UK Baroness: "The constant accusation of Anti-Semitism to silence Israels critics is vindictive"

I don't recall Israel expanding its borders. If you mean the territories gained after being attacked continuously since inception in 1948,1949, I have some really bad news, but that's exactly how all international boundaries have been determined since time began.

The thing is, if you're going to jump on someone with the stated intention of wiping a nation off the face of the earth, and you promise to soak the ground in blood, you better be up to it.

In fact, Israel gave back Gaza twice, it gave up the Sinai, and that's a lot of territory to be giving up for someone you say is expanding.

Maybe you should dig a bit deeper into secular history before repeating some crap you learned by rote.

It's a whole new world out there once you quit parroting propaganda.

Originally posted by dooper
I don't recall Israel expanding its borders. If you mean the territories gained after being attacked continuously since inception in 1948,1949, I have some really bad news, but that's exactly how all international boundaries have been determined since time began.

The thing is, if you're going to jump on someone with the stated intention of wiping a nation off the face of the earth, and you promise to soak the ground in blood, you better be up to it.

In fact, Israel gave back Gaza twice, it gave up the Sinai, and that's a lot of territory to be giving up for someone you say is expanding.

Maybe you should dig a bit deeper into secular history before repeating some crap you learned by rote.

It's a whole new world out there once you quit parroting propaganda.

That's funny I don't recall the League of Nations or the United Nation's British Mandate as being called Israel but Palestine.

I do recall a terrorist campaign against the British to expel them and a well coordinated and planned effort on the part of Zionists to make sure they weren't left with the 48% of Palestine they were granted permission to emigrate to.

Me personally, I am a straight up kind of guy, if I steal your money or woman, kick your dog, or cheat in a card came with you and you ask me if any of that is true, I am going to say yeah, I sure did, and probably with a smile on my face. I mean after all I wouldn't have done those things unless I had planned and wanted too.

It amazes me the way the Israel and Zionist apologists always pretend it was some kind of accident that they are just the victim of.

Well your wallet fell out of your pocket and into mine when you forced me to accept a friendly hug and I really had only wanted to shake hands, your wife told me that you liked to hear stories about her infidelities and honestly even then I said no but she broke into my house and jumped on me first thing in the morning when I still had the sleep in my eyes. Your dog ran right into my extended foot, and actually hurt it pretty bad, frankly you are lucky I am not sewing, my uncle is a lawyer you know he would have done it for free. That was a trick deck of cards that one of my neighbors left in the card drawer and you grabbed the wrong pack and I am mad about it myself because being so honest and having won so much I had to declare it on my taxes and it pushed me up into a higher bracket and cost me more money than I accidentally won but you don't hear me complaining about it.

I could at least respect the Israel and Zionist position if it and it's supporters were mature enough to just admit to the deliberate desire and attempt to do the things that are so obvious you have to have something called the Anti-Defamation League and a usurped and purposefully perverted word like Anti-Semite to hide behind, that even then when those don't work you fall back to your last piece of cover, we have a covenant with G-d.

It's getting so old. Hint we stopped reacting to Black Americans wanting constant consideration for their ancestors being slaves a few generations after the practice stopped.

I hate to say it but it really truly looks a lot more like Karma to me than anything else if a group of people bound by philosophical and religious affiliation have such a glaring aversion to the truth and personal responsibility for the things they do born of their philosophy and religious practices.

The proof is in the pudding and the truth is the Jews who never left Palestine to go into Diaspora lived side by side with the indigenous Muslims who never left either for over a thousand years without a problem until the Zionists came to town. None of the Zionists showing up had ever lived there and the majority of them never had an ancestor that lived there.

Maybe you can show that covenant with God to the U.S. Supreme court when Barack Obama shows his Birth Certificate.

Israel's inability to make peace and reparations to the indigenous people Zionist terrorism and breaking of treaties caused grave harm and loss to is turning the Middle East into a endless nightmare that we Americans are having to pay an obscene price for.

It's a thin line between love and hate my friend that can turn on a dime and not only are more and more people beginning to sing what have you done for me lately, more and more people are saying what have you ever done for me at all, while others still are saying what have you done to me.

There isn't a hyphenated coined word or lie in the world that is going to turn that around my friend.

Israel should get it's act together or sooner or later the world is going to get together and get their act together for them.





[edit on 16/3/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

[edit on 16/3/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

While I do agree it seems everyone who speaks out against Israel are always painted with a broad stroke, I must point something out.

How many times on this site have some been called blind, non believers, trolls and so forth when they questioned some of the theories put out? Quick labels to offset the lack of an argument on any scale is a bad thing and cowardly.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Man, you are a perfect example of a closet racist.

Last time I checked Palestine was a Roman mandate not an Arab one. Also, check our facts about the so-called non-Jewish Zionist. You say you're a straight up guy, but hey you don't even research the latest genetic evidence. I guess science is not straight enough for you. Fact: there is little genetic difference between the Jews that left Israel and those that stayed. The whole Zionist Khazar theory that you love to pull out of your BS deck is a lie.


I can see right through you. I want you to remember that. Everyone else might think you're a straight up guy with wisdom. But you're nothing but a chicken-hawk plain and simple.

reply to post by Founding


Eh? What crap.

Palestine was never a "Roman Mandate"... Rome conquered Judea and after a couple of uprisings and butchery of the locals by the Romans, they changed the name to Palestine and the Jews went into the diaspora in the 1st century.

Some remained, but the Arabs soon moved in to the now empty space, where they lived quite peacefully side by side with the remaining Jewish population until the Zionists turned up in the 1930's and 40's, started blowing up the British and slaughtering all the non-Jewish people.

These massacres led to the huge flight of Arab refugees out of what was supposed to be their part of Palestine, and the Jews moved in and took over their villages.

What was supposed to be Israel in 1947, as declared by the UN is quite a bit smaller than what the Jews stole off the Arab population after they drove them out.

A refusal to accept that, from the outset, Israel murdered and stole it's way into existance and still uses these tactics today only serves to make a solution to the problem harder to find.

The Palestinians today find themselves hundled into refugee camps on land that is a fraction of what they were supposed to have, looking over a fence built on what remains of their land today into land stolen from them a generation ago.

Even as we speak, Jewish settlers continue to build homes in what remains of Palestinian territory, shrinking it even further.

Until Israel and Israelis accept that they did drive out hundreds of thousands of Arabs at gunpoint from their homes, steal their land and still continue to steal land today, then the Arabs will continue to fight them.

And rightly so.

reply to post by stumason


Israel has murdered and stole its way into existence!

Then let me ask you. Who the *snip* hasn't!



I suggest you read into the context of my Palestine mandate comment. Starting with the post I was replying too. And if that fails please read a history book.

*Staff Edit - Please do not circumvent the automatic censors.*

[edit on 3/18/09 by niteboy82]

reply to post by Founding


Oh, let me assure you I have read the entire thread, understood the post you were replying too and I am in no need of a History book. I am well versed on the events that surround the birth of Israel in '47, so please don't be so condescending as to assume I do not.

As for you comment about who hasn't lied and stolen, let me put it this way. Everyone else didn't have a Global superpower backing them up, throwing money and weapons at them. There was an agreement in 1947, at the UN, to partition the land fairly.

Even before the ink was dry, Irgun terrorists were massacreing civilians and driving many more out of their homes by gunpoint.

This caused a mass panic amongst the rest of the population, who fled the spread of violence but had every intention of returning once the fighting was over, as civilians tend to do in wartime.

They have been prevented from returning home, and even if they could get back to their land, they'd find it stolen and built upon by Israeli settlers. Instead, they find themselves in camps dotted around the region and used as a political football and ocassional bombing target.

Firstly, I admire this lady's courage for speaking out on her views without being afraid to voice her opinions; great to see a politician who is brave and assertive.

Secondly...
Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.
Criticism of Zionism is not anti-Semitic.
Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

So why do most people who oppose these things get called "anti-Semitic"? Well quite simply, because people who do this seem to single out only One nation as being in violation of UN principles: Israel. Most people do not place as much determination and passion in their views against any other country.

It is pretty prevalent everywhere; when Israel transgresses, internet forums, shopping malls, sports grounds etc. all become packs of anti-Israel sentiment.

While I do not support Israel's current policies, why are people in the West not:
- Opposing Chinese governmental policy that has and continues to torture and kill many Tibetan individuals?
- Opposing Robert Mugabe's proven mistreatment of his own people, and those who oppose his party's ideals?
- Opposing Egypt's (and nearby countries) rejection of Palestinian refugees?
- Opposing insurgent militias who want to create danger, instability and misery for the civilians in their countries?
(and many other worthy debatable issues around the world)

It is because of this omni-present focus on Israel's bad policies that people often get labelled anti-Semitic. Israel is not the only country whose policies defy UN resolutions. Israel is not the only country with a government that misrepresents its own citizens' ideals, and ignores the needs of neighbouring countries. Although to some, Israel IS the only one indeed.

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Man, you are a perfect example of a closet racist.

Last time I checked Palestine was a Roman mandate not an Arab one. Also, check our facts about the so-called non-Jewish Zionist. You say you're a straight up guy, but hey you don't even research the latest genetic evidence. I guess science is not straight enough for you. Fact: there is little genetic difference between the Jews that left Israel and those that stayed. The whole Zionist Khazar theory that you love to pull out of your BS deck is a lie.


I can see right through you. I want you to remember that. Everyone else might think you're a straight up guy with wisdom. But you're nothing but a chicken-hawk plain and simple.

Wow! Even supposing your accusation of racism versus simple honest analysis is true...I sure don't seem to be in the closet about it.

I put it out there undiluted and straight up for one reason. If you can't say what you mean, you can't possibly mean what you say. Believe it or not I would never say anything online that I wouldn't say and word exactly the same way to a stranger in a bar, or restaurant, or other public gathering place the exact same way.

While your agenda might be about race and genetics which I made no mention of mine is about something called politics.

Politics is the fine art of seeking a productive and peaceful consensus of people with differing opinions, and agendas and then trying to forge a compromise that allows them to be productive in a peaceful way towards something.

That there are differences in those with differing agendas and opinions and perspectives in this process that can and are as well as need to be identified to reach compromise really wouldn't come as a surprise to Sherlock Holmes my friend.

That someone observant in behavioral patterns and trends that constantly strive for a dominant, little or no compromise hand in situations and come up with poor and unproductive and even destructive results is one that believe it or not does emerge sometimes in better identifying that a party needs to offer more compromise and a different approach beyond trying to slam the square peg into the round hole just a little harder one more time in yet another foolish and ill thought out attempt to make something fit that obviously doesn't or doesn't well.

My best advice to groups taking that approach who for some reason object to being identified and critiqued should be to buy a lot of those funny fake glasses with the noses and mustaches a lot, a huge supply of trench coats, and the men should go in drag more often and dress up like women.

You know kind of like the Israeli's do when they want to execute someone in cold blood without trial or due process in a foreign country, violating every international and domestic law in the process.

Put a big question mark over your country on the map and the globe, keep us guessing who you are and what you are about.

This will spare your feelings about something that is called politics.

Politics is about compromise. Politics is about getting along with others. People who don't want to compromise and get along with others will use words insinuating someone hates them unfairly. Worded in such a way that they are doing something evil in wrong unfairly. This though is not because they are being treated unfairly, it's because they insist on never compromising and getting along with others because they are unfair.

While I promote equitable and fair approaches to peaceful and lasting solutions because they are fair and can achieve a lasting peace, people playing this card are basically saying, wa, wa, wa, that man said!

That ought to help.

If the last time you checked Palestine was a Roman Mandate you must be around 1900 years old now?

See politics in about dialogue I would have been normally inclined to go the other way, and here it turns out to be senility!

Brother if people can't see what's wrong and stop doing what literally forces others to then do things wrong in response then the world is just always going to be an ugly and terrible place.

You know darn well that if the roles were reversed, and the Jews were indigenous right now to another spot of land and any other group came in and took it you would be hollering for it back and money in reparations.

Now ask yourself why would the poor people of Palestine that you silly types want to pretend were never there to begin with, and were never ever really there ever, and were never ever meant to be there anyway really enjoy the way they have been stolen from, herded, displaced, starved, cut of from economic and political opportunities and often murdered, imprisoned and had their property destroyed without due process of law that fairly represented their individual roles and activities in universally accepted ways be happy in the little bits of land you have divided and cordoned them off in as prisons.

That this is happening all these years later when Israel has had the dominant position the entire time just smacks of deliberately exploiting a travesty of a situation for the political position that we have every right to do every thing to every body that could remotely not be in our interests in our selfish imaginations.

It's a drain on the world's resources unnecessarily and the money you waste on security you wouldn't need if you spent an eighth of it making peace and putting it into peace efforts wouldn't even have a situation happening where you can play this silly little race card defense of it.

Israel needs to make peace with the Palestinians and give them a real reason to be enjoy the Israeli presence instead of all this barbaric perpetual collective punishment to antagonize them constantly into desperate measures to cry for a world's help, while Israel is sucking up every dime it can and politically strong arming and corrupting every politician to just keep from having to make a fair and equitable peace.

I am a human being, and I find it repulsive.

However you want to label that is your business.

It doesn't make it any less repulsive or Israel's behavior any more palatable for a person with conscious and a heart.

You are right, you can see right through me, evidently I must have been standing in front of a mirror!

Make peace and give someone a hug. Try it you might like it. People don't punish their friends they celebrate them. You don't win friends by being unfair and dealing with the real facts of issues that lead to a consensus where people can agree and be friends.

Click here for more information.

Someone starts a thread about anti-semetic attitudes, or lack thereof, and someone has to come in and call someone anti-semetic. Gimme a break... Do those people even know what true hate is? I've seen it, growing up in the southern US. Most people use the word 'hate' so willy-nilly, and don't appeare to have a true grasp of the concept. The reason you will never see a peace in the middle east is simple, the jews think they are superior to everyone else because they are 'God's People.' Same for the muslims, they feel they are superior because they are 'God's People.' Hmm, there does seem to be a bit of confusion there. I don't beleive I read any racism in Proto's post. He was fairly straightforward and logical. Got his point acrossed without once stooping to dubious comments about other posters. Of course you have the typical response by a poster who cannot defend his position, and Proto gets attacked. Typical, predictable, and downright silly. If you have nothing to add to the debate, leave it alone.

Chrono

This forum is swarming with outright Jew Haters.

But they've been conditioned by political correctness so that when they want to express their bile their typing fingers goes to the Z key.

One can only wonder what kind of personal misery drives them.

Ardent students of anything that Jews have ever said or done that can be somehow dot connected to show vast concealed plots, secret controls, hidden global expansion agenda.

If you remove the usual Kiddie Konspiracy stuff, one sees a people who were almost completely wiped out in Europe, half of whom now tenuously try to hold on to a tiny strip of land in as hostile a neighbourhood as one could choose, that they've been having to defend for 60 years.

Really not much in the way of achievement for a group of land grabbing people I keep being told control the politics and wealth in the world.

Human affairs and history don't reduce to storybook bad guys and good guys. Simple people get confused by complex situations and relations. A nice villain, a nice scapegoat, is always the easiest way to get some kind of handle on what you don't know about and could never really understand.

Much more I could say, but lecturing to blocks of wood yields few results.


Mike F








[edit on 17-3-2009 by mmiichael]

star and flag.

nice find. I just do not want to imagine what the new israel government is going to make accusation like. this one looks extremly agressive and they will start the wars in the area. to keep the rest of the world away and us in it they will have again to make everyone to feel guilty even for thinkig that the Israel act in incorect way.

reply to post by mmiichael


Mmmmm... so how do you account for the many Jews, individuals and groups, around the world who wholeheartedly condemn the actions of Israel and it's Zionist leadership?
There are also many Jews who openly oppose the likes of the ADL etc. Are they all anti-semites and Jew haters too? What of the Israeli peace protesters sticking up for the Palestinians?

Your whole argument starts to fall to pieces when those of the Jewish faith also openly oppose the Zionist movement and what they are doing.

While its good to have healthy debate on the issue its also sad to see hatred and intolerance within this thread. We know things arent just black and white but we need Israel to take a more responsible stance on the situation instead of attacking and bullying anyone that criticises their crazy policies.

I would also like to see a wide investigation into the holocaust considering the huge implications of what happened, ie. Setting up a new country and the illegal expansion of said country through violence backed (and systematically ignored) by the west.

Would that be anti-semitic to ask for a proper investigation considering the numbers killed in concentration camps keeps getting quietly reduced, so the original 6 million figure is now about 1.5 million (with no emphasis on others who were also killed) and the impracticalities of the gas chambers as human extermination rooms. These discrepencies alone should cause alarm. Add to that the myths and accusations about who was behind this and how it has benefitted the zionist cause so much. History books and Israeli lobbies still quote the 6 million figure yet that number seems greatly inflated, why lie about such a thing?

People are wondering why Israel gets such attention and not china, zimbabwe etc. and I understand this, but we aren't directly financing the murder and displacement in these lands, and there's evidence that other countries are using Israels hypocrisy as an excuse to carry on their brutal regimes. Is it time we looked into this or is that going to far down the rabbit hole?

[edit on 17-3-2009 by BigC2012]

Hows this. Palestinians and israelis are both as bloody disgraceful as one another. The Palestinians do not have the right to launch small missiles into Israel, but the israelis have no business killing 1,300 people in retaliation. The Palestinians have got to stop allowing terrorists to walk the streets. The Israelis should get the hell back inside the internationaly agreed borders and quit whining.
Now regards anti semitism ... My Grandfathers both fought Nazis and helped save Jews from slaughter. They both saw friends killed, sometimes vaporised in explosions, and killed men in defense of thier home, in defense of everyone, and everything against true anti semitism. Even now when I see a punk wearing a swastika , I tend to explain the faux pas he is commiting (non verbal communication is a must in this day and age). However, there are some things that one must learn. When one is sinned against, there is a temptation there to sin against another, and I understand these things, I do .I have been tempted by sinning against others as a reaction to being sinned against . But you get into that habit and you become disgusting to your fellow man.
What one needs to understand is that there IS a massive anti semite population in the world, right from the extreme right wing xenophobes, all the way to plain old hoodlums who just want an excuse to hurt someone. There is also a very suspicious attitude amongst SOME prominent figures, that you cant mess with Israel, and that if you do , you are a Nazi.Well I cant say that I approve of thier invasion of Gaza, any more than I could say that I agree with the reasons for the Iraq conflict, or the war on terror for that matter. Sure, terror needs getting rid of , but thats what MI5 and the CIA are for. That should never become a land battle. And neither should the Gaza conflict. Israel has occupied territory it has no right to, and killed people for opposing its attitude... to be honest, this sort of thing makes me think that maybe the Nazis left more of a mark on the entire national ego of Israel,than anyone thought. Think about it , armed men moving through a ghetto full of poor folk, with nothing but a rag tag bunch of crazies in civvies to protect them, blowing up homes, shooting non combatants, landing tank rounds outside schools full of mothers and children, with little regard for innocence ? Remind you of WW2 much ? And who was it that was behaving like that before hmmm? If I ever hear any more of this "Oh no your an anti semite " or "surely your opposition to our right to peace is rascism " crap again I will explode!

reply to post by setfree


She talks funny.

But I agree with what she is saying. Hey Israel, wanna stop Hamas from firing rockets? Want to stop suicide bombers?

STOP MAKING LIFE IMPOSSIBLE FOR PALISTINIANS TO EXIST!

Shesh oh pete, you think peace would be easy?

Religion certainly is a driver for hatred and intolerance. Its used as an excuse to gain power and territory by evil doers on all sides.

Here in Northern Ireland sectarianism is still there simmering under the surface allowed to continue through religious schools and same religion marriage the people here are always going to have a division. In the ME its the same, it suits both religions to serve as a war cry to take land.

The problem now is that young children in Palestine know nothing good of the 'jews' because the division has been drawn along that line. They are being taught to hate along religious terms because thats the reality of the situation.

It wasn't that long back here in Belfast that grown men lined up each morning to harrass primary school children along religious lines, an excuse to thrown urine filled balloons, profanities and even a pipe bomb.

I'm sure there are a massive majority on both sides (Israeli and Arab) that dont want this division but who's leaders, political and religious, see more benefit from direct confrontation. Religion makes me sick.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by BigC2012]

I served in combat, and our "rear" area was a forward firebase. Every few days, we'd get four or five mortar rounds, specifically targeting our outhouses and our water trucks.

This went on for months, and each time, we'd send out patrols to try to find those mortar crews.

Out of curiosity, I plotted the patrols, the direction of the mortar fire, the times of the day, the weather, and the results.

I noted that there was only one small sector from which no mortar rounds were ever fired from, an area down by the overgrown, shallow river.

Long story short, I found a track where they came to get water, and I waited in the river all night, freezing my ass off. When two came down to get water the next morning, I followed them back to their encampment, and observed for a couple hours, wanting to be the surprisor, and not the surprisee.

I didn't just kill them. I went a bit over the top. Way over the top.

And for the next six months until I left, we never, ever received another mortar attack.

The problem for the Israelis is that they haven't made believers out of the local neighbors. And so this violence, and culture of violence continues.

One may not like the truth, as often the truth is brutal, but Israel can only purchase longer periods of relative peace through ruthless execution of the principles of warfare. Those you kill cannot strike you again.

You kill enough, with sufficient emphasis, and they don't want any more of you. That's the brutal truth. It's a truth that has been proven hundreds of times over the millennia. You don't have to like the truth, and you don't have to like history, but while some like to learn from their mistakes, I like to learn from others mistakes.

The Israelis have been under constant assault since inception. I wasn't around at the founding of the US, and I make no excuses for what my forefathers did. But now I'm here. And I'd kill every SOB, every mother's son, and many of the mothers if someone attacked my country and my fellow citizens. Certainly not like it's something I haven't done before.

I'm sure there are those in Israel that feel the same way.

Nice advocance of violence there. (Sarcasm btw)

Anyway, saw this article there on how zionism is the problem, might be of interest to some as regards to this thread.


LA Times Article

"To be Jewish, I was raised to believe, meant understanding oneself as a member of a tribe that over and over had been cast out, mistreated, slaughtered. Millenniums of oppression that preceded it did not entitle us to a homeland or a right to self-defense that superseded anyone else's. If they offered us anything exceptional, it was a perspective on oppression and an obligation born of the prophetic tradition: to act on behalf of the oppressed and to cry out at the oppressor.

For the last several decades, though, it has been all but impossible to cry out against the Israeli state without being smeared as an anti-Semite, or worse. To question not just Israel's actions, but the Zionist tenets on which the state is founded, has for too long been regarded an almost unspeakable blasphemy."