It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Public co-ed bathrooms? Huh?

page: 4
0
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 09:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Rape requires an inclination and opportunity. Both of those are enhanced when a man is near a woman who is sexually available.

A rapist outside the bathroom, is no safer than a rapist inside the bathroom.



But, like I said, forceable rape at gun point is not the only way for a man to violate a woman. There are men who have all kinds of weird fixations, like a urination fixation.

Firstly, a man watching a woman pee is not raping the woman. So please don't equate paraphilias with violent sexual deviants.

Secondly, a man who wishes to see a woman pee, isn't going to stand in the open to watch, since it would make it obvious and stop the woman from peeing. The voyeur will be hidden and wouldn't need to be in the restroom.



Remind me what is wrong with seperate bathrooms please?



There is nothing "wrong" with separate bathrooms, but this issue is addressing transgendered people who are in mid transition and don't necessarily belong in one or the other.

I still wonder where TGs were being persecuted for using the "wrong" restroom in the first place, I don't recall a recent story about such a thing anyway.

[edit on 3/15/2009 by eNumbra]




posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:30 PM
link   
reply to post by eNumbra
 



You keep mentioning rape, which is a straw man argument. Maybe some women don't like to be watched on the toilet? It's not rape but it's still a violation.

Some men have a fixation with listening or even smelling a woman while she's using the bathroom.

Actually, you'd never know -- after having walked by a few women some guy might very well develop the urge to just stand there and watch. A voyeur would need to enter and exit the bathroom during operating hours to set up a vantage point. Ostensibly, he would be witnessed doing so by either a patron or staff.

Until someone is fully the new sex, he/she has not changed sexes. Without having both a penis and a vagina at the same time, there's no such thing as "in between sexes." Gimme a break.

There are plenty of stories of transgendered getting in trouble for being in the wrong bathroom.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by mystiq
Women do not necessarily feel safe around many men, and they should not have them in the bathrooms, when a women may be alone and in a vulnerable position. This is inviting violence against women, something women who have experienced, would never feel comfortable with the idea that a man could walk in when she alone. I know what I'm talking about and this bill has to be terminated. In fact, I immediatley suspect that the people behind this are actually hoping to increase violence agaisnt women, because surely they couldn't be missing so many spark plugs.


You fems want equality or not.???



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:55 PM
link   

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You keep mentioning rape, which is a straw man argument.

Oh I'm sorry, was rape not first mentioned by another poster? and then by you as well, you know, right around the time you called another member "Chester the Molester"? I mean, I see it in the post of yours that I quoted I guess It must not have been you.



Maybe some women don't like to be watched on the toilet? It's not rape but it's still a violation.

This is as much of a straw man as the possibility of rape. You want to vilify the unisex toilet based upon the idea of voyeurism despite the fact that it already happens as it is.

Get rid of crappy inch thick aluminum walled stalls for floor to ceiling locking doors and it won't be any more of a problem.



Some men have a fixation with listening or even smelling a woman while she's using the bathroom.

Loiterers can be ejected, simple as that. Once again this issue is about the transgendered use of restrooms. You are jumping to deny it because a few pervs could horn in on the action. Sick, yet fascinatingly irrelevant. Deviants exist regardless. The idea of letting a TG use the bathroom they wish will not allow men to loiter in a restroom sniffing women's makings. also, see my solution above.



Actually, you'd never know -- after having walked by a few women some guy might very well develop the urge to just stand there and watch. A voyeur would need to enter and exit the bathroom during operating hours to set up a vantage point. Ostensibly, he would be witnessed doing so by either a patron or staff.
One doesn't just develop the urge to watch a woman pee because he passed them on the street. Could a voyeur plant a small camera? sure, but so could they in any bathroom. In the coming economic problems what you should be worried about is women planting bugs in women's stalls and selling the footage on the internet. Males peeping on women as they pee is not the end of the road and is probably the least likely of sources of the problem. Besides that a man loitering around a restroom unisex or otherwise is obviously either having gastrointestinal problems or up to no-good. Which could easily be reported to an authority.



Until someone is fully the new sex, he/she has not changed sexes. Without having both a penis and a vagina at the same time, there's no such thing as "in between sexes." Gimme a break.

Research what happens during the hormone therapy part of a sex change. In between may not have been the best choice of words, but how else would you describe a TG that has everything BUT a vagina.



There are plenty of stories of transgendered getting in trouble for being in the wrong bathroom.

In that case there are plenty of stories of Alien contact. And I can site sources.

[edit on 3/15/2009 by eNumbra]



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by eNumbra
Oh I'm sorry, was rape not first mentioned by another poster? and then by you as well, you know, right around the time you called another member "Chester the Molester"? I mean, I see it in the post of yours that I quoted I guess It must not have been you.

I mentioned other issues besides rape.

What he said was disgusting. Maybe the two of you have something in common. You can start with your dislike of "prudishness" and work from there. Post wedding pics!


This is as much of a straw man as the possibility of rape. You want to vilify the unisex toilet based upon the idea of voyeurism despite the fact that it already happens as it is.

Get rid of crappy inch thick aluminum walled stalls for floor to ceiling locking doors and it won't be any more of a problem.

Not a straw man

So unisex bathrooms will help deal with problems of voyeurism? What is your point?


Loiterers can be ejected, simple as that. Once again this issue is about the transgendered use of restrooms. You are jumping to deny it because a few pervs could horn in on the action. Sick, yet fascinatingly irrelevant. Deviants exist regardless. The idea of letting a TG use the bathroom they wish will not allow men to loiter in a restroom sniffing women's makings. also, see my solution above.

How often do they check stalls for loiterers? How many public bathrooms have attendants?

That's what I said -- that a man with a penis should use the men's bathroom. If he wants to fix his hair and makeup, then tough noogies.


One doesn't just develop the urge to watch a woman pee because he passed them on the street.

That's not what I said. Misquote.


Research what happens during the hormone therapy part of a sex change. In between may not have been the best choice of words, but how else would you describe a TG that has everything BUT a vagina.

A man doesn't magically make his penis fall off by taking hormones.


In that case there are plenty of stories of Alien contact. And I can site sources.

I wasn't being facetious, there really are news articles. There are news articles of boys not being allowed to accompany their mothers.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:37 PM
link   
reply to post by TravelerintheDark
 


You must be a male.

And you must not of ever had a stalker.

Trust me, there are a lot of creeps out there.

Men don't care however. When I worked for the park service I had the lovely job of painting the restroom. The men's side was quite entertaining. Took me quite a while too leaving all the time.

But when I was on a step ladder, it was amazing how many guys came in with pants half down already, looked at me and said, don't bother and used the urinal. I was trapped. LOL

But it not just about "privates" women do have monthlies and we would like to keep that fact to ourselves.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

What he said was disgusting. Maybe the two of you have something in common. You can start with your dislike of "prudishness" and work from there. Post wedding pics!
Resorting to insults is a sad turn of events.


So unisex bathrooms will help deal with problems of voyeurism? What is your point?
That's not what I said. Misquote.



A man doesn't magically make his penis fall off by taking hormones.
If a penis is all that defines a man, and a vagina all that defines a woman, what, pray tell is John Bobbit?



I wasn't being facetious, there really are news articles. There are news articles of boys not being allowed to accompany their mothers.

That's interesting, but the intent behind that little remark was to make you realize that without a link you have no proof. A little boy not being allowed into a women's stall with his mother would be a very different issue. I don't doubt that the stories exist. But I find it more likely that prejudice would more likely exist with a male transitioning into a women in a men's room than it would in a womens.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by eNumbra
reply to post by mystiq
 


A can of mace, a gun or a good kick to the jewels will deter a rapist.
[edit on 3/15/2009 by eNumbra]


Gonna have to disagree with you there. If that is all it took, there would be a lot less reported rapes.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:43 PM
link   
reply to post by eNumbra
 


Because someone else is gonna notice if a man walks into a women's restroom. If I was standing outside, I woudl certainly notice.

Now if he is gonna have access, no one is gonna bat an eye.

Thirdly, mothers tend to take children into the restroom with them. You really want any creep using the same restaurant as the mom and the children? it is't just about grown women.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by nixie_nox]



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:45 PM
link   
In our area, they have started with a few family restrooms. where anyone can enter and it is a big changing area. It is big and roomy for all the kids.

This may be the way to go.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by nixie_nox

Originally posted by eNumbra
reply to post by mystiq
 


A can of mace, a gun or a good kick to the jewels will deter a rapist.
[edit on 3/15/2009 by eNumbra]


Gonna have to disagree with you there. If that is all it took, there would be a lot less reported rapes.

At the risk of sounding incredibly callous, if the rapist doesn't leave with bleeding wounds and a gouged out eye, they didn't fight back hard enough.

Yes, some will simply freeze, playing dead is a popular defense in the animal kingdom. Unfortunately it will not work on rapists.

I already know I've overstayed my time in this thread, so I'll leave on a more conclusive note.

I don't think there should be unisex bathrooms. I however, would not be bothered by a TG using the same restroom I did. I apologize to any I've offended with any previous statements and take my leave.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by TravelerintheDark
 


You must be a male.

And you must not of ever had a stalker.

Trust me, there are a lot of creeps out there.

Men don't care however. When I worked for the park service I had the lovely job of painting the restroom. The men's side was quite entertaining. Took me quite a while too leaving all the time.

But when I was on a step ladder, it was amazing how many guys came in with pants half down already, looked at me and said, don't bother and used the urinal. I was trapped. LOL

But it not just about "privates" women do have monthlies and we would like to keep that fact to ourselves.


Yes, I state my maleness in my other posts. No secret there.

A stalker? Depends on how you define it, as in how deeply they must stalk to be officially a stalker. I've known some 'creeps' in my time. But I would be willing to bet that a lot of them are more turned on by the fact that they are entering forbidden territory in a woman's restroom

As far as your monthlies, I'm sorry but the secrets out. I've known about them for quite a while


Actually, I do care. I'm not a fan of public restrooms at all, no matter who's in them. My point is simply that there needn't be a law that prevents someone from doing something they need to do because of gender.

I'll put it this way, if the men's room is out of order what are my choices? Use the women's or find a bush. Either way I'm breaking some kind of law. Seems unfair for either sex. And I'd rather not get tagged as a sex offender on a public indecency charge because I have to urinate.

I know people like to keep their bathroom business to themselves, I do, but they are public restrooms. The public as a whole should be free to use them.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by TravelerintheDark]



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 12:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by eNumbra
Resorting to insults is a sad turn of events.

Resorting to sarcasm doesn't make you better.


That's not what I said. Misquote.

I asked what was your point.


If a penis is all that defines a man, and a vagina all that defines a woman, what, pray tell is John Bobbit?

A tranny's worst nightmare, apparently.

John Bobbit was born a male, never declared himself to be a female, and shortly had his penis re-attached.


That's interesting, but the intent behind that little remark was to make you realize that without a link you have no proof. A little boy not being allowed into a women's stall with his mother would be a very different issue. I don't doubt that the stories exist. But I find it more likely that prejudice would more likely exist with a male transitioning into a women in a men's room than it would in a womens.

Wow, so all I have to do is type in "transgender public bathroom"
Big whoop
No. The stories were about mf trannies hanging out in the ladies' room. I highly doubt that someone would inform on a woman in the men's room.



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 12:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark

Yes, I state my maleness in my other posts. No secret there.

A stalker? Depends on how you define it, as in how deeply they must stalk to be officially a stalker. I've known some 'creeps' in my time. But I would be willing to bet that a lot of them are more turned on by the fact that they are entering forbidden territory in a woman's restroom

Stalking is simply stealthful pursuit.


I'll put it this way, if the men's room is out of order what are my choices? Use the women's or find a bush. Either way I'm breaking some kind of law. Seems unfair for either sex. And I'd rather not get tagged as a sex offender on a public indecency charge because I have to urinate.

Most, if not all, establishments allow everyone to use one bathroom when the other is out of order.


I know people like to keep their bathroom business to themselves, I do, but they are public restrooms. The public as a whole should be free to use them.

"Public bathrooms" often exist within private establishments. As for municipal and state bathrooms, like bathrooms in parks and government buildings, there are seperate bathrooms for males and females, based on societal expectations. I can't see any public benefit to integrating them.



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 01:13 AM
link   
There are coed public restrooms in some places in Japan. I experienced that first hand at Meiji Shrine in Tokyo. It had separate entrances for men and women, but led to a common bathroom area.

I walked in just in time to see a Japanese lady squating over the "toilet". They aren't western style flush toilets. Bascially a ceramic hole in the floor. I was a bit surprised to say the least.
(about the Japanese lady, not the "toilets")

The mentality there in that situation, is that if you don't make eye contact, then that person doesn't "exist". But we both "did our thing" and went on our respective ways. I chalked it up to another cultural experience.



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 02:55 AM
link   
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


What I find more interesting than the topic itself is the vehemence with which people object to the idea. And what's most interesting to me is that it's purely cultural, nothing ingrained in the human psyche as a whole as evidenced by the fact that many different cultures have different toilet habits.

Truth is, if they never integrate bathrooms, you'll never hear me complain. Despite the fact that I see no real value in maintaining separate facilities. Except potentially one which I'm not sure is valuable at all, and that is that with a unisex bathroom, no one will take notice or question a man going into the room after a woman. But this is why I question the value of this particular: Isn't the idea that we need to maintain the separation rather police-minded? That we in some way need to protect ourselves from ourselves?

Those are sincere questions, because the privacy issue can be addressed rather easily. The other biggest complaint is that this will encourage some sort of sexual deviancy. Why are we so quick as a society to assume such a thing? Why do we as human beings give others, and ourselves, so little credit?

For some the answer will likely involve statistical data, but if anyone wishes to present that, I'd be more interested in seeing data from around the world as well the particulars of their systems of public facilities.

I could go on about how sexual deviancy is actually encouraged in an environment where the offender is required to take a bigger risk, where the actions leading up the offending behavior are in some instances more enticing and exciting than the offense itself. And also that rape is not what I'm talking about when I refer to sexual deviancy. That's a whole other monster. But what it boils down to for me at the moment is this. We are a society that seeks not simply to suppress the physical actions but very thoughts and potential of deviancy based on ideals held within our culture, religions and government as a whole. The problem is the majority of us are given to 'impure' thoughts. Does that make people more apt to act on them? Given that our crime rates aren't higher than they are, I find it unlikely. This is where people's derision of 'prudish' and 'puritanical' thought control comes in.

Frankly I see it as counter-productive. Thoughts can't be overcome. Actions can. And attempting to suppress thought only increases the pattern of thought, at least in some people. These thoughts exist for a reason and that reason is not purely to create action. Suppression leads to something I'd call 'mental revolt' which leads to actions that the perpetrator feels are beyond their control. As I see it, it isn't that we don't exert enough control; but that we attempt to exert too much.



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 02:59 AM
link   
All I can say is that sometimes I wish that bathrooms were co-ed in airports, sport/concert venues and shopping malls!
As a woman, it is frustrating to have to wait in long lines because the ladies' restroom does not have enough stalls, and then look over to the mens' bathroom to see it almost empty.



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 03:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by mystiq
Many women do not feel safe in the presence of men. Bathrooms are small unprotected places, and no woman should have to be forced to feel that she should hold of using a bathroom or put herself at further risk from a stranger.
People who don't understand, either have never been in a situation or are the wrong gender to feel this way. Many women know what I'm talking about.


You make a lot of comments about violence against women, but you conveniently overlook the other possibility. A transgendered person (Male to Female in this case) who is mid-transition will most likely not appear completely feminine. They will most likely be dressing as a woman as it is essentially required during transition and, if having been on hormone replacement therapy, have lost a good bit of muscle tone. What does this mean? Well, they will not be as strong as your average man. While they still have a penis, transgendered male to females typically take a strict regiment of androgen blockers (to suppress masculine characteristics) and estrogen supplements (to enhance feminine secondary sexual characteristics).

Unfortunately, we live in a world where there are a lot of bigots out there who don't understand that it just might not be safe for this person to use the men's room. They may find themself alone in a bathroom with some bigot who decides that this "tranny fag" doesn't deserve to live.

Or let's say that they DO pass for a woman by this time, but have not had the final operation yet (it is EXTREMELY expensive). It's going to draw a lot of attention when she walks into the men's room. Might even have someone try to rape her. Judging by the limited view you've demonstrated so far, you're probably thinking "Oh, they'll try to rape her, see she has a penis, and let her go." That's sadly not the way it usually goes. What really happens is usually the rapist is so enraged that his quarry is not a real woman that he proceeds to beat and sometimes kill this poor, innocent individual.

So before you start throwing around your misinformation, try to look at the situation from multiple viewpoints.

I don't think anyone sponsoring this law is planning on making it legal for any man to walk into the women's restroom. What it is designed to do is make it safer for trans people to use the restroom.



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 03:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
I would believe that the issue with the transgendered is that they are required as part of the course of their transition to live as the opposite sex before their final procedure which, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, is the procedure which alters their genitalia. That would include using the restroom that matches their transition as opposed to their physical characteristics.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by TravelerintheDark]


While it is not a requirement in ALL cases, most endocrinologists will not even let a transgender peson start on hormone therapy until they have lived as their chosen sex for a year. And even when they do get on hormone therapy, it can still be years before they're able to afford the final surgery. Hormone therapy = $50/mo. Sexual Reassignment Surgery = $25,000-$30,000. Not everyone can immediately drop that kind of money. In fact, some male to female transgendered folk choose to not have the final surgery done, instead opting for an orchiectomy (much less expensive.)



posted on Mar, 16 2009 @ 08:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by Terapin
It is sad really, that so many people are prudish


That is offensive and condescending, and typical of people with questionnable motives.
[edit on 15-3-2009 by vcwxvwligen]



A prude is a person who is described as being concerned with decorum or propriety. They may be perceived as being uncomfortable with sexuality and nudity.


My full statement was that it is sad that so many people are prudish about their plumbing.
There is nothing offensive about that statement. Modesty is a LEARNED behavior that is often cultural. In many parts of the world, this is not an issue and people have no problem what so ever with unisex or co-ed bathrooms. As was mentioned earlier by another poster, in Japan, co-ed bathrooms are not unheard of, and Japan is one of the most modest societies in the world.

That you question my motives, simply reflects your personal insecurities with the subject. I don't take offense with your point of view. I understand it is a learned human behavior. That doesn't mean that it is not prudish in nature.

There are men who can not urinate if there is someone in the stall next to them. This is a behavioral reflex that develops from being overly self conscious. Some people, when they are totally alone in their own home, will instinctively close the bathroom door, despite the fact that there is no one else in the building and the outside doors are locked. It is a need to define territory due to insecurity. The Peace Corps has a list of questions about cultural rules for bathroom behavior one should learn when living in another nation, as it varies greatly depending on culture. In the US if you go to a health club that has a sauna, some clothing, such as a swim suit or a towel wrap, is commonly worn, and co-ed saunas are quite rare. In Europe, saunas are commonly both co-ed and clothing free. When I was in Europe, even the changing rooms were co-ed. Although there was the option of private stalls, they were not used very much. I have also been to places where co-ed showers were not uncommon.

The concern about being "modest" in front of others is most definitely a learned behavior often with cultural context. While some are insecure with their own bodies, others have no problems with the issue. The issue of insecurity with ones body seems to arises most often in the US. Interestingly, in the US it is fine to show horrendous violence against another individual on Television, but heaven forbid that an uncovered breast is shown.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join