Why the Chemtrail Conspiracy is Unplausible, and Meteorologically Innacurate

Well, this has certainly become a circus.

From first glance, it is the usual stuff.

So far, Ozweatherman has been labeled as spreading dis-info and not doing his research.

Really? Please read his post again.

Can any of you chemtrail believers debunk ANYTHING he said in his opening post? No you can't

So you simply ignore it and start posting Youtube videos. Well done.

Sorry, but my Aussie friend has slammed you in this thread. You have not brought one credible argument to the table.

Address the points he raised in the OP if you can. Anything else is off topic.

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Does anyone really think that "persistent contrails" -- WATER VAPOR from jet exhaust -- could linger for HOURS, then slowly spread out and completely OBLITERATE a clear blue sky?

Yeah....clouds do it all the time. WATER VAPOR...lingering for hours...spreading out and OBLITERATING a clear blue sky.

Standard comeback that attempts to fool the naive with more propaganda.

Contrail formation/dissipation and the formation of clouds are entirely different physical processes.

If water vapor from contrails was capable of obliterating clear blue skies (it's not -- particle size is WAY too small), people who live near airports would never see clear skies again.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
If water vapor from contrails was capable of obliterating clear blue skies (it's not -- particle size is WAY too small), people who live near airports would never see clear skies again.

Contrails don't generally don't form near the airport because the planes aren't flying high enough yet, unless it's a plane flying overhead already at altitude.

Persistent contrails have been seen since 1921. They formed and spread into clouds. Are you saying that they've been spraying us since 1921 until now?

[edit on 3/16/2009 by Zaphod58]

Ive not posted in a thread for a LONG time, but following DOCTORDOOM and CHEMBREATHER recent activity i couldnt help myself.

This is aimed at BOTH of you in particular!.

Dont ask for evidence then ignore it when posted
Dont post links to a website holding only hearsay accounts
Dont claim they are real then say that proof they arn't rests on everyone elses shoulders (you claim something, you damn well better provide some evidence)
And please, please, please, stop saying i dont remember them being there....
This is just as absurd as me saying

"GOSH i dont remember this many computers when i was younger, those god damn government agencies must be installing them covertly!"

Your entitled to your opinions but remember when you babble like an idiot and dont provide any evidence, were also entitled to laugh our asses off

Mod Note: Courtesy Is Mandatory – Please Review This Link.

Please address the issue at hand and refrain from attacking fellow members.

[edit on 3/16/2009 by maria_stardust]

Originally posted by AmenStop
The OP is wrong. He is correct in explaining what contrails are, but he is ignoring chem trails. I watch jets fly over all the time, some leave trails that go away in a few minutes (those are contrails) then some stay all day and make clouds (those are chem trails). The funny thing is with their chem trails you can see they start just above the city then they go all the way across then they stop. the plains don't land the trails are in different areas. How come they only happen over the populated areas, and when they leave those ares they go away.

This is just another attempt at covering up what is going on. The German Air force admitted that they are spreading filaments to control the weather. Our government is doing the same. But don't let them fool you, they are doing more than just that. Operation Clover Leaf has four parts to it. W heather control is only one.

Maybe the planes are at differing altitudes from each other therefore determining which ones create contrails or not and how much that specifics plane contrails will linger because of the altitude they have from eachother.

It is hard to say exactly how high a plane is and its distance from another plane in comparison since there is not much point of reference for plane size and distance from a ground view. Altitude has a big part I'm sure.

As for the contrails ending at the city limits, maybe that is because the city below a specific area of supposed chemtrails affects the atmosphere above it therefore creating what we think is controlled chemtrails. It could also possibly be our limited view.

Just speculating. Not saying that THIS IS THE WAY IT IS. Just saying it could be......

I think this doesn't bend either way, I can only conclude with that the chemtrails debunkers are either on an agenda or are not looking up. Seriously.
I for once can not believe that just a few planes out of many makes such dence contrails that the skies gets smudged like it does, coz that is what's going on.

And again, THIS page has alot of research to it, it dont even use the chemtrail word that much, yet it is completely overrun by the people here.

Trail research

I posted this one also on another thread, debuked due to the fact that the planes that showed high levels/abnormal trail lenghts etc. was not identified by the flight explorer, is a dumb argument, you can not seriously expect these planes being labeled 'Chem-Plane rt-122' in the database.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
I posted this one also on another thread, debuked due to the fact that the planes that showed high levels/abnormal trail lenghts etc. was not identified by the flight explorer, is a dumb argument, you can not seriously expect these planes being labeled 'Chem-Plane rt-122' in the database.

You also can't seriously expect them to list military flights on there either. That's like saying "We have a B-2 flying today. It's going to Afghanistan then back to Whiteman. Here, track it but don't tell anyone."

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Standard comeback that attempts to fool the naive with more propaganda.

Uh unh.....standard comeback that attempts to educate the naive with more information.

Mod Note: Courtesy Is Mandatory – Please Review This Link.

Please address the issue at hand and refrain from attacking fellow members.

[edit on 3/16/2009 by maria_stardust]

Originally posted by ChemBreather
Yes and he is FULLY briefed on EVERY THING hes airline DO ?

There are some of us on here who worked for the airlines, and were aware of everything they did. For example I supervised the ramp for several major commercial airlines, and I had to know everything that occurred, everything that was loaded, every piece of equipment that neared my aircraft, and the weights of everything. All the weights have to be handed over to the pilot so he can trim his aircraft, set flaps, etc. The pilot, normally the first officer, has to preform a ramp walk around of his aircraft prior to departure. So you bet they would know if anything like this was happening, and you bet I would have known about it for certain.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
Fat chance my friend !!! And how can you say we should crawl in under an comercial plane? we get arrested for tresspassing and/or terrorsm as fast as Zapp !

Go work for an airline or a ramp contract company. I have crawled under every aircraft type that has been made at some point or other. Airlines rotate equipment, so there are some airlines, where I have not only worked on every aircraft type that they have, but most likely every single aircraft that is in their fleet.

Originally posted by ChemBreather
And what is this plane mechanic lying about exactly ?

I began to trace the piping from the pumps. These pipes lead to a network of small pipes that ended in the trailing edges of the wings and horizontal stabilizers. If you look closely at the wings of a large airplane you will see a set of wires, about the size of your finger, extending from the trailing edge of the wing surfaces. These are the static discharge wicks. They are used to dissipate the static electric charge that builds up on a plane in flight. I discovered that the pipes from this mystery system lead to every 1 out of 3 of these static discharge wicks. These wicks had been "hollowed out" to allow whatever flows through these pipes to be discharged through these fake wicks.

Yes actually he is lying. That “story” has been around since the late 90's, and when I first came across it it even had photos attached to it. They removed the photos because anyone involved in aviation could immediately tell it was either a prank, someone trying to con folks, or a complete moron with too much time on his hands at work one day. You do know that day-shift mechanics are some of the biggest pranksters in an airport, right? I mean they have nothing better to do for 90% of the day other then play cards, watch TV, screw around, and occasionally change a tire or fill up some oil. The night-shift guys, and the hanger mechanics are the ones who get the heavy workloads on a daily basis, as that is where/when the real maintenance occurs.

Originally posted by defcon5

Airline Mechanic stumbles upon chemical spraying unit.
The other mechanics are happy to let them do it. Because of this you will have only 2 or 3 mechanics that work on these systems at any one airport. No one pays much attention to these guys and no mechanic socializes with another mechanic who only works on the waste systems. In fact I had never thought much about this situation until last month.

BS, cabin service agents maintain the lavatory system. They are normal ramp agents who work for the group that cleans the aircraft interiors between flights, and all cabin service personnel are trained for this job. No one wants to work lav duty on a daily basis, as it’s a dirty, smelly job, so personnel are switched frequently.

The next day I was on the company computer to look up a wiring schematic. While I was there I decided to look up the extra equipment I had found. To my amazement the manuals did not show any of the extra equipment I had seen with my own eyes the day before. I even tied in to the manufacturer files and still found nothing. Now I was really determined to find out what that equipment did.

Ground Lavatory Servicing 101:
Here is the standard Lavatory Panel as shown in a ground service manual. Though its not for an MD-80 specifically, lav panels are standard across the board so that any station, or even a contractor, can service them if need be. Airlines frequently borrow equipment from each other when theirs breaks down. Paymovers, Airstarts, and Towbars are the most frequently exchanged equipment as it can be aircraft specific, but all equipment is standard from airline to airline.
Standard Lavatory Panel:

Standard Lavatory Service Truck:

Truck Tank Stats:

Ford Lavatory Ground Service Truck
3.0 Water/Rinse Tank
3.1 200 gallon (757 liter) capacity
3.2 Stainless steel construction
3.3 Level gauge
3.4 Internal baffle
3.5 16”x12” (406 mmx305 mm) stainless steel manhole

4.0 Waste Tank
4.1 350 gallon (1325 liter) capacity
4.2 Stainless steel construction
4.3 Sight gauge
4.4 Internal baffles
4.5 20 inch (508 mm) stainless steel manhole
4.6 Open dump

Connection to Aircraft

Standard Servicing Locations for an MD-80/DC-9 type aircraft (Lav Service is blue, Potable Water is red):

Degerm Lavatory Disinfectant and Deoderizor.

Mirabowl Q
Our premiere aircraft lav fluid. The only aircraft lavatory degerm, deodorizer, tank, bowl and pump cleaner that controls odors for up to fifteen hours. This product cleans recirculating pumps and filters, as well as flush rings and bowls. Mirabowl descales and removes sludge from holding tanks. As a result, maintenance costs on pump repair and replacement are reduced by up to 95%.

(note: Used in 55 gallon drums: )
55 gallon drums 7930-01-420-3593 MBQL01

Degerm Mixing procedures:

Degerm Chemical Mix
Note: Degerm chemical in quart bottles (liquid form). Mixture is ½ quart of liquid per tank (100gals.) of water.

Finally here is the servicing procedure:

Servicing Procedure

1. Position the “Waste Catch Bucket” under the lavatory service panel. Catch Bucket must be secured when transported and when placed on the ground.
2. Open lavatory service panel.
3. Remove the fill cap (#1) from the fill service port (#2). If fill cap is missing, notify proper personnel.
4. Release the handle (#3) and open the drain protective cap (#4).
5. Connect dump hose unit (#6) of the waste drain valve (#5).
6. Connect fill hose (#7) to fill port (#2).
7. Push the lever (#8) of the waste drain-valve actuator to open its internal flapper valve.
8. Pull and lock the control handle (#10) to open the holding tank-valve and continue tank drainage until the waste flow stops.
9. Release the control handle (#10).
10. Verify that waste has drained out of the aircraft by visually checking thru the drain hose. If uncertain as to the waste completely draining, check the lavatory from topside, for the presence of water by flushing the lavatory or by visually inspecting the tank by lowering the lavatory flapper. If verified that water is still in the tank, DO NOT INITIATE THE SERVICING PROCESS, contact maintenance or station management.
11. Flush the waste tank with four (4) gallons of designated ExpressJet approved de-germ water mix. Refer to chart. Make sure the fluid pressure is between a range of 35 - 50 psi.
12. Pull and lock the drain control handle (#10) to open the holding tank drain valve. Continue until the waste flow stops.
13. Release control handle (#10) after drainage has been completed.
14. Verify that the waste has drained out of the aircraft by visually checking thru the drain hose. If uncertain as to the waste completely draining, check the lavatory from topside, for the presence of water by flushing the lavatory or by visually inspecting the tank by lowering the lavatory flapper. If verified that water is still in the tank, DO NOT INITIATE THE SERVICING PROCESS, contact maintenance or station management.
15. Fill with two (2) gallons of ExpressJet approved degerm. Refer to chart. Make sure that the fluid pressure is between a range of 35 – 50 psi.
16. Disconnect the dump hose unit (#6) and fill hose (#7) from the aircraft. Wipe up all fluid present.
17. Close drain valve protective cap (#4) and the latch handle (#3) of the drain waste valve. Flapper valve will close automatically when cap is closed.
18. Install fill cap (#1) on fill port (#2). Ensure cap is properly sealed and not leaking. If leakage is observed, IMMEDIATELY contact Maintenance or station personnel.
19. Close waste service panel. Panel door will close only if the waste drain valve is properly closed.
20. Close lavatory service panel. Panel door will close only if the waste drain valve is properly closed. Close lavatory service panel.
21. Clean interior and exterior of lavatory service door.

That is the way it has been done from the beginning of the airlines to this day. It is not going to change any because it has to be standard across the world, for all airlines. Needless to say, that mechanic story is an internet hoax, and one of the first Chemtrail hoaxes to appear on the net.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Persistent contrails have been seen since 1921.

They have?

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem posting a few of the millions of photos, films and TV programs that show these "persistent contrails" between 1921 and 1998 when "Project Cloverleaf" began.

I mean, besides the typical debunker photos of WW II piston-engine bombers belching massive amounts of particulate exhaust.



[edit on 16-3-2009 by GoldenFleece]

Originally posted by Zaphod58

Originally posted by ChemBreather
I posted this one also on another thread, debuked due to the fact that the planes that showed high levels/abnormal trail lenghts etc. was not identified by the flight explorer, is a dumb argument, you can not seriously expect these planes being labeled 'Chem-Plane rt-122' in the database.

You also can't seriously expect them to list military flights on there either. That's like saying "We have a B-2 flying today. It's going to Afghanistan then back to Whiteman. Here, track it but don't tell anyone."

No, and I dont expect so either, but you are completely ignory the fact that they have abnormal test results..

For instance that the listed planes had trails in the time frame of 5secs to 25 minutes and showed in Flight explorer and did NOT fly in formation.

And that: Highly Persistent Trails from Unidentifiable Aircraft lasted from 4 to 6 hours and were unindentified and flew IN formation. That is proof that 'vitnesses' claiming to see 'huge planes flying in formation spraying chemtrails' are true,dont you think ?

The 2 questions I'd like to ask would be, why are "chemtrails" done when there are no clouds? There's nothing to seed. I grew up living in the flight pattern of O'Hare --out there playing baseball every summer day and admiring the planes over head. A contrail dissipates quickly and like you say, is done at high altitudes because it's a natural phenom. A chemtrail is done lower and spreads out. I have photos of chemtrails 30 minutes, an hour, 2 hours after the plane leaves.

When I was playing baseball, only those high altitude contrails were seen, not like today where chemtrails are at the lower alts. They're doing "something" differently --normal plane activity at the higher alts and something at those lower alts.

Then, why are they in "X" patterns on clear sunny days at low levels? Do you know the level of clearance you need to make a flight within minutes overlap a flight that just went through that area at those low levels? Also, on days when you see chemtrails, the flight patterns will change at O'Hare (or whatever airport you're nearby), so no commercial flights pass through the area in which the chemtrails appear.

Maybe there's nothing sinister to chemtrails --who knows maybe it's all for image mapping the globe or something, but they're doing something other than seeding, and it's not normal contrails and it started, I'd like to say in the mid-1990's or so, I'm not really sure. But it definitly has picked up the pace over the last 5 years, there is no doubt about that.

reply to post by defcon5


Nice responce Defcon , but your links dont exist.
Dosn't matter , just thought I'd say !!!

I hope you dont think I expected any one to believe the mechanic story, I knew it was 'anonymous source', and I said that when I posted it..
I wanted to see the response on the wicks part of the story....

I never put any weight on hearsay stories, I just put it in the back of my head for a later time if the subject should rise again, then I can cross refrense the stories.....

reply to post by ChemBreather


Of course they're flying in formation. They're military flights. Military flights fly in formation all the time. Tanker hauls (when a tanker is "dragging" fighters with them) also fly at different altitudes than normal flights, because of the air refueling portion of the mission. They want to keep them out of the way of regular commercial flights. If it's a tanker that's hitting a receiver that's passing through the area, they block off entire blocks of altitude, and the tanker "owns" that airspace.

Has anyone else noticed 'the usual suspects' that start these "there are no such thing as chemtrails"?

A bit strange how they keep repeating that lie over and over....

I think they hold onto the theory if you repeat a lie to the people long enough, they'll believe it.

Unbelievable these people that can post this propaganda here - probably effected by the unnatural chemicals in the atmosphere - and over the counter.

CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL PEOPLE, don't believe me? I don't care if you do.

wZn

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


Its not strange at all, its admirable.
I saulte Oz for being the voice of reason in a sea of screaming ignorance

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


But yet, with no proof except hearsay, you are telling everyone that they are spraying us for every reason from making us sick, to blocking global warming. You have never managed to show a single REAL sprayer aircraft except the ONE NKC-135 that sprays water on other planes. And you expect everyone to believe you. The biggest argument for the existance of chemtrails is "Look up! They look different than contrails!" I've been looking at contrails since I was a kid, and have never seen anything that looks different than a contrail.

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


Well if it is propaganda you should be able to debunk it right?

Christ, the hypocrisy is screaming in this thread.

Ozweatherman has put forward an argument with EVIDENCE to back it up.

All you chemheads have done is attack him personally. It says a lot when you attack the poster instead of their post.

If you are so certain he is a propagandist, then disprove his claims.

Good luck.

reply to post by GoldenFleece



Sure:
B-17 WWII
B-17 WWII


STS-036 February 28, 1990
STS-30 May 4, 1989
STS-30 May 4, 1989
STS-30 May 4, 1989
STS-27 December 2, 1988
STS-27 December 2, 1988
STS-09 November 28, 1983

I can keep this up all day long if need be...
So much for Operation Cloverleaf, eh?

reply to post by T.Smith


Almost as ignorant as people not knowing the real Lewis Carroll and what he was about - but that's off topic. Maybe for another discussion.

He'd deny as well.

wZn