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Biblical Inconsistencies: and the poisoning of rationalism.

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posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:14 AM
As many seem to be poking holes in Evolution and stating those holes represent fact, I thought it only fair we be allowed to do the same. In questioning do these catastrophic holes within religious text point toward facts that religion is indeed nothing but the creation of man?

Although a few contradictions merely point toward possible errors upon printing or writing of the texts, this amount would certainly make any court think twice as to whether the theory of the bible being a creation of many is correct. That is if they felt they could continue upon stating this of course.

Now, as holes are so often used on these forums as if to suggest we can summarise from them as if they where fact, I would like to hear from you what these contradictions bring you to surmise from them.

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."
GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.
GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.
1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek.

EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies.
EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor.

EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians.
EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils.
EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed.
EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback.

EX 20:4 God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever.
EX 25:18 God enjoins the making of two graven images.

JS 10:38-40 Joshua himself captured Debir.
JG 1:11-15 It was Othniel, who thereby obtained the hand of Caleb's daughter, Achsah.

1SA 9:15-17 The Lord tells Samuel that Saul has been chosen to lead the Israelites and will save them from the Philistines.
1SA 15:35 The Lord is sorry that he has chosen Saul.
1SA 31:4-7 Saul commits suicide and the Israelites are overrun by the Philistines.

1SA 15:7-8, 20 The Amalekites are utterly destroyed.
1SA 27:8-9 They are utterly destroyed (again?).
1SA 30:1, 17-18 They raid Ziklag and David smites them (again?).

1SA 16:19-23 Saul knew David well before the latter's encounter with Goliath.
1SA 17:55-58 Saul did not know David at the time of his encounter with Goliath and had to ask about David's identity.

1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath with a slingshot.
1SA 17:51 David killed Goliath (again?) with a sword.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by MrAnonUK]

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:14 AM
1SA 31:4-6 Saul killed himself by falling on his sword.
2SA 1:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite.
2SA 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines on Gilboa

1KI 3:12 God made Solomon the wisest man that ever lived, yet ....
1KI 11:1-13 Solomon loved many foreign women (against God's explicit prohibition) who turned him to other gods (for which he deserved death).

1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness.
1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light.

1KI 16:23 Omri became king in the thirty-first year of Asa's reign and he reigned for a total of twelve years.
1KI 16:28-29 Omri died, and his son Ahab became king in the thirty- eighth year of Asa's reign. (Note: Thirty-one through thirty-eight equals a reign of seven or eight years.)

PS 10:1 God cannot be found in time of need. He is "far off."
PS 145:18 God is near to all who call upon him in truth.

PS 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer.
PS 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help.

PS 58:10-11 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance.
PR 24:16-18 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles.

PS 78:69, EC 1:4, 3:14 The earth was established forever.
PS 102:25-26, MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33, HE 1:10-11, 2PE 3:10 The earth will someday perish.

PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

JE 34:4-5 Zedekiah was to die in peace.
JE 52:10-11 Instead, Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die.

DN 5:1 (Gives the title of "king" to Belshazzar although Belshazzar was actually the "viceroy.")

DN 5:2 (Says that Nebuchadnezzar was the father of Belshazzar, but actually, Nebonidus was the father of Belshazzar.) (Note: Some versions attempt to correct this error by making the verse say that Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar.)

MT 1:20-23, LK 1:26-33 An angel announces to Joseph and/or Mary that the child (Jesus) will be "great," the "son of the Most High," etc., and ....
MT 3:13-17, MK 1:9-11 The baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the most extraordinary happenings, yet ....
MK 3:21 Jesus' own relatives (or friends) attempt to constrain him, thinking that he might be out of his mind, and ....
MK 6:4-6 Jesus says that a prophet is without honor in his own house (which certainly should not have been the case considering the Annunciation and the Baptism).

MT 1:23 He will be called Emmanuel (or Immanuel).
MT 1:25 Instead, he was called Jesus.

MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John's baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel.
MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah.

MT 3:12, 13:42 Hell is a furnace of fire (and must therefore be light).
MT 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 Hell is an "outer darkness" (and therefore dark).

MT 5:16 Good works should be seen.
MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret.

MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.
MT 11:22-24, LK 10:13-15 Jesus curses the inhabitants of several cities who are not sufficiently impressed with his mighty works.
MT 21:19, MK 11:12-14 Jesus curses a fig tree when it fails to bear fruit out of season.

MT 7:1-2 Do not judge.
MT 7:15-20 Instructions for judging a false prophet.

MT 10:1-8 Jesus gives his disciples the power to exorcise and heal...
MT 17:14-16 (Yet) the disciples are unable to do so.

MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men. (Fear God only.)
MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:15 AM
MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.
MT 16:23 Jesus calls Peter [a] "Satan" and "a hindrance," and accuses him of being on the side of men rather than that of God.

MT 20:23, MK 10:40 Jesus responds that it is not his to give.
MT 28:18, JN 3:35 All authority has been given to Jesus.

JN 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true.
JN 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true.

JN 5:38-47 Men have a choice as to whether or not to receive Jesus.
JN 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father.

JN 7:38 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (i.e., the OT).
(No such statement is found in the OT.)

JN 13:36 Peter asks Jesus where he is going.
JN 14:5 Thomas does the same.
JN 16:5 Jesus says that none of them have asked him where he is going.

JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas.
JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period.

JN 17:12 Mentions a "son of perdition" as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT).
(Note: There is no "son of perdition" mentioned in the OT.)

AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion heard the voice but saw no one.
AC 22:9 They saw a light but did not hear a voice.

AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion stood.
AC 26:14 They fell to the ground.

AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia.
AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway.

AC 20:35 Quotes Jesus as having said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive." (No such statement of Jesus is found elsewhere in the Bible.)

RO 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law.
RO 4:15 Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).

RO 2:13 Doers of the law will be justified.
RO 3:20, GA 3:11 They will not be justified.

All of the above, and twice the amount can be found here. No credit is due to myself, it should also be noted that I have only listed contradiction that appear from the same texts, this is only scratching the service in comparison to if you was to compare different writings of the same texts.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:31 AM
That is in total 54 contradictions from the same texts, now I know had god spoken to me or I had been spoken to of the word of this lord I certainly would not make so many mistakes.

Surely misquoting the words of your own god would be a grave mistake that any religious person would look to avoid, unless ofcourse it was just written and thought out with the hope of controlling humanity and conjuring explanations for the creation of mankind.

So even if you feel these catastrophic mistakes can be explained away, haven't the religious circles that had written these texts done their lord a great injustice?

[edit on 14-3-2009 by MrAnonUK]

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:41 AM

Logical fallacies of every conceivable kind are much in evidence in apologetic literature written in defense of the Bible inerrancy doctrine, but few are more evident than the fallacy of poisoning the well. This fallacy occurs when a debater figuratively offers an audience the choice of drinking from his "untainted" well or from others that he has unfairly contaminated. "You can believe Jones and the atheistic philosophy he embraces," a preacher strapped for evidence to support his inerrancy belief might proclaim, "or you can believe God and his word." Many in the audience may not even know what "atheistic philosophy" stands for, but they know that it has to be something bad. Haven't they heard it condemned enough by preachers like the one in our example? So they fall for the trick and opt to drink from the "untainted well of God's word." They certainly don't want to be caught sympathizing with atheistic philosophy.

The poisoned-well fallacy can be a composite of many logical flaws, but it almost always includes at least two: argumentum ad hominem and begging the question. Our hypothetical preacher, for example, has declared, "You can believe Jones and his atheistic philosophy," (argumentum ad hominem, attacking the opposition rather than his argument), "or you can believe God and his word," (begging the question, assuming rather than proving major claims, i.e., God exists and the Bible is his word). As far as actual proof of his claim is concerned, the preacher has proven nothing, but he has probably persuaded a lot of people already predisposed to his position to remain sympathetic to it. Persuasive techniques like this can be effective in the hands of demagogical preachers more interested in obtaining converts than establishing truth.

The final missing paragraph/s can be found here along with the persons that should be accredited to this well written argument.

Mod Edit:IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS.Please review this link

[edit on 14-3-2009 by GAOTU789]

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:17 AM
I'm under the impression that you think anti-evolution = pro-bible? This is not at all correct. I would say that those who foster the bible off on people also foster evolution off on people.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:50 AM
reply to post by ReelView

The impression you state is correct, given how the debate that has raged over many many years you could question that is beyond me.

It is clear, many but not all pro biblical people would be anti evolution, simply look through the history of the theory of evolution on ANY source and you would see this. What an abstract comment you laid down, nice thinking their mate.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 12:35 PM
I agree that there are contradictions in the Bible, but these aren't it. It's a better idea to quote those passages directly instead of inaccurately editorializing them.

Rejecting the Church and Christianity doesn't logically prove that God is false.

That phrase "poisoning" of rationalism is an oxy-moron.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 01:22 PM
I personally fail to see why representatives of major religions fought with theory of evolution. It did not contradict with anything. By the way - Christianity had just accepted it,and if they did it a century earlier (just like with Earth not in the middle of the universe thing) that this struggle had hurt them much less.
But this is general rant.
On a more "thready" note - there is a discussion on problematic spots from day 0. A lot of theologians fought with each other and then with secular opponents. You can find answer given to all those issues and others. Of course you personally might find them not satisfactory. But it was discussed. Nothing new under the Sun after all.
How about "there is no "earlier" or "later" in the Torah"? Go and argue with that...
And tons of similar answers.
My personal opinion of bible critique school greatly diminished when i read that some historian claimed that number of war chariots that king of Israel had as part of anti-Assyrian coalition and its position as a leader in it was way too much for such a small state as described in the same book and could never have happened. I actually reed it few hours after reading a newspaper discussing modern Israeli air-force, its relative strength and quality for such a small country. So it all was pretty funny.
Person arguing now against it is always an underdog simply because person/people who wrote it were much closer to that time and new better what really happened. Not that they were correct. Simply even if they were wrong, they were surely less wrong then modern critiques are.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 02:18 PM
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

I've actually come across many topics in my short time of looking, before it had never been of any substantial interest for me and really still isn't , in my humble opinion most good people will just seek their own truths and live life happily.

Perhaps in hindsight given into the constant and all too often baseless knocking faced in our direction, primarily from Christians this thread was born through retaliation. I'll keep this thread alive though even if it just by myself and find theory’s that counteract the continued threads aimed against evolutionists. Ultimately building on points I’d consider important.

All so often evolutionist are simply discussing their beliefs and not even considering religion, yet it is the vast majority of the time religious believers that seem to hold an irresistible urge to knock any belief system other than their own.

Unfortunately I subscribe to the eye for an eye policy to a large extent. Hence, if my opinions are being knocked I’ll look for reasonable arguements to counteract their beliefs just as some do mine, it’s only fair.

Very childish almost, but it is in my mind purely to counteract the constant bombardment sent in our direction, just we have a leg to stand by being able to give literal factual evidence, and highlight the lack of for religion.

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 02:34 PM

I know you've been waiting with baited breath for my response to this thread, since it was probably our conversation that made you post it. I knew what you were up to.

Have you ever actually read the Bible? I'm curious. Because most of these points are obviously not contradiction to any who have read it.

Pick any 10 points that you have and I'll try to answer them for you (not that you'll believe me anyway). Make sure you pick the hardest ones. Although you won't know which are the hardest to explain, I do though.

I'd do them all but that would take awhile. I can't just copy my answers from a website, like you did your points.

Note: Arguing against a Theory has nothing to do with religious beliefs, plenty of Scientists think the theory has too many holes too. Where in ANY of the threads about Evolution did you see me trying to convert someone to my beliefs? Yet I see plenty that call us idiots and fools, etc, for having our beliefs. All of my questions/statements about Evolution have been from a scientific view.

Proverb:15:21: Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 08:27 PM

Originally posted by ReelView
I'm under the impression that you think anti-evolution = pro-bible?

Let's be honest, most of the time it is.
Most people who continually talk bad about evolution do so because it directly contradicts the Bible (if you take it literally, that is).

It's just statistics...

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 09:14 AM
reply to post by B.A.C.

I understand you cannot perhaps wholeheartedly and blindly believe me, but prior to posting previously I had no hidden agenda or motive, but you are correct... it was in part your writings that prompted me lay down these contradictions, although that is true your writings alone would not be nearly enough. The continual bombardment in our direction largely from religious peoples and very frequently is the reason.

As we (or at least you have) have already gathered that I would not be able to conclude your answers as being rational, I should move onto posing a question to you from our side of the fence. Please would you try to find other issues in life that non religious peoples cannot find rational, besides religion related and issues that involve blind faith? (Surmised; can you find any issues non blind faith believers will find wholly irrational, in any subject at all?)

I ask the above of you as my thinking would then lead me to believe, with the absence of any other issues in life besides blind beliefs being irrational, it would render the contradictions still valid. This will not produce facts, only highlight how irrational conjured answers can seem to prove a point.

I am not a firm believer in things that cannot be rationalised, the only rational explanation I could comprehend in the original posts case is that due to changes in languages a small portion of these contradictions would only have arisen due to changing languages. This, in my understanding would not explain away all of the contradictions.

Would you like me to continue to respond with your initial request of listing contradictions for you to explain away from the list above only, if so would you mind me looking for contradictions that I cannot surmise an explanation for that are not listed, thus making them harder and allowing for in my opinion a more firm answer if you reply well? (Surmised; do you mind my gathering the most challenging I can find from more than just the original psots, if you wish me to proceed?)

Most importantly though, I’d like to thank you for not going off on a rant and merely attempting to insult me, a brilliant trait I unfortunately only find in religious followers so often. I’m looking forward to a good debate with you mate.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by MrAnonUK]

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:18 AM
Actually mate, what I'm trying to do in this thread isn't right. Two wrongs does not make a right.

I'm out bro, I respect you.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:26 AM

If you have any questions about any verses in the Bible, feel free to U2U me about them. I'd be happy to shed some light on them (I'll do my best).

Please remember we face the exact same thing you describe when discussing Evolution. I think both sides need to learn to be more sensitive to what others believe.

I must also say that you've always been polite and courteous as far as I can see. Which I must give you credit for.

God Bless.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:41 AM
reply to post by B.A.C.

I was blessed at birth having died once and come back, blessed to have been the first to make it to egg first aswell I guess lol.

If your wondering what brought this turn on, I was just reading around and it made me remember something I shouldn't let slip my mind. The belief that as long as I'm as good as I can be then surely that's the most that can be asked of me.

I apologise for having attempted to question your belief system, we're all right along as we're good. I may even take you up on the offer one day if you'd be so kind, although I don't subscribe to the texts their is clearly a great amount of good to be taken from them.

Take care mate,

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 06:10 PM

Originally posted by MrAnonUK
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

A few things I think you need to understand about these verses. I can't say for sure that this is what is meant in the verses, but it is inline with what I know to be true, and would explain it.

There are 2 births for every person. You, Jesus, all of us. 1 birth is of the flesh, your body and so forth. And that part does indeed come after the animals and so forth. This part is also inline with evolution in it's order as well.

The 2nd birth is of the soul/spirit/consciousness. This is a part of the father/god/divine within of every person. It is eternal and has been around since before this earth/universe was created.

Also, when it says "days" or a "day", it doesn't mean a literal 1 day period. It's just to a sequence of events. In another place in the bible for example, it likens a single day for god into 1000's of earth years. So it's more of a way of saying this happened, then this happened, then came this, etc rather than trying to be a specific time line.

As well, I have no problems with evolution and think evolution does happen. I do believe there is a consciousness behind the evolution, but that is another story. I'm a programmer, and I get the exact same kind of evolution we see on this earth in my programs. And I even get junk code. DNA is just a config file. Long post there, so this is just a summary, I can go into detail. Genetics is really just the reverse engineering of an extremely advanced biological technology. Change a single config file variable, and the entire program/organism changes.

Any that I don't quote I'm not sure of, or don't find such details to be important to it. I know a good bit of the stories are allegorical in themselves, and aren't mean to be taken as historical "fact". Meaning, there is an understanding that the stories include(or included at one time) and that was important, rather than such details. Like noah for example.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 07:00 PM

Originally posted by MrAnonUK
PS 10:1 God cannot be found in time of need. He is "far off."
PS 145:18 God is near to all who call upon him in truth.

I think you've taken this out of context. Have you ever read the footprints in the sand poem? The man feels like god wasn't there and asks why there was only 1 set of footprints in the hard times, and it wasn't because the man was walking alone in those times, but because the father was carrying him. The verse in 10:1 was not a statement, but a question. "oh why does it appear you are so far". "why aren't you hear to help me now".

It's about like crying about your car being stuck in the mud while the tow truck is already hooked up and tugging, but you don't see it because you aren't looking at the future and where you are going, but only that you are in the mud currently.

PS 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer.
PS 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help.

Have you ever heard of tough love? As much as you love your kids, some lessons they just have to learn on their own.

PS 58:10-11 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance.
PR 24:16-18 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles.

These are starting to get a bit dishonest. Happy for things being set right, not happy because people felt the other end.

PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

Talk to the fool in questions. Rather than telling them what is what, ask them questions that will lead them to their own understanding. This is not something that is easy to do, and something I need improvement in.

Luke 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.

I'm going to stop here. Alot of things are taken out of context or done without some basic understandings. There are contradictions and such, but I'm not someone who thinks the bible is the "literal" word of god. People had to hear the actual word of god in order to write such things down, and each person carries their own ways of expressing or understanding things.

For example, when I first realized John 14:20, I did not quote that bible verse. I didn't know the verse existed. I instead said - I am god, and I am arguing with myself. Which was when I recognized the father within myself, and that the father was also in others(and so we are all god, arguing with ourselves). Some people take what I say the wrong way, so now I quote John 14:20, because it says the same thing, only sounds a bit better.

And like Genesis. I look at it as more of a outline, or how you would explain the universe to a kid. Well, this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And evolution and science actually fits into that outline, just gives more detail on how it is done.

I'm a big fan of the movie the matrix. It tells and speaks alot of truth. But it is an allegorical story. If I say the matrix is real, and you want to sit around and take that to mean that the machines are real and be literal about it, then you have missed the point. You can sit around and point out the scene where in 1 cut Neo has guns laying next to him, and then in the next cut they are missing and all these things. But that is not the point, that is not what was real. What is real about the matrix is the understanding and wisdom about things it provides. The philosophical examples.

Another movie reference, white men can't jump. You can listen to Jimi, but can you hear Jimi? Do you know the difference? Or as Nirvana sang - he's the one who likes all our pretty songs, and he likes to sing along, but he knows not what it means, knows not what it means.

Honestly, the only thing that is poisoning rationalism in this world is the focus on the literal rather than the understanding. The idol, rather than the message. And so forth. If you want to be rational, then you should be looking at the understanding the bible provides and debating that, rather than the literal words.

When Jesus says let those with ears hear, do you think the majority of the population was running around with no physical ears? Of course not, you are smart enough to understand the meaning of that.

Buddha said -- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

Can't get more rational than that. And when you look at the example of Jesus and such, I find it fits those requirements and is something I should accept and live up to. But you will never see it focusing on the literal, and that goes for all religions, all beliefs, all people. People who fight over allah and Jesus for example, they do not understand. They are focused only on the literal and all they can see is the 2 literals are different. If they looked at the understanding instead, they would probably start finding they are more alike then they realized. But instead, we get "religions" striving to be "the" 1 world religion, and none of it is an example of the understanding of Jesus or the bible.

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