Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse

reply to post by HunkaHunka


I'm not Catholic, and frankly think the Catholic church is "too connected" with the world's problems of today, but I agree with what he said.

First, let's not take his statements out of context. As I see it, he views condoms as little less than a band-aide on an oozing wound, (my words, not his), and I agree. Condoms won't change the sexual habits of what got them, (and the rest of us for that matter), into the predicament that we're in now with STD's, HIV and AIDS.

Teaching them the value of abstinence (except with the ONE you love) is most definitely the way to go. He's the Pope - how can you NOT expect him to approach the problem from a moral perspective? To fault him for that is wrong. Not everyone will agree with those sentiments, but we're not rabbits, we're people. We weren't designed to run around and hump everything with two legs, and walk away with no consequences.

Anyone who doesn't agree with that and has practiced a promiscuous lifestyle, is most likely suffering from one or more products of such behavior....fatherless/motherless children, STD's, HIV, AIDS, emotional problems associated with disassociative behavior, lack of emotional commitment in all areas of life, feelings of low self-esteem that is a direct product of being engaged repeatedly with un-emotional sexual encounters, and the list goes on. There's a reason why people make the distinction between "making love" and "having sex". The latter of the two has nothing to do with love, and from a spiritual perspective, is harmful to the spirit.

So, we can agree with the Pope....or not. Clearly, the problem in Africa is getting worse, and they've had condoms for quite a while. So maybe the Pope is on to something. Just look at the US....we've had condoms since they first came onto the scene. But does it really help with anything? It may not be "as bad" as Africa, but it's definitely not a bragging point if you look at the numbers! Everyone needs a good lesson in understand the fundamental basics of why abstinence is not only good for the body, but good for the mind, and most definitely good for the spirit!! Wrapping the problem in a condom is just like spraying a pile of pooh with air freshener.

Originally posted by kufir



I didn't know it was NATURAL to wrap a latex sheath around your knob...

What IS natural is the urge to PROCREATE. Condoms eliminate that aspect of it. There is a reason why pleasure and procreation are combined in the act of sex. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Don't be surprised when there is a global backlash due to it.

Brilliantly said. Having done maxim models, having a girlfriend is....just that much better.

Living the catholic life, the the people who do not must realize the benefits and relaxation that comes along with it. (and yes i am messing up, but having a gf is much better than random sex).

For guys, what happens after sex? you sleep. you aren't doing anything productive, nothing good, you aren't stopping the builderbergs, or getting some business done, or helping your kid get his homework done, or stopping AIDS in africa by learning about an organization, doing charity work, yaddah yaddah...

my hs bio teacher said its about 3 days till you get your full "reproductive prowess". 3 days. 3 days of your life where you aren't up to par on your performance. 3 days where you are unfocused, not able to share anything as good with others.


Freedom, selfishness, we can talk about all this "but I'm an individual, I may even be american!" but you aren't being productive after those 3 days. like it or not, you ARE LESS AWARE. Disagree? aren't you tired after sex? doesn't being tired make you...less alert?

I also doubt the Pope wants all Africans to die. There is a large African population of Christians.

Come on haters. Don't mouth off on him being a killer.

reply to post by kufir


actually I agree with you, not only for the reasons you outlined, but because the HIV virus is smaller then the holes that are in the latex of the condom. The size of the hole is equivalent to taking a small marshmellow and throwing it in a toilet bowl. The only reason why people don't catch the virus even with the condom more often is because the virus is held in liquids. those liquids are larger then the holes and therefore don't transmit through. It is possible though. The simple fact is condoms are not ment to protect you from STD's there ment to prevent procreation. What he says is enforcing the churches belief in abstinence, which is still the best protection, and sex in marriage. Yes, I realize this isn't very realistic in todays society, but in Catholism, he is supposed to represent God on Earth, would you have him say, "You, go hump like a bunny!", seriously, that is never going to happen. He will always take the moral high road, that adheres to the principles of the religion he indemnifies. To do otherwords would be to breach the moral code that all catholics are taught they should adhere too.

Cheers,

Camain

Originally posted by vonholland


my hs bio teacher said its about 3 days till you get your full "reproductive prowess". 3 days. 3 days of your life where you aren't up to par on your performance. 3 days where you are unfocused, not able to share anything as good with others.


Freedom, selfishness, we can talk about all this "but I'm an individual, I may even be american!" but you aren't being productive after those 3 days. like it or not, you ARE LESS AWARE. Disagree? aren't you tired after sex? doesn't being tired make you...less alert?

This might be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. You seriously think people aren't productive at all for 3 days after having sex? The entire planet would shut down! Your high school bio teacher probably didn't pay attention when s/he was in high school.

Just because some people prefer the "catholic lifestyle" and want to be with one person and only one person for their entire lives (the only one you get, by the way), then that's fine. But you need to own up and accept that not everyone wants that lifestyle, in fact its a pretty small minority that do. For the rest of the world, that wants to enjoy casual sex every once in awhile, there are many SAFE ways to go about it. The very idea that you can't practice safe sexual relations with multiple partners in your lifetime is laughable.

Yes, I feel slightly tired after sex. If its really late I might go to bed even. But if you seriously feel tired and unproductive for 3 full days after intercourse, I suggest you see a doctor. It's not normal.

Originally posted by kufir

Look at it this way:

Who are the people who typically use condoms and contraception in the world?

They are usually educated, white and Asian people (whether its Americans, Europeans, Russians or Japanese). Look at what's happening those people now. They are reproducing at rates FAR BELOW replacement, at levels NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

Now, who are the people who AREN'T using condoms and contraception?

They are the uneducated, the Muslims, and the Africans.

Don't believe me, check it out. These are stats from the WHO and CIA:

en.wikipedia.org...

I don't get your reasoning here. So you're saying that "uneducated" Muslims and Africans (a gross generalization if I've ever heard one) shouldn't use condoms? Even though they have serious overpopulation and disease concerns? Or are you agreeing with me that condoms would solve many of the world's problems were they distributed properly?

Originally posted by kufir
I did. I got a wife and have natural sex with her. And its a million times more fulfilling than sleeping with a random girl, or wacking it to porn, like most of you on this site. See how fulfilling your life going about it your way.

That's nice of you to say. Now you are generalizing about most of the users of ATS. I guess we all just come here in between wacks and banging floozies to upset the truly dignified like yourself, right? Get off your high-horse.

Sounds like someone could use a lesson from their own church. Oh right, respecting others' points of view has no place in Catholicism.

The Catholic Church rejects the use of condoms as part of its overall teaching against artificial contraception. Senior Vatican officials have advocated fidelity in marriage and abstinence from premarital sex as key weapons in the fight against AIDS.

The Church happens to be right this time. The problem though is that condoms are on Vatican s-list for the reason stated in the first sentence, so the Holy See is likely to render the stretchy countermeasure ineffective as a standalone tool for preventing the spread of HIV in Africa.

This all doesn't mean that condoms are completely in disfavor. They can be used properly when the pope visits Africa the next time.
cache.daylife.com...
Welcome to the continent, Your Holiness.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

The Pope today reignited the controversy over the Catholic church's stance on condom use as he made his first trip to Africa.

The pontiff said condoms were not the answer to the continent's fight against HIV and Aids and could make the problem worse.

The main problem with the Pope is, he does not know his area of expertise.

Originally posted by donwhite

The main problem with the Pope is, he does not know his area of expertise.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?

The pope calls for marital fidelity and sexual restraint, but there is a problem to the solution:

Every year, 800,000 African babies are infected with HIV/AIDS. Why wait until 2002 to begin research on a pediatric vaccine?

portal.unesco.org...=3515&URL_DO=DO_PRINTPAGE&URL_SECTION=201.html

It's too late now to subscribe to the Church's doctrine. The chances of contracting HIV from a virgin are growing fast in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Here we go again, the roman catholic church attempting to tame the 'savages' by imposing their set of values. HIV is a big problem in Africa and what the African nations need is practical sensible support from the developed countries of the world, not a lecture on an irrelevant moral code from the dark ages.

reply to post by drwizardphd

I don't get your reasoning here. So you're saying that "uneducated" Muslims and Africans (a gross generalization if I've ever heard one) shouldn't use condoms? Even though they have serious overpopulation and disease concerns? Or are you agreeing with me that condoms would solve many of the world's problems were they distributed properly?

When you face problems you cannot solve, you tend to get off into areas where useless rhetoric makes it look like you're in motion. Significant problems like 1) shortage of priests. 2) the end of the convent system is in sight. 3) the "center" of the Church has moved to sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America, yet the hierarchy is mainly old Europan. Fully a century behind in EQUAL representation.

I offer not 12 steps, but THREE steps to bring the Church into the 21st century as a power for good.

1) Allow marriage of priests, and
2) Ordain female priests, and
3) Elect the NEXT pope by worldwide popular vote of all Catholics!

One billion people would be unleashed onto the world and would make a mark that would inspire people for a millennia.

[edit on 3/17/2009 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Moreonethananyone


If only that were true my friend.1.1 billion Catholics.Some of them actually believe the silly old bugger.

Well after having grown up in a religious family, I can only tell you from my experience that a great number of self-proclaimed religious people are not fervent in their beliefs or practices. The Pope says all kinds of things that many Christians do not believe in at all.

I'm so shocked... the former Hitler Youth Pope that made chummy with a holocaust denier, is now telling poor uneducated brown skinned people the best way to kill themselves.

I'm sensing a pattern here.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
The pontiff said condoms were not the answer to the continent's fight against HIV and Aids and could make the problem worse.

(visit the link for the full news article)


This is terrible. The priests should have access to condoms like everyone else. Anal sex can spread alot of HIV, and for the pope to deny the Priests in Africa these condoms is a terrible thing.

Originally posted by CaptainCaveMan
Why do we need the Pope for?
What is he for?
The same as the Queen.
Lets get rid of this scum that is destroying this planet.

I'm with you brother.
(On a side note... I'd bet the farm that Pope Benny is a Queen too. He loves Prada. And no, I'm not making that up, lol.)

Originally posted by scordar
Well, maybe his father should have used one.

perhaps the world would be a little bit better place.

It is a relief to see that people like you exist in this world....

I am getting utterly intolerant, and fed up with the people in this world who go out of their way, to command other peoples lives, because of what "THEY" think is right. This level of disgust, and INNER hatred is not describable by the English language (by me), as I do not think the words exist.

If people start looking at the public health advantagous of using condoms which are well established in helping to prevent disease spread, it conflicts with the traditional birth control tools long rejected by the Catholic church.

As a "recovering Catholic", I find this bold faced lie as the ultimate contempt for public health, and respect for the individual for ideological reasons. Condoms are of course only one componant that attempt to reduce the source and number of disease vectors. I am stunned by this contemptous treatment of medical information for ideological reasons. It's rare I'm at a loss for words, but I am in this case.

Originally posted by emeraldzeus
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

I'm not Catholic, and frankly think the Catholic church is "too connected" with the world's problems of today, but I agree with what he said.

First, let's not take his statements out of context. As I see it, he views condoms as little less than a band-aide on an oozing wound, (my words, not his), and I agree. Condoms won't change the sexual habits of what got them, (and the rest of us for that matter), into the predicament that we're in now with STD's, HIV and AIDS.

Uhmmm are you presupposing something bad about sex? Or even sexual habits? It's not the sexual habits that got people into this so much as the fact that aids is traveling via these sexual habits. 100 years ago, those same sexual habits were just fine...

As for what he said.. he said it would make the AIDS problem worse.

How do you reconcile someone who says condoms make aids worse?

Teaching them the value of abstinence (except with the ONE you love) is most definitely the way to go.

You know, from a cultural perspective, believe what you want... from a health perspective.. abstinence is a pipe dream.

He's the Pope - how can you NOT expect him to approach the problem from a moral perspective?

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT!

He didn't approach it from a moral perspective. He disguised his moral beliefs in the trappings of health disinformation. He told people using condoms would make the AIDS predicament worse. That's not approaching it from a moral perspective... that's being an idiot.

To fault him for that is wrong. Not everyone will agree with those sentiments, but we're not rabbits, we're people. We weren't designed to run around and hump everything with two legs, and walk away with no consequences.

What kind of root are you smoking? Where do you have evidence of design to begin with?

Humans are just as much animals as any other animal on this planet. You don't make distinction between a turtle and bonobo, other than in degree... why would you make a distinction between a bonobo and a human? Other than in degree?

Anyone who doesn't agree with that and has practiced a promiscuous lifestyle, is most likely suffering from one or more products of such behavior....fatherless/motherless children, STD's, HIV, AIDS, emotional problems associated with disassociative behavior, lack of emotional commitment in all areas of life, feelings of low self-esteem that is a direct product of being engaged repeatedly with un-emotional sexual encounters, and the list goes on.

Really? You really thing everyone should be hardwired to be prude? Here is reality... some people are promiscuous, some people aren't... that's just the way it is.

There's a reason why people make the distinction between "making love" and "having sex". The latter of the two has nothing to do with love, and from a spiritual perspective, is harmful to the spirit.

Ok.. I'm not going to argue the spiritual point with you, because the pope wasn't speaking spiritually... he said using condoms would make AIDS worse...


Point in fact... for that, he has made a mistake.

I think that he means people will feel safer with a condom, and so have sex with those who have AIDS thinking they are totally protected, and problems with this could cause AIDS.

That's the only somewhat logical argument I can imagine

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse

www.guardian.co.uk

The Pope today reignited the controversy over the Catholic church's stance on condom use as he made his first trip to Africa.

The pontiff said condoms were not the answer to the continent's fight against HIV and Aids and could make the problem worse.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Could be....

What if they washed them each time in the Nile

reply to post by GeeGee


Because I'm Christian, not Catholic. I only know of one God on earth and it's never been some pope.

I do believe in abstinence and think, "Yes it's the perfect most awesome idea"... in an ideal world though. This is real life and people are only going to use them if they want to, so it should be made readily available if wanted. I know that I can go to any local Health Dept. and pick up some if needed and I think that if the supplies are available, why not?

It feels like he's making a decision for them but it really would come down to what the individual wanted to use in the end so why can't they make that decision for themselves. And if it saves lives preventing possible future abortions or preventing AIDs, then that would just be a plus wouldn't it? Or am I looking at this wrong?