

So now you say they block the receptors, before it was damaging them.

NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. Its the over stimulation that is the problem, by blocking they are stopping that. The damage comes from over stimulation via too much.

Let's discuss public safety. Are schizophrenics notoriously anxious, paranoid, fearful and untrusting? Who are they going to hurt when avoidance is a clear trait they exhibit?

Are you for real?
Treating schizophrenia is for the PERSON WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA, and not just us so we don't have to del with our phobias. Do you know the rate of suicide amongst schizophrenics. One reason alone to treat it.

The original antipsychotics were introduced to combat amphetamine related psychosis.

Confirm/Deny?

Deny your Ignorance.

Antipsychotics are commonly prescribed by doctors off-label as sleep aids.

Confirm/Deny?

Deny your ignorance.



[edit on 18-3-2009 by atlasastro]

reply to post by atlasastro


I wrote

So you just wrote that pharmaceutical companies manufacture psychiatric medications which cause brain damage?

You responded with

I did not write that.

Previously I wrote

It would appear anti-psychotic medication is also neurotoxic, and the pharmaceutical companies are either unaware (unlikely) of this fact, or are entirely aware and are happy to be destroying minds

Previously you, or someone using your account if not you, responded to that with

To suggest that a Pharmaceutical company produces Neurotoxic medication is spot on. Of course they do,

reply to post by atlasastro


I wrote

The original antipsychotics were introduced to combat amphetamine related psychosis.

Confirm/Deny?

You replied with

Deny your Ignorance.

I wrote

Antipsychotics are commonly prescribed by doctors off-label as sleep aids.

Confirm/Deny?

You replied with

Deny your Ignorance.

In both cases you denied my 'ignorance'. Are you saying these things do not happen, or are you saying that you are denying I am ignorant and that what I am writing is actually true, and these things happen?

reply to post by atlasastro


I wrote

Amphetamines, which are neurotoxic, are prescribed to children who exhibit traits of intellectual giftedness.

You wrote

Were. When and by whom. As I have already stated , that these drugs are overpersribed but I believe that this is cultural and not a conspiracy by drug companies doctors and governments.

Working in the mental health industry, you should be aware of what overexcitablities found in gifted children are. You should also be aware of the obvious cross-over between these traits and those found in children misdiagnosed ADD/ADHD.

There are side effects to mediation.
It is not an exact science.
It is commonly known that this is prevelant in many, many medications and not just neuroleptics.

The brain essentially runs the whole body, does it not? Releasing hormones, neurotransmitters, indicating pain, itch, hot, cold, controlling movement? You can get a heart transplant correct?

The brain should not be toyed with. It is not there for experimentation.

Irreversible damage is something that is impossible to treat, hence the term irreversible.

Pharmaceutical companies have A LOT to answer for.

Originally posted by randomnumbergenerator

what you wrote.

So you just wrote that pharmaceutical companies manufacture psychiatric medications which cause brain damage?

I responded with

I did not write that.

Which is correct. Show me where I state that these drugs are to cause brain damage.

Previously you wrote

It would appear anti-psychotic medication is also neurotoxic, and the pharmaceutical companies are either unaware (unlikely) of this fact, or are entirely aware and are happy to be destroying minds

Previously I, as it was not someone using my account, responded to that with

To suggest that a Pharmaceutical company produces Neurotoxic medication is spot on. Of course they do,

How does this.

To suggest that a Pharmaceutical company produces Neurotoxic medication is spot on. Of course they do,

In your mind equal this.

It would appear anti-psychotic medication is also neurotoxic, and the pharmaceutical companies are either unaware (unlikely) of this fact, or are entirely aware and are happy to be destroying minds

I'll tell you how.
You mis-understood what neurotoxin means.
You infer from a false belief that this is an intentional toxin that destroys without understanding the effects of neuroleptics as blockers. It is a neurotoxin by acting on a nerve receptor as a block to stop another chemical locking on the receptor so that itintiates a further process.
You infer that due to tolerance it must be a hallmark of destruction rather than the human bodies natural response and further proof that anti-psychotics are TOXIC and destructive.

They are treating minds.
This is personal for you. It is clouding the issue for you so I won't engage in debate with you as I feel you need to sit back and contemplate your understanding of some key componants.

Take Care.

You claim to be a mental health worker, someone who obviously (in appearance, at least) cares about mental health issues.

I have been a consumer of mental health 'care'.

Why are you leaving this discussion? Why are you deflecting the questions?

I wrote that the drugs are neurotoxic. You wrote you agree. These drugs go to work in the brain. These drugs, by your own admission, are damaging to the cells of the brain. These drugs cause brain damage.

Don't deflect. You can't deny it. These drugs are harmful for the people taking them. It has even been documented in official literature. You even admitted it.

Now.

Were these drugs originally designed to treat amphetamine related psychosis? Are these drugs frequently prescribed by doctors for sleep?

Don't deflect.

Are traits of the highly gifted evidenced in people (mis)diagnosed ADD/ADHD?

You did not write they cause brain damage in those words. You wrote that they are drugs which go to work in the brain, which are neurotoxic. That would imply these drugs are toxic within the brain. Correct?

Yes or no;

Do antipsychotic medications harm cells with in the brain? Are antipsychotic medications toxic to cells within the brain? Do antipsychotic medications damage cells within the brain?

Are you going to run away and hide?

Big pharma has A LOT to answer for.

This is personal for you. It is clouding the issue for you so I won't engage in debate with you as I feel you need to sit back and contemplate your understanding of some key componants.

I think this is personal for you, or perhaps business.

You constantly deflect and avoid the questions put to you by coming up with medical jargon, which whilst perfectly acceptable in context, is not answering the questions. You are avoiding the issue at hand. You are presenting irrelevant information.

This is how it looks, by your own admission:

Anti-psychotic medications are toxic to cells within the brain and are widely prescribed for issues that aren't even related to psychosis.

Amphetamines are widely prescribed and also damage the brain.

Antipsychotics were originally developed to combat amphetamine related psychosis, which, conveniently, was introduced by the government (amphetamines).

The pharmaceutical companies which developed these drugs did so under top secret military projects, which had vast tracts of evidence destroyed, using complicit psychiatrists who had no problem with human experimentation.

My experience with psychiatric medicine, is that it almost killed me.
When I first started (For depression), my medicine would only give me improvement for about a week. Then another drug was tried.
The ONLY one that worked long term was xanax. But, who wants to have to live on narcotics?
I was diagnosed with bi-polar with psychotic features and put on haldol.
Because I heard messages through a radio in my mind.
Soon, I was incoherent, hallucinating and 8 days where I could barely remember what had happened!
My dad threatened them with a shotgun at the facility if they didn't change my meds.
I couldn't ask for a change, and since I signed myself in, that was the procedure for any changes.
They capitulated and another doctor took me on and stopped ALL meds. Lithium (At such high doses that I had thrush all the way down my throat). tegretol, haldol, stelazine, wellbutrin and more I can't remember! I was on 7 different psychiatric meds at one time.

I saw people deteriorate, rarely (if ever saw anyone who didn't have to go back to the facility) and saw one person die, because of all the high doses of medications.
It was like a revolving door, there.

Do you know they still use electro-shock therapy? WT???
I was addicted to speed before I started hearing the messages, but, I thought there might be aliens experimenting on my mind, before that.
Thank God I got saved a few years later! Born Again.
I'm not scared or 'floating in confusion' anymore and I have a grasp on reality, now!

reply to post by Clearskies


Did you know electroshock therapy was developed through finding ways to 'humanely' slaughter livestock?

Horrible, yes.

Psychiatric drug metabolites in our water supply. Experimental, harmful, psychiatric medications in our water supply.

It isn't all absorbed, some of it is excreted.

Big pharma has A LOT to answer for, wouldn't you agree?

reply to post by randomnumbergenerator


Yes, I agree!
A doctor advised me to put my oldest son an ritalin for behavior and I said NO!
He is WAY above other boys his age intellectually and couldn't 'come down' to the basic knowledge level of all his classes!
He had a scoupe test (I think that's how it's spelled) and read at a 9th grade level in second grade!
No ritalin for mine!

reply to post by randomnumbergenerator
hmmm...sounds interesting, I think I'll go and try some

reply to post by Clearskies


Sounds like a smart boy! Probably gets it from you!

When I was in first grade I was doing maths with sums larger than 6 figures.

A short while later I was taken to an army base and introduced to some high ranking brass.

In 6th grade I sat a test for a government run academically selective high school. I got accepted, and even had a special visit from someone who was from some government department.

I sat a military aptitude test upon leaving school, which was bizarrely similar to an IQ test, and achieved so well I could do 'any job I wanted'.

reply to post by randomnumbergenerator

No, he doesn't get it from me, nor his Dad.
We are pretty average, especially in math!
I have to google study to understand his fifth grade math!