The Skeptics Dilemma

The skeptics dilemma is they have no reasonable explanation for eyewitness accounts, mass sightings, abduction cases, trace evidence and more.

The skeptic will say we don't know what it is but you can't assume that it's extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional but they never tell us why we can't make this assumption.

It's not like we are coming to this conclusion about these things in a vacuum. There's alot of evidence to look at that supports extra-terrestials or extra-dimensional beings.

So why can't we make this assumption based on reason?

The skeptic says we can't explain what it is but we can tell you what it's not.

So on one hand they ask for evidence and then in the next breath they exclude extra-terrestrials and extra-dimensional beings thereby eliminating any evidence for these things. Do you see how illogical that sounds?

You then have skeptics who realize this position is illogical because you can't exclude them as a cause for these events. What they do is say, it could be extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional but it could be a weather balloon, chinese lantern or anything else and all of these things are weighed equally with extra-terrestrials or extra-dimensional beings. If they don't have any explanation that's weighed equally with extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional beings.

This makes no sense. We always weigh things within reason and say this is the most likely answer.

The skeptic does not do this when it comes to things within ufology. They don't weigh it within reason because they have to be able to equate any explanation or non explanation like we can't explain it but that doesn't mean it's alien, with extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional beings.

Nobody is saying that these things are proven but that there's evidence to weigh within reason that extra-terrestrials or extra-dimensional beings are the explanation for things like abduction cases, mass sightings, eyewitness accounts, trace evidence, pictures, video and more.

The skeptic wants to keep these things in the realm of possibility without weighing these things within reason so that all possibilities are given equal footing.

Let me ask the skeptics a question, can extraterrestrials or extra-dimensional beings be the most likely explanation for these things?

If no, please explain why.

There IS evidence, it's just polluted by the hoaxes.

Like I said, if a picture of a UFO is too good, people assume it's fake.

Because the skeptics have already made up their minds that it's impossible for any E.T. spiecies to vist our planet. But I do believe a healthy dose of skeptisism is required to weed out the frauds and fakes.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
There IS evidence, it's just polluted by the hoaxes.

Like I said, if a picture of a UFO is too good, people assume it's fake.

Good point.

How can you say that your looking for evidence on one hand and when good evidence is presented it's "too good to be true."

Why do you assume it looks too good to be true? It's because the goal is to avoid evidence when it comes to these matters.

Could it be that it looks good because it's true?

Great thread. You are absolutely right. As was recently demonstrated on the When does evidence become proof thread, the scientific method and the normal rules of evidence based proof are often thrown out the window by skeptics when it comes to the the UFO debate, and special double standards are employed which are specifically designed to absolutely disallow the conclusion that there are ET piloted UFO's in our skies - no matter how compelling the evidence for them is. I recently discovered that there was a phrase to describe such people: "Bogus Skeptics" (See my signature) and a clear definition and description of their methods. It's clear to me that many supposed Alien and UFO 'skeptics' are actually "Bogus Skeptics", and double standards are their hallmark.

How about instead of focusing on the evils of skeptics, you instead focus on attempting to prove extraterrestrials (or your favorite non-human-intelligence) are driving these phenomena? Evidence will stand on its own merits, regardless of any skeptic.

Just as failing to invalidate a hypothesis is not the same as proving it, nor is silencing or shouting down the opposition that same as proving your hypothesis.

Is it just me, or does anyone else detect a faint hint of weneedtoknow in the air?

[edit on 16-3-2009 by SaviorComplex]

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Might be, but he usually opens his threads telling me to stay out of them


I think it's because I upset him or something...

reply to post by SaviorComplex

How about instead of focusing on the evils of skeptics, you instead focus on attempting to prove extraterrestrials (or your favorite non-human-intelligence) are driving these phenomena? Evidence will stand on its own merits, regardless of any skeptic.

That has already been done and will continue to be. "Evidence will stand on its own merits"? If only. That's perhaps as naive a statement as "Justice will prevail". The problem is that such evidence makes little difference to the skeptics and no difference to the PTB and their pawns the media. Consequently, it makes little difference to he public who are in thrall to the PTB and drip fed by a controlled mainstream media.

Also, you are using a 'false dilemma', an 'either-or' fallacy, which seeks to make it seem as if focusing on the 'evils of skeptics' means that evidence for ET Piloted craft as an explanation for SOME UFO's has not already been provided (it has) or as if both cannot be pursued at the same time (they can).


[edit on 16-3-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Of course weneedtoknow because we are human beings and we are curious by nature.

Weneedtoknow what constitutes dark matter and dark energy
Weneedtoknow about extra dimension
Weneedtoknow about M-theory
Weneedtoknow about quantum gravity
Weneedtoknow about black holes

This is why we weigh things within reason even if we don't fully understand it yet.

Where is the evidence that can be taken to a wide scientific audiences and proved as extra terrestrial.... there is none, just a load of "look at me"s and a few trivial "could be this or that" pictures.

Sure they could be here and the government could be doing one hell of a job to cover it up, but from what I've seen on this site and others. The images and videos seem to have the same following as the paranormal images.. flying orbs, cgi hoaxes and "eyewitness" accounts.

When I see something I'll believe.

When I was young I believed in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the monsters under the bed. As I grew older I learnt that such things exist only in the imagination of children.
I think aliens are just a cheap replacement for the childish beliefs we had to leave behind as we reached adulthood. If they truly existed the evidence would be everywhere. Instead we have a few grainy photographs or amazing photo-shopped ones.
Sure, aliens must be out there somewhere but the distances involved for them to get here is just too great.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
Where is the evidence.... there is none

Clearly you have made your mind up and have it firmly closed. Otherwise, why ask a question and then insist there is no answer to it in the same breath? Obviously, your question is not sincere, and you are not looking for said evidence. Which is probably why you haven't noticed it.

The images and videos seem to have the same following as the paranormal images.. flying orbs, cgi hoaxes and "eyewitness" accounts.

Yes, but obviously there are many other types of evidence besides video's and photographs. And would you lament only having 'eyewitness' accounts in a court case? I doubt it. Why the double standard? Speaking of which....

When I see something I'll believe.

Have you ever personally seen an atom being split? Or doe you believe all those videos and 'eyewitness' accounts you heard? Etc.

The evidence is there. Enough to constitute proof. But you have to have an open mind and be willing to both do research and apply the same criteria for belief to the evidence as you do the evidence for the countless other things you believe.

[edit on 16-3-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

When I was young I believed in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the monsters under the bed. As I grew older I learnt that such things exist only in the imagination of children. I think aliens are just a cheap replacement for the childish beliefs we had to leave behind as we reached adulthood. If they truly existed the evidence would be everywhere.

I'd accept your analogy if astronauts and thousands of experienced pilots were regularly reporting clear sightings of Father Christmas and if former members of Government agencies were coming forward to speak of their involvement with tooth fairies etc.

The evidence is everywhere. Haven't you been paying attention? Or do you mean the government and the media would be feeding it to you like baby formula? I'm afraid life is not that simple.

[edit on 16-3-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by Malcram


The evidence is there. Enough to constitute proof. But you have to have an open mind and be willing to both do research and apply the same criteria for belief to the evidence as you do the evidence for the countless other things you believe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's nonsense. If the evidence was really there it wouldn't matter if you had an open, closed or pretty pink mind tied with a bow! You wouldn't have to open anything!If the evidence was real and tangible we'd all accept it to be true but the evidence for alien life visiting the earth is tenuous at best.

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

I'd accept your analogy if astronauts and thousands of experienced pilots were regularly reporting clear sightings of Father Christmas and if former members of Government agencies were coming forward to speak of their involvement with tooth fairies etc.

But there's just as much evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy, etc, as there is for your aliens. In fact there's more, as I see Father Christmas every year in my local stores grotto! I've never seen ET in there. . . I've said it before, it doesn't matter whether you're a politician, pilot, policeman or Uncle Tom Cobbley, when these highly trained and skilled individuals are faced with something unexpectedly they are just as likely to make mistakes as you or I.

I'm not too concerned about not having an answer to the questions. I can wait for better evidence. No need to jump the gun with a half-baked assumption. I'm perfectly comfortable to just say, "I don't know."

What's the big hurry? Think you're going to miss out on something?

[edit on 16-3-2009 by Nohup]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

That's nonsense. If the evidence was really there it wouldn't matter if you had an open, closed or pretty pink mind tied with a bow! You wouldn't have to open anything!If the evidence was real and tangible we'd all accept it to be true but the evidence for alien life visiting the earth is tenuous at best.

No, THAT is nonsense, and applies a double standard. You would never claim that a convoluted court case was not necessary because the truth should be obvious or complex scientific testing of technology or medicine was not necessary because the evidence 'should be everywhere'. Research, investigation and an open mind are always required, for any advance in knowledge. That is simply the way things work for anything in our world, but apparently this is intolerable when it comes to the ET/UFO issue. It's an obvious double standard.

The groundwork needs to be done in terms of carefully, open-mindedly evaluating the evidence (this stage has not been reached by society in general) until a conclusion is reached. THEN, it becomes 'fact' THEN it is treated as self-evident and has the aura of 'obviousness' you feel it should have now. As Schopenhauer said "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." We are still at stage one. But that does not mean the evidence is not there, it simply means that it is at present still being ignored and ridiculed by the naive and those with closed minds who apply double standards.

Take a fact like the earth traveling around the sun, rather than the sun around the earth. Seems obvious now, right? The evidence is 'everywhere' right? But it was not always so, and you sound rather like a cleric of the time would have sounded as he denounced Galileo's heresy. 'It it were true, it would be obvious, but behold, the sun clearly travels around the earth! If it were not so, the evidence would be everywhere!'


[edit on 16-3-2009 by Malcram]

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

I'd accept your analogy if astronauts and thousands of experienced pilots were regularly reporting clear sightings of Father Christmas and if former members of Government agencies were coming forward to speak of their involvement with tooth fairies etc.

But there's just as much evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy, etc, as there is for your aliens. In fact there's more, as I see Father Christmas every year in my local stores grotto! I've never seen ET in there. . . I've said it before, it doesn't matter whether you're a politician, pilot, policeman or Uncle Tom Cobbley, when these highly trained and skilled individuals are faced with something unexpectedly they are just as likely to make mistakes as you or I.

You aren't seriously putting that forward as an argument are you? You seeing a dummy of Father Christmas in store windows every year is analogous to seeing Alien the movie or stuffed toys of ET in a toyshop, NOT to the testimony of astronauts, pilots and former members of government agencies, etc.

reply to post by platosallegory


Do not confuse skeptics with debunkers. Debunkers are dismissive of UFOs and the ET hypothesis, but skeptics are open to the idea. Skeptics ask the questions and do the research on what is out there to rule other explanations out.

When I first hear about a case, I am skeptic about it. I then read all the evidence and what the witnesses have to say. I will also state there is plenty of physical evidence out there, and many excellent cases that have no known explanation. The Close Encounters of the First, Second and Third Kind are among the best best because the actual craft is seen. It is artificially made but not one of ours. There are many great cases that fit into those categories, and a true skeptic will admit it. A debunker will just dismiss them.

To my mind it seems that the crux of the skeptics rejection of the ETH is that it is 'extraordinary' ('extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence) because it would demand a radical overhaul of our current scientific understanding.

But would it?

It may have been the case thirty years ago but now when I hear about parallel universes, time travel, extra dimensions being talked about by serious scientists why is it such a stretch to believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial/extradimensionals visiting earth?