Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse

I have lurked for some time on this website with varying degrees of interest and concern. I have seen posts related to aliens, global economic conspiracies, and demonic possession, just to name a few. In these discussions, I have found some very intelligent points of view that have given me pause for thought, and, a reason to return. I had the impression that people posting to these news feeds were above hatred. Sadly, I was mistaken.

In reading the posts associated with the Catholic Church's teachings on artificial contraception, I have come to realize that the Catholic Church, for whatever reason, really sets off a few tempers here, and exposes many of the posters for what they are--arrogant hate mongerers.

Reading these posts, I discovered that some individuals think the Pope should kill himself. Others think he should engage in all kinds of illicit behavior. Some even stated that the Pope is simply, "retarded." As a Catholic--I'm sure this is where many of you will stop reading--I understand that there are many crimes in our institutional history. However, I have also found that many people stop listening to the Catholic POV simply because IT IS a Catholic POV.

Of course, this is a logical fallacy, and is something I believed most of the people on this site could look beyond. Instead, what I read is post-after-post of absolute hatred. It is, quite frankly, pathetic. Some of the "arguments" on this post have been less than enlightening to say the least. Give me a break. This is not to say that all of you posting here are morons. Some of you have presented valid points that should be discussed. I would just like to see much less hatred and disgust thrown about here. I though this website was about "open minds."

Do you with your hatred believe that Catholic doctrine has not been thoroughly "vetted" in the last 2,000 years? Do you, perhaps, think that there might be a valid point to these doctrines? Rather than simply dismissing them, shouldn't you at least know what the arguments are? Interestingly, in your arrogant dismissal of all things Catholic, you truly reveal yourself as the fool.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Money alone cannot solve the problem???

That coming from THE RICHEST organisation in the world.
Maybe if they actually stopped to think about it, the Vatican can actually help the world instead of helping themselves first.
Drugs that put Aids into remission does cost a lot of money but then they'll use the excuse that there isn't enough drugs to help all the infected in Africa.
And I'm sure that condoms can stop the spread of Aids , but then again the Catholic church would like a world full of catholics even if they are infected with aids.
Coz if you use a condom and your catholic , your against God spreading his magnificent word by having children to help further the catholic cause.
HHmm religeon speaking out of its preverbial backside again.
Well done pope Benny, your popeliness, Zieg Heil eh???

Originally posted by CoffeeBeans
How can anyone, let alone an organization as powerful as the Vatican, seriously advocate this way of thinking?

Because they have another agenda. And safe sex isn't doing it any favours.

If he seriously cared about the masses, he would actually be trying to help them, not pretending to do so.

Originally posted by jstine8585
I have lurked for some time on this website with varying degrees of interest and concern. I have seen posts related to aliens, global economic conspiracies, and demonic possession, just to name a few. In these discussions, I have found some very intelligent points of view that have given me pause for thought, and, a reason to return. I had the impression that people posting to these news feeds were above hatred. Sadly, I was mistaken.

In reading the posts associated with the Catholic Church's teachings on artificial contraception, I have come to realize that the Catholic Church, for whatever reason, really sets off a few tempers here, and exposes many of the posters for what they are--arrogant hate mongerers.

Reading these posts, I discovered that some individuals think the Pope should kill himself. Others think he should engage in all kinds of illicit behavior. Some even stated that the Pope is simply, "retarded." As a Catholic--I'm sure this is where many of you will stop reading--I understand that there are many crimes in our institutional history. However, I have also found that many people stop listening to the Catholic POV simply because IT IS a Catholic POV.

Of course, this is a logical fallacy, and is something I believed most of the people on this site could look beyond. Instead, what I read is post-after-post of absolute hatred. It is, quite frankly, pathetic. Some of the "arguments" on this post have been less than enlightening to say the least. Give me a break. This is not to say that all of you posting here are morons. Some of you have presented valid points that should be discussed. I would just like to see much less hatred and disgust thrown about here. I though this website was about "open minds."

Do you with your hatred believe that Catholic doctrine has not been thoroughly "vetted" in the last 2,000 years? Do you, perhaps, think that there might be a valid point to these doctrines? Rather than simply dismissing them, shouldn't you at least know what the arguments are? Interestingly, in your arrogant dismissal of all things Catholic, you truly reveal yourself as the fool.

I will not speak for everyone who's posted, but I will back up what I said on the first page of this thread.

First off, I too was Catholic at one point. I went to Catholic school up until tenth grade even though I renounced all religion at about twelve. It took me years to stop hating god/God/Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I eventually did come to a place where I made my peace with religion.

Pope Benedict, in my opinion, is using this AIDS crisis to further the Church's own agenda. I don't believe he really cares about the African people, its traditions, or its customs. Maybe that point did not come out as strong in my first post because I used sarcasm. If you go back and read that first post, you'll see what I mean.

I don't think condoms will completely solve the AIDS crisis in Africa. I don't think there can be one answer at this point. HIV/AIDS has spread too far and affected too many people for one be all, end all cure, but why is this organization taking one of these fixes off the table? The only reason I can come up with is to further its own anti-contraception ideas. This is not a time to spread agendas. This is a time for education and wiping out disease. Who gave the Catholic Church the right to decide how it should be handled?

As a Catholic--I'm sure this is where many of you will stop reading--I understand that there are many crimes in our institutional history. However, I have also found that many people stop listening to the Catholic POV simply because IT IS a Catholic POV.

I guess the difference between us is that I don't find anything wrong with this. If you knew somebody that lied, cheated, stole, and beat his wife would you listen to anything they said? Honestly?


[edit on 18-3-2009 by CoffeeBeans]

reply to post by DataWraith


I guess you kind of ignore the fact that BILLIONS of dollars goes to Africa every year to fight AIDS in the form of retro-virus drugs, not mention all the food and other help they send.

Ever hear of Catholic Relief Services, or the Catholic Medical Mission Board? Caritas International? Some of the largest charities in the world?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

reply to post by jstine8585



Sir,
Where i agree that hate mongering subtracts from constructive debate. I do have a real problem with obergruppenfuhrer Ratzinger. I find his standpoint on a range of issues from female priests to homosexuality, outdated, outmoded and often offensive.
I will qualify myself by saying i was raised catholic and attended right wing, almost fundamentalist schools so i have a fair grounding in catholic cannon. You mentioned the crimes the institution has commited in the past and i'll remind you that pope pious vii's tacit approval of hitlerism, the church's assistance of escaping war criminals was not all that long ago. Some were even hidden in Ireland. Who knows what might be going on in the secret corridors of the vatican today. I find it very interesting that with all the world banking problems, the vatican bank seems to be keeping very neatly under the radar.
On topic, did not god command adam to be fruitful, multiply fill the earth and conquer it?, Well, one can't be fruitfull without having sex so abstainance really is a non starter and always has been. You may counter this arguement by saying that contraception impedes fruitfullness, however, ideally two parents raising children is better than one or even none. Better again, if parents in Africa and elsewhere could tailor their reproductive capacity to suit their resources. Poverty, not contraception is far more conducive to the spreading of aids than any other factor, forcing young women into prostitution where if condoms were available both the woman and her clients would be protected. I know prostitution is undersirable but niether the pope nor i have a chance of ever stopping that, bread sometimes needs to put on the table regardless of some affluent white person's stance on morality. I would put it to you sir, that this denial of contraception to africans is part of the agenda to keep Africa poor and miserable and therefore much more easily exploited by West and it's money men. I have long held that the Vatican is more interested in money than morality, did the church not cover up clerical abuse to protect it's income stream?
I do not mean to offend sir, but to me personally, the roman catholic church is and continues to be one of the greatest forces for evil on the planet today. However, i know personally and am related to, several clerics who do outstanding work both in my country and abroad. They are to be applauded. My critisism is of the organistion and those who blindly and arrogantly lead it.

Originally posted by kufir
You people are all anti-Catholic *snip*.

Nope... not anti catholic... just anti lies about health in the name of religion.

Let's see, condoms are not 100% effective, abstinence is.

Abstinence is unreasonable to expect, condoms, although not 100% effective are in the 90% range on effectiveness... much better than nothing.

Condoms break and who thinks that millions of uneducated Africans are gonig to use condoms properly anyways?

Wow... you really think it takes that much knowledge to use a condom?

It's simple, although unrealistic: If everyone waited to have sex until they were married and were completely faithful to their spouse, AIDS or any other STD WOULD NOT EXIST!

See, where does this sexual morality come into the picture? What about before aids?

Now, I know all the porno addicts on this site couldn't fathom a life without constant sexual stimulation, but Africa is an entirely different place.

More moralism? This thread is about the popes statement about health, not about his agenda....

Evidently you have as much a problem separating the two as the Pope.

As for effectiveness of this method, look at Uganda. Their AIDS rate has plummeted, partially due to condom use, but MAINLY due to teens putting off sex until later in life, and the reduction of the # of sexual partners.

could you support that statement? Seems rather subjective to me.



See this is the issue... too many people who think that morality somehow intersects with contraception.

If you want to be against contraception because you are as pro-life as you can be, then that is fine. Be upfront and state that it is a personal stance.

DO NOT attempt to act as if your stance against contraception is going to slow the aids crisis. That is simply lunacy.

The problem IS NOT that people are having sex... that is so very natural and just what life is about... the problem IS that a KILLER virus is spreading through having sex.

If there were an airborne virus would you say that wearing a face mask would make the problem worse? Really? That's what the pope is saying...

So take your anti-sex rhetoric someplace else and realize this conversation is about health only... WHO CARES about who's having sex?

When I heard this earlier I was completely and utterly dumbstruck!

Here we have a religious figure head idolised by millions, broadcasting to his people and the world that "condoms were not the answer to the continent's fight against HIV and Aids and could make the problem worse"

Am I missing something here? because I keep on trying to see how safe family planning in Africa can worsten the state of these poor people? I am trying to get to grips with how condoms can impede and obstruct the fight against aids?

Is there another agenda that I am missing here?

Anyone?

[edit on 19-3-2009 by franspeakfree]

Originally posted by jstine8585
Do you, with your hatred, believe that Catholic doctrine has not been thoroughly "vetted" in the last 2,000 years? Do you, perhaps, think that there might be a valid point to these doctrines? Rather than simply dismissing them, shouldn't you at least know what the arguments are? Interestingly, in your arrogant dismissal of all things Catholic, you truly reveal yourself as the fool.

I read your post and I wanted to ask you to explain it? as I am trying to understand it fully.

Without going off topic it is true and can be seen through open eyes that the catholic church is corrupt and indeed has other agendas. This man is seen as a religious icon on this planet and some actually take his word as gospel (no pun intented) therefore, please tell me how condoms can increase the risk of the spreading of the AIDS virus in Africa?

I do not follow anyone apart from myself, I am no fool.

I've read a lot of hate here, and see this thread spiralling downward quickly. Instead of ignited another religious battle on ATS, let's break it down for moment.

Fact:

#1 - Africa has a serious problem, not the least of which are STD's. They also have government corruption, poverty, crime, violent rapes, disease, famine, high birthrates out of wedlock, and high infant deaths. But the topic here is about condoms in relation to HIV/AIDS.

#2 - The Pope, from his religious perspective, made an observation from HIS perspective, on what is and is not working, and what should be done in order to fix the problem.

The Pope has not been convicted of molestation, so he should not bear the burden of the sins of others, nor should an entire community of Catholics be forced to suffer derrogatory comments on their religion based on the deeds of a few. We all are associated with one group or another who have displayed a few bad apples here and there. Catholics are not immune to this. Are we to persecute them ALL now? I think not, because if that were the case, NO religion on the planet would be clean, without faulty behaviors from one or more of it's community. So the Pope, for the sake of this conversation, should be viewed without skewed vision, in respect to his RIGHT to offer advice from HIS religious perspective. He is under no obligation to be "politically correct" just because there are those who are anti-Catholic. Where the heck did this line of thinking come from? "Because I don't agree with you or what you believe, you are a bully, a moron, an idiot, etc." He is forcing no one. He simply made, from what I read, a very simple, respectful, honest observation from his perspective.

So moving on....

#3 - Africa has had condoms for a long time. Obviously, the condoms aren't the solution.

So, that leads me to ask a tough question from all of you. If the Dalai Llama had made the suggestion, would the reaction be so violent? Sure, in a perfect world, we'd all be virgins until marriage, never get divorced, and never commit adultery. But it's not a perfect world, and consequences are in place for us all if we choose to go against our spirit. No matter what religion you belong to, they all teach the same basic principles. Agree or not, it doesn't matter. The body will get physically sick if the person never seeks to do those things that are right.

So, while everyone is content to throw stones at the Pope for offering up a painful truth, (which it seems to me, in this day and age, that "truth" is not allowed to be spoken if it will hurt someone's feelings), no one is offering a better solution or offering to pinpoint the root causes in Africa, and everywhere else for that matter.

My feeling is that the Pope was elluding to a deeper issue having to do with the "spiritual" health of the country. I don't believe he was trying to convert them to Catholics, by any means! Nor do I believe he was trying to get them to do away with condoms to somehow speed up the spread of disease and death rates. Abstinence is only one aspect of what has gone wrong there, and everywhere else. It does worry me that "we", in more "civilized" nations, don't recognize this, and tells me that we are in no better shape for not recognizing the obvious.

Rejecting sound advice, regardless of where it comes from, is only a symptom of a much bigger problem world wide. Do you want the truth, or do you want a band-aide to cover an oozing wound? Focus on the truth, and not the person or the religion. If you disagree, then at least be constructive and offer a better solution. But if you're one of the "rabbits", I can see why there's a knee-jerk reaction - nobody likes being told they are doing wrong, especially if they enjoy it. Acknowledging the lack of abstinence in Africa requires us to acknowledge the same in our lives, and who among us has the guts to do that? The least painful way is to ignore it and pass the condoms....

we all know the real reason the catholic church hates condoms is because they want the Catholics to breed and breed to take over the world by numbers...

reply to post by fatdad


Perhaps this will help lighten the tone of this important (but rather angry) thread







PAX

Originally posted by emeraldzeus
I've read a lot of hate here, and see this thread spiralling downward quickly. Instead of ignited another religious battle on ATS, let's break it down for moment.

Fact:

#1 - Africa has a serious problem, not the least of which are STD's. They also have government corruption, poverty, crime, violent rapes, disease, famine, high birthrates out of wedlock, and high infant deaths. But the topic here is about condoms in relation to HIV/AIDS.

#2 - The Pope, from his religious perspective, made an observation from HIS perspective, on what is and is not working, and what should be done in order to fix the problem.

Here is where you are incorrect. The Pope did not make an observation on what was working and what wasn't. What he said was that the use of condoms would make the AIDS situation WORSE.

That is my issue with this. This is simply disinformation which is can lead the uneducated to think that condoms do not mitigate the risk of contracting AIDS.

I have ZERO problem with him saying that he believes abstinence is a better policy, for whatever reasons he has... however when he implies that that the use of condoms will increase the spread of HIV, it's just an outright LIE.

That's right... a lie.

reply to post by emeraldzeus


#1, I agree whole heartedly that Africa is indeed in a serious predicament. However the ills you point out, crime, rape, corruption, children born out of "wedlock", infant mortality are not exclusive to Africa. Famine on the other hand more or less is, yet you wish to encourage the birth of more children in an area that clearly isn't able to feed them. From my perspective it's better to prevent a conception rather than watch that life starve later but then again my perspective isn't situated on a self-righteous high horse.

#2, Of course not all clerics are guilty of molestation and i agree it was just a few. However the churh authorities of which Ratizinger is part, did their utmost to cover up the crimes and as i pointed out earlier, this was done to protect the flow of cash. Under JPII, Ratzinger was known as the church's pit-bull. You can't expect people to believe that he didn't have some input into or knowlege of this policy. The fact that an organisation who's stock in trade is allegedly "the truth" could cover up and lie so cynically is testament to it's own defunct morality.

#3, Again we agree, condoms have been available in Africa for a long time, perhaps even the ancient egyptians had them. Also alone, they will not fully combat AIDS. As i pointed out earlier poverty is the biggest and most glaring problem in Africa. AIDS and all the other ills you pointed out are merely symptoms of this problem. Perhaps your pontiff would make more friends and do more good if he concentrated his sex-obsessed mind on the causes of this poverty, namely economic imperialism and the rape of Africa's natural resources, mostly by the west and increasingly China. However, he has a bank to manage and you will NEVER find out where this bank invests it's money. Can you give me reasons for this secrecy?, and is it for the benefit of it's shareholders or the faithful. No, much easier to attack the practises of a poor and downtrodden people than the practises of his rich buddies.


Did your founder not say that you must remove the log from your own eye before attempting to remove the spec for your neighbour's?



[edit on 19/3/09 by feoil]

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Unfortunately, Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa, I am not sure if it is the largest. I am sure the missionaries are hard at work.
So they take seriously what he says.

But in the rest of the world, these ideologies are severly outdated. And the catholic church is shrinking exponentially.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
The Pope did not make an observation on what was working and what wasn't. What he said was that the use of condoms would make the AIDS situation WORSE.

Just like most others on ATS, you have a severe case of selective reading:

His exact words regarding AIDS was that it was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems"

1) Certainly, AIDS cannot be overcome by money alone.

2) Certainly, AIDS cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms.

As for the last part, can you imagine any way that the distribution of condoms could aggravate the problems associated with AIDS and African culture?

How about the whole AIDS-DENIAL epidemic where Africans believe that AIDS isn't even real?

I swear, it's like people here are extremely short on "gray matter."

Originally posted by logician magician

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
The Pope did not make an observation on what was working and what wasn't. What he said was that the use of condoms would make the AIDS situation WORSE.

Just like most others on ATS, you have a severe case of selective reading:

His exact words regarding AIDS was that it was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems"

I swear, it's like people here are extremely short on "gray matter."

Wow.. you really might want to look in the mirror...

Because he actually said they would increase the problem... don't believe me? Google pope africa aids condom increase .... then see what you get.

Here is his exact quote

Aids is a "drama that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which on the contrary increase the problem."

It's causing outrage in all the medical circles around the world...

www.newscientist.com...

www.iht.com...


Nice try though...

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Well having read just about every word in this thread I will say the following.

I wish that the Pope and many others in that sort of position would come down to the Orphanage and Aid hospice where I volunteer here in Thailand.

It may indeed help them to one either keep their mouth shut or at least not open it until they have a good idea of what they are talking about.

[edit on 20-3-2009 by geopyt]