Are You Glad Christian Churches are closing?

reply to post by jon1

orget for a second that you are sitting behind a keyboard and pulling brave words out of thin air. Say you were sat at the bedside of a child who has just lost a limb and her parents and family were there and you just heard her say "i wish jesus would heal me" Are you telling me that you would say "Excuse me but i know Jesus and he CAN regenerate a new limb for her, Would you like me to pray for her. Even though you know there has never been a recorded case of jesus ever doing that. ?????????

I don't pull brave words out of thin air, I try to look at claims objectively based on available evidence.

The available evidence is this - no limb has ever been regenerated, you claim that for whatever reason you nor any other christian can do it.

I point out that your own scriptures say that it is not you that's is not doing it, as you merely make the request for it to be done.

Now either in over 2000 years no one has requested it (regeneration of limb) to be done or jesus either cannot do it or lied when he emphatically stated that whatsoever you ask of him "will" be done, or no one believed jesus could do it in the first place.

If you don't believe jesus can do it then obviously you have no "faith" that he can do it,and faith as we know is believing something without evidence or the requirement of.

You can not have it both ways my friend, it is either you healing or jesus healing and according to your scriptures it is jesus, upon your request.

Evidently you do not believe that jesus can regenerate a limb because if you did, then it would be done.

As you rightly point out, no human limb has ever been regenerated, which immediately implies that no one had the faith in jesus to make the request and as we know (again) faith is believing something without the requirement of evidence.

Even a child can take this reasoning and conclude that no one has ever believed (had faith) that jesus can regenerate a limb, and when you don't believe someone can do what they claim this then make them a liar or deluded.


Attacking me personally does not make this problem go away but is just a diversion tactic used by many, when they fail to justify their wild and unfounded claims of supernatural intervention in human healing.


When xtians go around telling children jesus can heal a bad back or a headache, it's not good enough to hum and ha when a child asks sincerely for another arm, or someone crippled with arthritis to ask for a cure.

This is but one of the many reasons that churches are being torn down at a faster rate than ever before. Not because people hate xtians but simply that xtianity fails to produce the goods, xtianity completely fails to be honest.

OH, and can you point me in the right direction to this evidence that God does not exist.

It doesn't exist. And neither does the proof god does exist.
I have no idea if there is a god or not. In fact, no-one does. Anyone that says otherwise is either a liar, or seriously deluded.
That's another aspect of religion that is laughable: "We know what god wants, and he's appointed us to tell you! We know the will of god"
Sure you do. Seems a lot of people fell for that one.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” - Mahatma Gandhi

“Man discovers truth by reason only, not by faith.” - Tolstoy

I don't pull brave words out of thin air, I try to look at claims objectively based on available evidence.

Dude, you cannot reason with a religious person. If you could, there would be no religion.

reply to post by moocowman

The available evidence is this - no limb has ever been regenerated, you claim that for whatever reason you nor any other christian can do it.

I point out that your own scriptures say that it is not you that's is not doing it, as you merely make the request for it to be done.

Where on earth do you get the idea that i think that i am doing the healing?
What i have said is that i do the praying.
This though is what i have stated..

It still amazes me to think that although Jesus never healed an amputee people try and prove christ is not real because we as followers can't make it happen either.

you know that i mean through prayer but you just have to twist things around.

Now either in over 2000 years no one has requested it (regeneration of limb) to be done or jesus either cannot do it or lied when he emphatically stated that whatsoever you ask of him "will" be done, or no one believed jesus could do it in the first place.

I have absolute faith that Jesus can do anything, the question is why has he not done it?

"Whatever i ask of him will be done".

What, Like I want to win the lottery, i want to live untill i am 150, i want to be president.
According to you all this will be granted.
What you fail to understand is that Jesus loves us and will only give us what he wishes.
If you were a millionaire and you told your children that they could have anything they wanted, they then asked for just an ice cream but as it is to near supper time you say no, does that make you a lier or someone who loves them and only wants what is good for them?
We don't allways ask for the right things in Gods eyes and we will never know the reasons why we don't allways get what we ask for.
You take things to literal without thinking things through sometimes.

Evidently you do not believe that jesus can regenerate a limb because if you did, then it would be done.

I believe he could turn you into a frog though, now there's a thought.

Attacking me personally does not make this problem go away but is just a diversion tactic used by many, when they fail to justify their wild and unfounded claims of supernatural intervention in human healing.

When i sit here and speak of my healing ministry and how Jesus does and has healed many people, and you say he has healed no one then you are calling me a lier. No if's or but's, that is what you are calling me.
You dont say "John, I believe that you think you have seen healing but in my own mind i cannot see it happening and i don't believe in it.

You are like all the other athiests around, Although you are in the minority here you call everyone else a lier because you are to lazy or scared to investigate these claims of healing for yourself.
If you really wanted the truth, like i say go to a couple of churches that have healing ministrys and find out the truth for yourself.
Untill you do, you will get no respect from me.

The first thing you should do when trying to bebunk something is to get your facts right and get an indepth knowlege of the subject first, not be an armchair critic.

OT, trust me I spend little time looking horizontally. What a Christian thinks of me is of little difference. What matters is my character. If a bunch of people think I have poor character then I see a problem and want to fix it. But jon and others seem to want to judge my character by the associations I keep and by my affiliations. That is pathetic to me and thus they don’t earn my respect. See I know I have issues but a Christian is supposed to be into forgiveness since it isn’t theirs to judge. I like you a lot OT. You ask relevant and good questions and while I know you deep down would love to bring me to Christ, you accept me for who I am and then even take a moment to learn about me and what I think.

So I would reward your questions any day and any time

Ok…let me start the easier part first

Isis is the Egyptian goddess of magic, fertility, beauty, love and several other things. She was a human girl and was made a goddess with immense power but she used it only when needed. He husband, Osiris was killed by another god and his body parts were spread so far that it was thought they would never find him. Her love was so great that she traveled the world and found each piece and regenerated him and since then they were both deities

Now the tougher part

I moved away from Jesus and God because I felt an abnormal pull towards the Pagan religions. I sat and read and searched my own heart and to me it seemed that the religion I was in was too strict and it felt to me my life wasn’t meant for enjoyment. I looked at what I had done and I felt ashamed…but I felt ashamed that I WAS ashamed because I had done nothing wrong. For example, my wife and I experimented sexually with others. We’ve done things that were part of sharing our body and our love for each other. Nobody was damaged and in fact we’re stronger today. Then when I look at Christianity, I am wrong. Homosexuals are wrong…I can’t tolerate that honestly.

JON

See this is exactly the problem I have jon. You seem to have this idea that atheists aren’t worth your time whatsoever, or at least that is what you portray. OT said you were just trying to help me but what sort of help is that? You calling people liars and judging us is not going to win us over. You told the atheist that he is a liar as ALL atheists. Now I suppose somehow you have researched and personally discovered that all atheists are liars. Well let me flip this on you. You told us not to say anything until we have been to healing ministries. Well…until you question every atheist and see the truth about whether they are lying, leave the generalizations at home.

I’m sorry to tell you this as well but you aren’t the judge. Whether I believe in JC or not (which I do…just not in the same capacity) I will never accept any human’s judgment on me because it isn’t your duty to do so.

Remember…the first thing you should do when trying to debunk something is to learn about it. Your words…and I am pretty sure you don’t truly know whether or not all or even most atheists are as you say they are

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

JON

See this is exactly the problem I have jon. You seem to have this idea that atheists aren’t worth your time whatsoever, or at least that is what you portray. OT said you were just trying to help me but what sort of help is that? You calling people liars and judging us is not going to win us over. You told the atheist that he is a liar as ALL atheists. Now I suppose somehow you have researched and personally discovered that all atheists are liars. Well let me flip this on you. You told us not to say anything until we have been to healing ministries. Well…until you question every atheist and see the truth about whether they are lying, leave the generalizations at home.

I’m sorry to tell you this as well but you aren’t the judge. Whether I believe in JC or not (which I do…just not in the same capacity) I will never accept any human’s judgment on me because it isn’t your duty to do so.

Remember…the first thing you should do when trying to debunk something is to learn about it. Your words…and I am pretty sure you don’t truly know whether or not all or even most atheists are as you say they are

Wow, Either you are misreading my posts or i am saying things that i can't remember.
The majority of my friends are athiests and i was one for 47 yrs so i certainly don't have a problem with them.
The problem that i do have though is with athiests who go all out to call christians all sorts of names when what we say is true. I am not delusional, When i prayed for a frozen hip joint to be healed, 10 mins later the guy had 100% movement back. when i have prayed for someone with such a severe back pain that the ambulance was called, i laid hands on them and the pain dissapeared instantly. These things are real and people will testify to that effect. I have many, many instances like these to tell.
I don't try and push religion onto anybody, never have, never will, but if someone wants to know something then i will tell the truth as far as i know it.
As for calling an athiest a lier, could you please point me in the direction of that statement.
Same again for my "judgement" on others, Any judgement is done by god so i only repeat what is tought in the bible, Jesus says that when he returns EVERY knee shall bow. everyone in Gods eyes is a sinner no matter who they are.

You must get back to me on this one because if i have done these things then i will make things right.

Originally posted by jon1

The majority of my friends are athiests and i was one for 47 yrs so i certainly don't have a problem with them.......

.....You must get back to me on this one because if i have done these things then i will make things right.

whew...47.....and THEN came to Christ?

Boy, that is rare...

Praise Him for mercy, grace and patience, huh?

= = = = =

Jon1, also a great example of following His teaching to be proactive for making things right/clarifying/etc...

Glad you joined the thread man!

OT

You are like all the other athiests around, Although you are in the minority here you call everyone else a lier because you are to lazy or scared to investigate these claims of healing for yourself.

you are like 'all' the other atheists around...too lazy and scared

Maybe they have investigated and found it to not be true

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


Kyo, I used to live in Wheaton, ILL.....cold!

DA BEARS!!!!

OT

We christians live in the real world also and we are still hardwired to follow logic in this life.

A non-Christian doesn't live in reality? This to me is a judgement

You are not as SORTED as you think you are.

You don't know how sorted out any of us are

forget for a second that you are sitting behind a keyboard and pulling brave words out of thin air.

You just assume he is BSing or brave only because he is behind a computer

Is your heart and mind really that clear of sin, i don't think so.

you know how clear my mind and heart is without even so much as meeting me?

Those are my examples

-Kyo

reply to post by jon1





The available evidence is this - no limb has ever been regenerated, you claim that for whatever reason you nor any other christian can do it.

I point out that your own scriptures say that it is not you that's is not doing it, as you merely make the request for it to be done.

Where on earth do you get the idea that i think that i am doing the healing? What i have said is that i do the praying. This though is what i have stated..

I got this idea because in your earlier post you alluded to not having enough faith to make it happen. Clearly you are an integral part of the process either you make it happen , or as you're now pointing out you merely request that it happen.

If your part of the process is merely to make the request, then clearly you have either not made the request, or you don't believe the request can be fulfilled ie you have no faith which is as we know is believing in something without the requirement of evidence.

It still amazes me to think that although Jesus never healed an amputee people try and prove christ is not real because we as followers can't make it happen either.

No one is trying to prove jesus is not real Jon, let's understand each other here. There is no absolute proof of the reality of jesus so trying to prove the unreality is not very smart, it's a bit like trying to prove pixies or fairies don't exist, I simply don't have to my friend as there is no proof they do exist to begin with.

Again the burden of proof is upon you,not me, and by the way I did not set out to disprove anything in this thread. I just questioned things and asked for evidence of the outlandish claims being made, and to this point there has still been no evidence provided and questions have not been answered.

you know that i mean through prayer but you just have to twist things around.

Clearly I don't know what you mean please enlighten me, I certainly not gone out of my way to twist anything. If I wish to understand prayer I can do as anyone else can do, pick up one of the bibles and see what has to be said. This is a simple enough process that only requires the ability to read and interpret what is being said, which I have done but clearly you disagree with what I have read or my interpretation thereof.

I have absolute faith that Jesus can do anything, the question is why has he not done it?

Yes that is a good question isn't it, why has he not done it ? There can only be 3 possible explanations for this. He simply cannot do it, he has not been asked to do it, or jesus is simply imaginary.



"Whatever i ask of him will be done".

What, Like I want to win the lottery, i want to live untill i am 150, i want to be president

What, you wouldn't want to win the lottery or are afraid to ask ?

According to you all this will be granted. What you fail to understand is that Jesus loves us and will only give us what he wishes.

Not according to me but according to jesus in your bibles

If you were a millionaire and you told your children that they could have anything they wanted, they then asked for just an ice cream but as it is to near supper time you say no, does that make you a lier or someone who loves them and only wants what is good for them?

My children don't make their own choices until they are mature enough to do so. Are you somehow trying to say that jesus treats you as a child and denies you things that he thinks would somehow compromise your maturing into an adult, this would surely make a mockery of free will and deem commandments pointless.

We don't allways ask for the right things in Gods eyes and we will never know the reasons why we don't allways get what we ask for. You take things to literal without thinking things through sometimes.

Jesus didn't say anything about asking for the "right "things he said "whatsoever" believing it will be done. Is the bible not to be taken literally then ?

If all or parts of the bible are not to be taken literally, please enlighten me me on which parts are and which parts are not to be taken literally. Also please be courteous enough to explain who decided which parts these were to be and by who's authority.?

I believe he could turn you into a frog though, now there's a thought.

If you can believe that the jesus god can turn me into a frog, why can't you extend your belief to an amputee and ask that his/her limb be regenerated.


Attacking me personally does not make this problem go away but is just a diversion tactic used by many, when they fail to justify their wild and unfounded claims of supernatural intervention in human healing.

When i sit here and speak of my healing ministry and how Jesus does and has healed many people, and you say he has healed no one then you are calling me a lier.

I'm not calling you a liar I'm asking you for evidence of your healing, I'm also asking why your healing does not extend to amputees and arthritis etc.

However if you continue to make claims of miraculous healing by paranormal without producing hard evidence, then of course that could be construed as lying or delusion.

I've always been staggered as to why xtians should need to go to a doctor when they also go around claiming that according to their bibles disease is caused by demons and can healed with prayer.

You are like all the other athiests around, Although you are in the minority here you call everyone else a lier because you are to lazy or scared to investigate these claims of healing for yourself.

Why do you assume I'm an atheist my friend ? Ive never said I'm an atheist.
Don't know whether you've noticed my friend but in the UK practicing xtians are fast becoming a minority.

here's an extract of the kind of numbers we're looking at-

The case is significant because it could ultimately cost the Church of England and the other Anglican churches in the UK nearly all of their 25,336,000 official members, as recorded by the World Council of Churches, as counted by the Wakeham Commission on reform of the House of Lords .

Of course that's official members not counting the people who turn up for weddings and funerals

If you really wanted the truth, like i say go to a couple of churches that have healing ministrys and find out the truth for yourself. Untill you do, you will get no respect from me.

I've never asked for your respect and I've taken the time to hang out at quite a few churches, watched people writhing on the floor, speaking in tongues falling into someones arms etc. And yes xtians still limp cough and take medication, such is their faith.

The first thing you should do when trying to bebunk something is to get your facts right and get an indepth knowlege of the subject first, not be an armchair critic.

I have in depth knowledge of this subject - there is no undisputed evidence for your claims, the burden of proof is upon you.

reply to post by cruzion

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” - Mahatma Gandhi

I like that so much that i thought I'd repeat it, the irony is that Gandhi would appear more christlike than any christian don't you think ?

The ole' thread is heating up....

Good job alll...


OT's gotta go to dinner...watch the CAVS...maybe have a cold one...well for sure, have a cold one

Keep er' going....I'll check back later...

OT's prayin for wisdom and understanding for all...

seeya!

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

The ole' thread is heating up.... Good job alll...

You sound like a tomato farmer off for ice tea while the Mexicans pick the fruit of his lack of labour.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker

 

The ole' thread is heating up.... Good job alll...

You sound like a tomato farmer off for ice tea while the Mexicans pick the fruit of his lack of labour.

It was a good ice tea...from long island i think?

moo, all can read OT's best arguments to date...on the ole profile right?

They'll see many battles there huh?...many with u!!!

Can't a guy take the night off from arguing, just a tad? I'll be back soon enough....from my reading the LIGHT has some articulate posters here....I'll step up when needed ok?

Thoughts?

OT

OT...you take your time...cheers

-raises his own glass of German Riesling-

to you from me

cheers

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


Kyo....

Very good...enjoy!

btw, the Cavs won in OT, that's 'overtime', not 'oldthinker'! :shk:

Good night all...

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by jon1

The majority of my friends are athiests and i was one for 47 yrs so i certainly don't have a problem with them.......

.....You must get back to me on this one because if i have done these things then i will make things right.

whew...47.....and THEN came to Christ?

Boy, that is rare...

Praise Him for mercy, grace and patience, huh?

= = = = =

Jon1, also a great example of following His teaching to be proactive for making things right/clarifying/etc...

Glad you joined the thread man!

OT

Sometimes i think it is best have lived life a little before coming to christ because this gives me a good prespective on where people are coming from when ministering to them.

Also, i have travelled the world a couple of times, mainly from bar to bar so i have done a little sinning in my time. [thats an understatement if there ever was one]

Thanks for your patience with me for almost taking over your thread.

God bless
John.

Hi Oldthinker.
As i now suspect that i am discussing things with disgruntled ex christians with a huge chip on thier shoulder, i think it is time to call it a day on this thread.
We are told to spread the word of Jesus but these people obviously know far more than me and if they wish to deny God then it is up to them.
I have done my part so it is time to move on. Plus you might get some answers to your original question..

God bless my friend

John.

Wow...didn't even want to look at what I wrote and give me a response. Well...enjoy trying to spread your message. If you can't handle a couple of 'dumb kids' like us then you aren't going to do very well.

You know what? you are indeed right in my case. I am disgruntled. Not because of God and JC. I made my peace about leaving them and although I don't agree with their word BUT it isn't for me to decide so I kindly od my head and go with what I feel. She has taught me much. No...what I AM disgruntled with is the sort of message you spread. You come in and judge people, ask to have it pointed out, get it pointed out then (in what I see) tuck tail and run. I could be totally wrong but this is obviously what you wish. You would rather not face the problem at all and thus as you said earlier to other posters, you have no respect for me. My being disgruntled is with Christians like you who view me as a plague, not with Jesus or his word.

That's fine and trust me I hold no ill feelings towards you.

OT...I will still be around if you have any further questions because I am always willing to answer.

-Kyo