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The Space Opera Working Thread

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posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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I just wanted to say:

I love you guys.


We're like some kind of little family on here... LOL

[edit on 18-7-2009 by mf_luder]




posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


Group Hug! (No pinching)...

hehehe

*Off to post my follow up to the plight of Chumley*...

peace



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 02:10 AM
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Beertender !

A round for all my friendsh.

Mache myn a dubble.

Hic. ***

"I luv u guysh too."

Badger stumbles off to find someplace to pass out...er..sleep.



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 02:22 AM
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Oh bother!
I'm sorry folks!

I didn't mean to push the *edit* button.

I'll leave my last post as it is - but - I'll have to edit it later.

Ugh, I hate it when that happens.

(Review screaming frog video)...

Sorry - work calls.



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 02:25 AM
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This edit was brought to you by the letter *F*.

(Sorry I hit the wrong button again)...




[edit on 18-7-2009 by silo13]



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 06:19 PM
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Thank you Masqua for allowing me to edit my "caveman drawings" post.


I hope you all enjoy the edit as much as I do.


Edited Post

[edit on 18-7-2009 by Studious]



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by Studious
Thank you Masqua for allowing me to edit my "caveman drawings" post.


I hope you all enjoy the edit as much as I do.


Edited Post

[edit on 18-7-2009 by Studious]


ROFLMAO! Top notch! Loved the Geico dig!

The original problem illustrated by your diagrams, which I needed to have a picture drawn for me about is, I think, in our alternating concepts of superluminal wormhole travel. I see it as a "folding" or "warping" of space by the wormholes, not as a linear progression of distance covered, as is apparently your model. In my ignorance, I thought that everyone understood it that way.

I'll try to make a picture in words of my concept, as I'm not all that well versed in computer art.

Two wormholes join two separate areas of space, some closer, some further. They do this by manipulating spacetime, and "folding" it so that two folds are brought together, like the folds of a blanket or towel. The folds may be "bridged" by a shorter distance occupied by the wormhole, one end on one fold, the other end on the other fold. "Balling up" spacetime would create numerous folds to "punch through", and an unscheduled drop-out could be along any one of them, in widely separated areas of normal space.

The "physical" separation of the "folds" can be a vast distance, but the length of the wormhole is governed by the strength of the generating field, which may be affected by intervening masses, such as stars, nebulae, and black holes, which do a gravitational distortion of spacetime on their own. This means a wormhole that covers a short distance may be longer than a wormhole that covers a greater distance in "real" space. Depends on the strength of the field, intervening masses, and the degree to which spacetime is warped to create the folds. That in turn would depend on energy expenditure.

So then, in my concept, a wormhole you enter "here" that leads to "there" may drop one out near another wormhole that leads to "WAY over there" in virtually any direction. Ship generated wormholes would have to account for the intervening masses, so that a trip to point X would not be linear, but could take one to "there", "way over there","there","over yonder" and "way up there" before arriving at the destination. This would be done in the interest of energy efficiency, to skirt the intervening masses that the engines would have to exert more force to counteract.

It's sort of convoluted, but I hope I made my concept clear enough to understand what's in my warped mind. When I saw your diagrams illustrating a linear progression, my jaw dropped (still have the bruise where my chin hit the desk), and I still wonder how your concept deals with the intervening masses. Probably with a huge expenditure of energy, which never entered my enfeebled mind.

I've insinuated on more then one occaision that I'm too old to think "straight".


Thus the discrepancy of our concepts, and why neno would be amazed that the Altair found the end-point so quickly. If Penelope had had to bounce around like that, she could have wound up "anywhere" when dropped out of hyperspace, and would be most difficult to detect, especially if they themselves didn't know just precisely where they were (as would be the case were they to just "drop out" anywhere along the fold), and had to take time to get a navigational "fix" on their location. Since there would be a vast volume of possible space to scan. Of course, Since NI found Penelope it would follow in his mind that anyone else finding them immediately thereafter would probably be somehow linked with NI.

Under my conception, there wouldn't be any running into one another along the route, since dropping out of hyperspace at random would require a whole new set of navigation solutions from the point of drop-out, and thus a completely different route.

Your illustrations did a great job of explaining your conception to me, much more so that my twisted verbal explanation is likely to do.


[edit on 2009/7/18 by nenothtu]



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 08:19 PM
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So I woke up behind this dumpster on the recreation deck.....

I thought I might need to sober up but naw, I'm headed back to the bar.

Wally, get a dash 10 warmed up!

We're going to visit the bikini clad bionic bimbos of the Budweiser Nebula.



[edit on 18-7-2009 by badgerprints]



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 11:49 PM
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Hey guys, been working on some other stuff lately and thought I would post some in the short stories forum.

Do me a favor and let me know what you think. If you'd let me know if you find any mistakes, I would appreciate it.


www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jul, 18 2009 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I know where the problem lies!

We are thinking of two separate but equally correct ideas that both hold the name "hyperspace."


Travel Generally speaking, the idea of hyperspace relies on the existence of a separate and adjacent dimension. When activated, the hyper drive shunts the starship into this other dimension, where it can cover vast distances in an amount of time greatly reduced from the time it would take in "normal" space. Once it reaches the point in hyperspace that corresponds to its destination in real space, it re-emerges.

In other words, some (or all) paths in hyperspace may have a travel-time less than the time it takes to traverse the "shortest-path" in normal space, defined above. The time it takes to travel in hyperspace is measured in the same way time is measured in normal space, unless the hyperspace is discontinuous. For example, the path in hyperspace may not be smooth but a sequence of points, and the time change from jumping from one point to another may be abrupt. In this case, add the time jumps. Some may be positive (jumps to the future), and some negative (jumps to the past), depending on how the hyperspace is defined.

Explanations of why ships can travel faster than light in hyperspace vary; hyperspace may be smaller than real space and therefore a star ship's propulsion seems to be greatly multiplied, or else the speed of light in hyperspace is not a barrier as it is in real space. Whatever the reasoning, the general effect is that ships traveling in hyperspace seem to have broken the speed of light, appearing at their destinations much more quickly and without the shift in time that the Theory of Relativity would suggest.

In much science fiction, hyper drive jumps require a considerable amount of planning and calculation, with any error carrying a threat of dire consequences. Therefore, jumps may cover a much shorter distance than would actually be possible so that the navigator can stop to "look around" -- take their bearings, plot their position, and plan the next jump. The time it takes to travel in hyperspace also varies. Travel may be instantaneous or may take hours, days, weeks or more. Some theories state that a route traveled for a long time may continuously stay open.

A different concept, sometimes also referred to as "hyperspace" and similarly used to explain FTL travel in fiction, is that the manifold of ordinary three-dimensional space is curved in four or more "higher" spacial dimensions (a "hyperspace" in the geometric sense; see hyper surface, tesseract, Flatland). This curvature causes certain widely separated points in three-dimensional space to nonetheless be "adjacent" to each other four-dimensionally. Creating an aperture in 4D space (a wormhole) between these locations can allow instantaneous transit between the two locations; a common comparison is that of a folded piece of paper, where a hole punched through two folded sections is more direct than a line drawn between them on the sheet. This idea probably arose out of certain popular descriptions of General Relativity and/or Riemannian manifolds, and may be the original form from which later concepts of hyperspace arose. This form often restricts FTL travel to specific "jump points".


(Emphasis added)

Source

The first four paragraphs mention one method. For simplicities sake I'll refer to that as the alternate dimension version.

The last paragraph describes a different concept that also carries the name "hyperspace." In that version wormholes are used.


I incorrectly assumed we all were using the concept of hyperspace as the alternate dimension version which is used on Stargate.

Stargate Source

(Stargate uses the "Alternate Dimension Version" probably because they already use the wormhole idea for the Stargates themselves and wanted something different for the ships.)

[edit on 19-7-2009 by Studious]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 12:48 AM
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We're actually using wormhole drives.

Maybe I should have explained my idea for that a little better than I did in the specs guide I wrote.

We are using the idea of how a wormhole functions, but instead of transporting you there instantly, it takes time to get from point A to point B and the reason for that, is for story purposes, so we can't just pop up wherever we want whenever we want.

I don't think I ever mentioned the words hyperspace in the collaborative posts I've made, nor did I use it in the specs guide. I'm not sure where 'hyperspace' entered the story.

Sorry if that was a fault of mine and it subsequently created an amount of confusion because of it.

files.abovetopsecret.com...

Excerpt:

Engines: Dual Super-Quad 51J FTL “Bender” Drives. These serve two purposes, they are use to move the vessel through space at sub-light speeds, such as impulse or thrusters. They are also used to power and sustain the XQ99 Wormhole Generators to move across vast distances of space.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


Oh sorry about that.


Though by the way we are writing this it seems more similar to the alternate dimension version of the term "hyperspace" than to wormholes.


This is because we don't arrive places instantaneously and we stopped traveling and arrived at the planet with the ruins.

A wormhole drive theoretically would provide instantaneous travel and you might not be able to drop out of it.

I say might because I'm not sure if something can drop out of a wormhole at any location but the other end. (Check this information as I can't say this with 100% certainty but it seems logical.)


These problems do not appear if we were using the alternate dimension concept of the term "hyperspace." This is because travel does not have to be instantaneous.

Also the alternate dimension version of the term "hyperspace" would allow a ship or other object to "drop out of hyperspace."


It's similar to, and this might not be the best description, lifting a piece off a game board. With the game piece representing the object traveling through hyperspace, the air above the board representing another dimension and the game board representing space itself.



The object (game piece) is transferred to another dimension. (is lifted into the air)

When the object moves through this other dimension it is not interacting with any objects in regular space. (when the game piece moves along through the air it is not interacting with any other game pieces on the board.)

If the object "drops out of hyperspace" it transfers, from the dimension it was traveling through, back to the dimension it came from. (The game piece is able to be dropped, from the air, as it travels and land back on the game board.)

[edit on 19-7-2009 by Studious]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 06:13 AM
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Not to add even more confusion (but it probably will) there are a couple other concepts that may be in play here as well.

"Wormholes" are similar to, if not the same as, "Einstein-Rosen bridges". It's my understanding, and I may be wrong, (because some of Einstein's concepts are counter-intuitive, thus heaping massive amounts of question marks upon my head) that can be visualized as "tunnels" through "hyperspace" connecting points in "real" space. That's where my idea of wormholes came from, and why they may be longer or shorter depending on "local" conditions, and may punch through more folds of "real" space than the start and end points.

Since I visualized them as tunnel-like, I didn't account for instantaneous travel through them, but more of a time-condensed travel. This entered my head, I reckon, because of the mention at various points of the story of how much "time" was being spent inside the wormholes (latest example: from the Planet of Ruins to Earth was a 2 hour trip). Since we've already established that unscheduled "drops" out of the wormholes left us lost in space a couple of times, my presumption was that the wormholes were travelling through multiple "folds" of space, and just dumped us out at the nearest one when the drives failed, but "nearest" was relative to what position the wormhole occupied in hyperspace, rather than "nearest" in the sense of 3 dimensional space. That tied in with the notion of "balling up" spacetime, so as to punch through multiple folds.

The other concept that may be in play is along the lines of the Albicuerre Warp Drive, in which a ship generates a "bubble" of hyperspace around itself, and an inner bubble of "real"space that the ship occupied inside that. The theory is that spacetime is "compressed" at the front of the bubble, and "expanded" at the rear of it, which propels the bubble "forward" through space at superluminal speeds, and of course the ship (being inside the bubble) goes right along with it. That would be a more linear (relative to 3d space) form of travel, and is a real theory as well. It was theorized by Miguel Albacuerre in the 1990's, and is similar to the concept generated for Star Trek. The Albacuerre concept doesn't make use of wormholes, but both ideas carry the notion of hyperspace as the means of circumventing Einstein's speed of light limit.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 07:02 AM
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A couple of clarifications on the "warrant" post:

The "Standard Date" is composed of the year (2320), and the "actual" date of the post it references - two digit month, two digit date, 4 digit time (24 hr format) - all strung together.

That was the way I used to date entries in my patrol activity notebook, which I used to keep track of events and details, some of which were not always entered into official reports. That way I had my own reference to fall back on for things like court dates and such. It creates a unique and sequentially progressive number for each entry, keyed to a specific moment. I had to use 4 digit years instead of 2 digit so that "99" would not be followed by "00" at the turn of the millenium. That would have messed up the sequence.

The release of the warrant "in the wild" on the Galactic Interwebs means that, while it was specifically meant for official UEF facilities, it's available to anyone with Galactic Interweb access. As an example, I use some military mapping programs that are available on "our" internet. The were developed and distributed by military facilities, to military users, but are unclassified (or were, anyhow, not sure now since they disappeared from Ft Leonard Wood's website, but are still available at the USNA website) and "in the wild", so available to anyone now with internet access. In like manner, the report is available, as unclassified, to any Opera characters (including Yydryl) with access to the Interwebs,

BTW, Studious, that "Galactic Interweb" concept that your character got the information on the gravity fluctuations from was nothing short of brilliant, and a logical extension of current technology into the future,


Like the character in the movie "Serenity" says, "they can't stop the wave, Mal". Once it's in the wild, it's out there. Even the Great Firewall of China can't block the internet.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
"Wormholes" are similar to, if not the same as, "Einstein-Rosen bridges". It's my understanding, and I may be wrong, (because some of Einstein's concepts are counter-intuitive, thus heaping massive amounts of question marks upon my head) that can be visualized as "tunnels" through "hyperspace" connecting points in "real" space. That's where my idea of wormholes came from, and why they may be longer or shorter depending on "local" conditions, and may punch through more folds of "real" space than the start and end points.


Do you mean that you believe a wormhole can pass through regular space into hyperspace, regular space and hyperspace again? Like a needle through thread.

If so I've never heard of that concept. I've only ever seen a wormhole described as a connection from one point in regular space to another passing through "hyperspace" inbetween.

The standard drawings of a wormhole only show a wormhole passing through hyperspace once.



Where a ship to travel multiple folds I would assume multiple wormholes would be required.



Originally posted by nenothtu
Since I visualized them as tunnel-like, I didn't account for instantaneous travel through them, but more of a time-condensed travel. This entered my head, I reckon, because of the mention at various points of the story of how much "time" was being spent inside the wormholes (latest example: from the Planet of Ruins to Earth was a 2 hour trip).


Every mention of the time it takes to pass through a wormhole I could find always mentions it as instantaneous travel. (Though they they never mention why.)


But during the trip and afterwards instantaneous communication and transport through the wormhole would be possible.

Source



Originally posted by nenothtu
Since we've already established that unscheduled "drops" out of the wormholes left us lost in space a couple of times, my presumption was that the wormholes were travelling through multiple "folds" of space, and just dumped us out at the nearest one when the drives failed, but "nearest" was relative to what position the wormhole occupied in hyperspace, rather than "nearest" in the sense of 3 dimensional space. That tied in with the notion of "balling up" spacetime, so as to punch through multiple folds.


I've never heard of multiple fold wormholes. It seems like an interesting concept. Could you point me to any source material so I could learn more?

[edit on 19-7-2009 by Studious]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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In theory, the longer the distance between points A and B, the more energy a wormhole has to consume to maintain the connection.

In a lot of science fiction, they get around this problem by generating what is in effect a "folded wormhole". Meaning that the generator produces one short range wormhole, the ship moves through it, and the generator produces another short range wormhole directly on the other side.

This is done so that the ship never actually leaves the wormhole series to exit into real-space. This is where the frilly term "hyperspace" comes from.

The theory being that a series of short range wormholes are much easier to produce than one super long range wormhole. Travel wouldn't be instantaneous, but it would be in the light-years-per-hour range.

Sorry I don't have any source material for this. I'd dig around, but I have somewhere to be. Hope it helps.

[edit on 19-7-2009 by SeekerOfAUTMN]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 12:12 PM
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My personal attempt at a visual concept of travelling through a wormhole. I doubt you could use that image in the Opera without some major CGI, but there it is anyways.




posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by SeekerOfAUTMN
 


I had thought it was supposed to be one long wormhole. Which would be impossible to fall out of. Because if the wormhole closed with something inside it, that object would destroyed.

But if it's short wormhole jumps that are strung together it works perfectly. Then it would be possible for the ship to have stopped at the ruins planet. Since it would not mean falling out of a wormhole. It would only involve exiting one of the short wormhole jumps, but not being able to enter the next wormhole in the series.

Thank you for the elaboration.


[edit on 19-7-2009 by Studious]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 08:32 PM
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Badger, put down the bottle. You've got a thread to write.

Nope. Nope nope nope.

Trfanslightwormholegenrsmdll.....uh. nope.

Worm hole? Worm. Mescal..? Tequila!

Tequila for everrbpody.

Pass the salt.

[edit on 19-7-2009 by badgerprints]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by Studious

Originally posted by nenothtu
"Wormholes" are similar to, if not the same as, "Einstein-Rosen bridges". It's my understanding, and I may be wrong, (because some of Einstein's concepts are counter-intuitive, thus heaping massive amounts of question marks upon my head) that can be visualized as "tunnels" through "hyperspace" connecting points in "real" space. That's where my idea of wormholes came from, and why they may be longer or shorter depending on "local" conditions, and may punch through more folds of "real" space than the start and end points.


Do you mean that you believe a wormhole can pass through regular space into hyperspace, regular space and hyperspace again? Like a needle through thread.


No, that was just my poor attempt at illustration, trying to show how a series of short wormholes would "line up" for a longer jump. They wouldn't actually line up straight like that. As seen from "normal" space, they would appear as a haphazard series of wormholes, one per spacetime "fold", but each would be routed so as to avoid (or in some cases make use of) the gravity wells of intervening masses in the distortion of spacetime required to make the "folds". This would, viewed from "normal" space, give the appearance of jumping to apparently random points between the initial entry, and the final exit at destination. "Balling up" spacetime to line the jumps up in a straight line like that was just for illustrative purposes. There wouldn't be enough energy in the universe, I think, to ball it all up at once like that.

By dropping out at the "nearest" fold, what I meant was the "closest" end of whichever wormhole the ship was in at the time of failure, either the next immediate "origin" of THAT wormhole, or the next "destination" of THAT wormhole (jump segment).

Of course to fall out of a wormhole in mid-transit, not at one end or the other, would drop a ship designed for "normal" space into the realm of hyperspace, most likely with decidedly untoward consequences for the ship and it's occupants.

I didn't mean to give the impression that a wormhole goes "through" normal space. Instead of "Start" and "end" points, I probably should have used "origin" and "destination", to distinguish between the start and end of each individual wormhole.



Where a ship to travel multiple folds I would assume multiple wormholes would be required.


Yeah, that's what I meant, but I didn't express it very well.



Every mention of the time it takes to pass through a wormhole I could find always mentions it as instantaneous travel. (Though they they never mention why.)


But during the trip and afterwards instantaneous communication and transport through the wormhole would be possible.

Source


That must involve some sort of exotic math I'm not familiar with. Unless a wormhole had a length of zero, and the traversing ship also had a length of zero, there would necessarily be some transit time involved, compounded with the time to compute the next jumps, and transit times for them.




Originally posted by nenothtu
Since we've already established that unscheduled "drops" out of the wormholes left us lost in space a couple of times, my presumption was that the wormholes were travelling through multiple "folds" of space, and just dumped us out at the nearest one when the drives failed, but "nearest" was relative to what position the wormhole occupied in hyperspace, rather than "nearest" in the sense of 3 dimensional space. That tied in with the notion of "balling up" spacetime, so as to punch through multiple folds.


I've never heard of multiple fold wormholes. It seems like an interesting concept. Could you point me to any source material so I could learn more?


I see how that was misleading now. I didn't express it very well. It wasn't a single wormhole through mutiple folds, but rather multiple wormholes from/to multiple folds. That's where the (bad) illustration of balling up spacetime fit in, to attempt to show the haphazard appearance from the viewpoint of "normal" space.

At the risk of throwing more mud in the water, think of it like this: You take a sheet of paper, and ball it up. You then punch a hole through the middle of it. While it's still balled up (simulating hyperspace), it looks like a single hole. When you unball it, and flatten it out (Simulating normal space) you see that from that view, it's multiple holes, in an apparently random spread, and unless you numbered them as they were punched, you can't even tell what order they were punched in.

Sorry these explanations of my concepts are so inadequate. I feel like I'm trying to explain advanced physics concepts, and all I have under my belt is an advanced Budweiser degree.



[edit on 2009/7/19 by nenothtu]



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