It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Boeing unveils upgraded F-15 Silent Eagle with fifth-generation features

page: 2
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 18 2009 @ 03:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Darkpr0
Check out the head-on picture from the link in the article, you could almost call it an F-18
.


Yeah i noticed that too! Funny how 2 different planes look like each other, must be American aviation "architecture"



Sounds like this biggest difference will be in the aerodynamics, caused by the internally-carried weaponry cleaning off the wings. Though I doubt it's a huge difference since missiles and whatnot are designed to be reasonably aerodynamic anyway and the mass is still there. As well, could be marginally better roll rates as missile mass is located closer to the longitudinal axis of the plane. Hard to say just how much, though.


Mmmmhmmmm. Better aerodynamics are what the F-15 needed the most besides some other goodies.


No. That'd be a huge modification on the F-15's entire ass structure for 2D, and I don't think Americans have any mass-production designs for any 3D TVC at this time. I'm still doubtful about asynchronous 2D on future American aircraft as well.


Well that is a big misstake if you ask me but the reasons of not doing it are clear to me.



IMO I suspect that it faces slim chances. It has stiff competition from the F-35, and it seems that the F-15SE's only real advantage is the long list of people waiting for their F-35's to come off the line. Countries who don't feel like waiting for the F-35 might jump ship for the F-15SE, but I don't see very many doing that. If it really comes down to someone wanting to dump the F-35 for other alternatives they would probably look to Europe or even Russia.


Doesnt sound encouraging to me but at least Boeing tries to avenge its JSF loss via the easier route.



That may be selling newer Flankers short. If anything, Su-30 (MK plus variants) and Su-35BM are probably going to be competing for the same market space as the F-15SE. Except that Su-30's are already available, and the Su-35BM will still probably come out first for production. Could put some pressure on Boeing if they can't produce a significantly superior product.

Another factor that will reflect on the F-15SE is the rise of 5th generation jets. When the F-15SE finally gets introduced into services around the world (assuming purchase and use) it will be doing so basically in the shadow of 5th generation jets such as the F-35 and the F-22. As well it will face stiff competition as PAK-FA, FGFA, ATD-X, and KFX enter into their own respective services. With the flow of 5th generation technology within those countries (and quite possibly others if the American taboo of selling 5th generation technology doesn't stick elsewhere) the F-15SE will likely become outclassed. And, by the sounds of some of these projects, that time may not be too far away.


Well, now you say it, it might not be the SU-30 killer i imagined from the start but it is a big threat to it nontheless.

About the 35BM and PAK FA and co, this new F-15 will not stand a chance against those machines spawned from hell itself.


Just my thoughts.
Pr0


Thanks for awnsering my questions man

Star and:



PS.
Interesting choice for a company whose best customer's business is stomping on countries with nothing but land-based air defenses.


Now I'm really done.


Well that is a stupid thing to do and should be quite worrisome to US service people risking their lives...




posted on Mar, 18 2009 @ 04:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by James R. Hawkwood

No. That'd be a huge modification on the F-15's entire ass structure for 2D, and I don't think Americans have any mass-production designs for any 3D TVC at this time. I'm still doubtful about asynchronous 2D on future American aircraft as well.


Well that is a big misstake if you ask me but the reasons of not doing it are clear to me.


The F-15 S/MTD/ACTIVE had two F100-PW-229 engines with asymmetric thrust vectoring. Initially they had rectangular exhaust nozzles that were only capable of moving along the pitch axis. Under the ACTIVE program it got new engines capable of pitch and yaw vectoring up to 20 degrees. It could be done rather easily without a huge alteration of the aircraft.



posted on Mar, 18 2009 @ 05:02 PM
link   
I said it and i will say it again; there was and still is plenty of life in the basic F-15 frame. The Raptor program went ahead based purely on inertia ( F-15's for the Raptor program would in my opinion be fine) and the USAF is stuck with a small number of aircraft that are in my opinion ( wish i had the time to continue arguing specs; yes i still owe you cobbz) not significant force multipliers.

I would really like to see what Boeing can/will come up with in addition to all the changes they have implemented on various test aircraft and latest version F-15's. Even at a worse case price your still going to get two F-15's for the price of a Raptor program limited to less than 200 aircraft. I suppose i just can't get away from the numbers thing...

Stellar



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 11:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by Zaphod58The F-15 S/MTD/ACTIVE had two F100-PW-229 engines with asymmetric thrust vectoring. Initially they had rectangular exhaust nozzles that were only capable of moving along the pitch axis. Under the ACTIVE program it got new engines capable of pitch and yaw vectoring up to 20 degrees. It could be done rather easily without a huge alteration of the aircraft.


Then why does the new f-15 not have TVC then? It makes no sense due to TVC being vital for arial dogfighting.

The fact is that without TVC, the export F-15 or any other "new" figther entering service will not survive on the modern battlefield.
Yes i know the stories about off-bore sight/helm cueing missiles and/or BVR but still the classical dogfighting will happen on current and future battlefields and any advantage to win will be utilised including using TVC in dogfighting.



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 11:24 AM
link   
TVC is not "vital" to aerial combat yet. Yes, it's becoming more common and in time yes it will be on most if not all of the fighters out there, but as of now it's not a vital requirement. The Typhoon doesn't have it, and isn't likely to get it any time soon. It's an option but none of their customers to date have gone with it, that I've found. And that will be in service much longer than the F-15 will be. I can't think of any recently bought Western fighters with TVC off the top of my head, but yet they are capable of WVR maneuvering that is almost on par with aircraft with TVC.

[edit on 3/19/2009 by Zaphod58]



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 12:38 PM
link   
reply to post by Zaphod58
 


and there i was thinking the F-22 had pitch axis TVC



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 12:41 PM
link   
reply to post by Harlequin
 


"With the exception of the F-22", which was not required to have ANY TVC, but has it because when they designed it they put it on the design, so they left it in place.


Satisfied?

[edit on 3/19/2009 by Zaphod58]



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 05:17 PM
link   


The fact is that without TVC, the export F-15 or any other "new" figther entering service will not survive on the modern battlefield.


WRONG.

TVC only helps for close in, and there are other toys I would much rather have. TVC adds weight and yet another system to break. An F-22 would survive quite fine with out it.



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 05:46 PM
link   
Sure this is an upgrade of an F-15E Strike Eagle?

I was always under the impression it went like this:

F-15C - Air Superiority

F-15E - Tactical Strike Aircraft

Sending the F-15E back to being an A2A?

Shattered OUT...



posted on Mar, 19 2009 @ 11:16 PM
link   
Actually F-15As came out of the factory quite capable in air to ground



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 03:20 AM
link   
reply to post by ShatteredSkies
 


The mockup is the companies F-15E, with mockup parts attached. I would expect the actual SE to be pretty much its own variant.

TVC is not needed unless for some reason the aircraft is going high alpha, or needs it for some other purpose like lowering supersonic trim drag, increasing already inferior roll rates, or airshows. Otherwise, TVC is little benefit. Classical dogfight is not at >45 degrees AoA...

My real problem with the Silent Eagle is it won't last like the Raptor. The F-22 dominates the Super Hornet (integrated, AN/APG-79), and current Eagle. What happens if in 15 years the SE is flying up against J-XX, FGFA, or PAKFA? If a further 180 F-22's are produced, what will be the unit fly away for each? 145 million? For the F-15 to be procured it better be significantly under 70 million, as against future threats it is doubful it's even half as capable as an F-22. IMO, this plane is really export only.

[edit on 20/3/2009 by C0bzz]



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 06:38 AM
link   
thrust vectoring is good for 2 things, dogfights and dodging missles.

So having tvc is a advantage if it works properly in all air combat situations. People always come up with it only being handy for dogfights and this is simply not true.

Dont forget while missles can pull much more G's they also go much faster and thus also take more G's.



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 06:40 AM
link   
reply to post by tomcat ha
 


It probably wouldn't help with dodging missiles; as it only helps the aircraft turn faster at high alpha where the plane cannot pull 9g's anyway... and thus is dead if a missile is fired.

[edit on 20/3/2009 by C0bzz]



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 09:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by firepilotWRONG.

TVC only helps for close in, and there are other toys I would much rather have. TVC adds weight and yet another system to break. An F-22 would survive quite fine with out it.


Are you joking? You just cannot ignore the results off the TVC research program that spun around the creation off the X-31 and TVC'ed F-16 and F-15...

I mean, double digit kills versus 1 death all due to TVC giving you the supremacy in dogfighting...

The F-22 would be turned to ash if it doesnt have TVC.



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 09:18 AM
link   
reply to post by James R. Hawkwood
 


So you're saying that the Typhoon doesn't stand a chance in a dogfight since it doesn't have TVC?



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 12:57 PM
link   
I knew it. The F22 is now too expensive and they need something else to fill the holes. Too bad they couldn't bring back the F-23

I'm a bit biased


Yea - I think the grounding was for existing airframes, but this SE model seems to be a new build.



[edit on 20-3-2009 by ACEMANN]



posted on Mar, 20 2009 @ 01:13 PM
link   
reply to post by ACEMANN
 


Except that this isn't being marketed to the US. It's an export aircraft. They gave the USAF a courtesy briefing, but they didn't express interest in it.



posted on Mar, 21 2009 @ 12:12 AM
link   
reply to post by ACEMANN
 


Like I said, each new F-22 is around 145 million dollars; the significantly less capable F-15 better be MUCH cheaper for it to even be considered, as it would get dominated by future threats. And the aircraft is funded by Boeing, not the US. Apparently the F-23 would of likely been even worse than the F-22 in terms of cost; thus the F-22 was chosen.

[edit on 21/3/2009 by C0bzz]



posted on Mar, 21 2009 @ 10:49 AM
link   
reply to post by Zaphod58
 


The EF-2000 would barely stand a chance but only due to usuage of canards.
Canards do the same work as TVC but only to a certain extent.

Would love to see a SU-37BM with all goodies off PAK FA 2nd stage with 3D TVC and canards. But that is for an other thread...



posted on Mar, 21 2009 @ 11:04 AM
link   
reply to post by James R. Hawkwood
 


You sound just like the designers at the start of the Vietnam conflict. "We have missiles, we don't need guns." And then giving their pilots missiles that didn't work worth a damn.

Except with you it's "It doesn't have TVC it doesn't stand a chance." I'd like to remind you of the E/A-18, F-18, and several other "kills" against the F-22 in WVR combat. TVC is NOT the be all end all of WVR. Is it an advantage? Absolutely. Is it a guarantee that you're going to kick the hell out of any plane that doesn't have it? Absolutely not.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join