Are You Glad Christian Churches are closing?

Religion is a joke. Those that were brainwashed into it don't want to be the brunt of a joke, so they keep perpetuating it.
Of course, all believers hate to hear it, as their faith is that their religion and its beliefs are real, and not made-up. Every religion believes they are right, even when they contradict each other. They just bulldoze ahead in their indoctrinated hope, oblivious to the reality of the world and the universe. "this is how I was taught the universe is, and I'm going to believe it anyway, even though the evidence proves it is nonsense!".
Only my opinion, and please don't take offense, but religion really is stupid.
It is laughable how the religious believe that the non-religious are somehow less moral than they. Morality exists wether you are into religion or not. It is just common sense and kindness towards others. It existed long before christianity.
In fact, the evisense suggests that countries that have a large religious population are more inclined towards immorality and criminality than those that don't. Japan is the best example - only 10% believe in some form of a deity, yet they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and they are a population of 111 million. Less religion = better morals?

reply to post by moocowman

Then why does god have commandments ?

They are rules to live your life by, he does not make us live by them, that is our choice.

And why do xtians insist on trying to prevent gay people marrying etc ?

Because God says it is wrong, but once again he does not prevent people being gay if they want to live thier lives that way.

by pushing his will on anyone i mean that he won't heal someone unless they have asked for healing. everything is our choice..



Jesusistruth.
I hope you don;t mind but i would like to answer part of the next post that is directed at you.

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.

Exactly, we have no records of Jesus healing amputees so for me to pray that prayer would take far more faith than i have.
Even though he says "and even greater things" it still requires more faith than most people have, even if we did pray the prayer, I think there is little chance of it becoming reality. Heck, I have masses of faith to pray for someone with a bad back but only a small % af healing prayers become reality.
We christians live in the real world also and we are still hardwired to follow logic in this life.
Once we believe in God we don't get wired up to the world of the supernatural and all logic goes out of the window.
Ask yourself this, If Jesus came into your life tomorrow would you go and find the nearest amputee and honestly expect a new limb to be just a short prayer away. No, you would be to busy praying for forgiveness and trying to sort yourself out.
It still amazes me to think that although Jesus never healed an amputee people try and prove christ is not real because we as followers can't make it happen either. Desperate times i tell you.

Originally posted by cruzion
Religion is a joke. Those that were brainwashed into it don't want to be the brunt of a joke, so they keep perpetuating it.
Of course, all believers hate to hear it, as their faith is that their religion and its beliefs are real, and not made-up. Every religion believes they are right, even when they contradict each other. They just bulldoze ahead in their indoctrinated hope, oblivious to the reality of the world and the universe. "this is how I was taught the universe is, and I'm going to believe it anyway, even though the evidence proves it is nonsense!".
Only my opinion, and please don't take offense, but religion really is stupid.
It is laughable how the religious believe that the non-religious are somehow less moral than they. Morality exists wether you are into religion or not. It is just common sense and kindness towards others. It existed long before christianity.
In fact, the evisense suggests that countries that have a large religious population are more inclined towards immorality and criminality than those that don't. Japan is the best example - only 10% believe in some form of a deity, yet they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and they are a population of 111 million. Less religion = better morals?

You don't really know what you are talking about do you?
Has God come into your life and made himself known to you without ever going to church before?, has he made such an impact on you that his being real is undeniable?
Have you experienced using the gifts of the spirit to help others? seen people healed of ailments or told people things about themselves that only they and God know about.

This is the world of a spirit filled christian so there is no brainwashing involved, this is the reality we are in.

But anyway, you carry on living in your ignorance while the majority of the population carry on doing Gods work.

P.S. Don't blame mans wrongdoing on religion. God only teaches love and doing good deeds to those who truly follow him and no, my morals are no better than yours but the difference is, I get a kick up the spiritual backside when i do wrong and ask for forgiveness.

OH, and can you point me in the right direction to this evidence that God does not exist.
This should be a good read.





[edit on 17-3-2009 by jon1]

Hello again OT. I'm one of the percentage that left the church I was brought up in. It was after 50 years. I'm now atheist or humanist with Christian tendencies. These words are not adequate to describe what I am or what I think and feel. Such is language.

I found it very easy to rail against the church when I first left. After a time I got over assigning blame for having been brainwashed for 50 years. Then it hits you that despite the lost time there's more ahead. Whether a little or a lot of time it's mine and I would rather not waste any more fighting mostly myself. I now feel l've had good fortune rather than been cheated. So, no I get no pleasure out of churches closing. I think there are a large number of people that would not handle freethinking very well. Many don't handle regimented thinking very well.

I think these institutions will rise and fall on their own merits. They've been around a long time but "the times they are a changing". We've seen a recent rallying against Islamic fundamentalism and with that people are starting to question their own dogmas. Along the lines of "What makes my fairy tale so much different than theirs? And they're freakin' nuts!"

Things are changing and that's always scary. It's "the devil you know" type of thing. I hope I'm above being gleeful over another persons' loss. (It is people we're discussing not buildings.) I don't confront my family and friends over my change. They've seen it in me. They all know I'm no longer going and they've heard my diatribes against the church I belonged to. I don't need a business card.

No, I'm not glad. This will be a long process. “Rome wasn’t built…” I'll be glad when we can agree to disagree on the hereafter and move on in the here and now. I'm optimistic.

reply to post by Hemisphere


sounds like you are moving into the more mature/latter 'stages of faith' by James Fowler (its a book and can be googled for an overview)

btw, JC is there too...

OT

reply to post by jon1


Nope...can you point us in the direction that he does exist?

I feel the power of another deity and the Lord has not lived through me or talked to me and donemuch for me.

I know...in a moment, you or someone else will come and tell me that I am wrong and it is him and I am too silly or ignorant to know it. So tell me this...

Let's say God IS the one and only. why would he present himself to me as a female goddess and do so much for me under her name cuz I gotta say if Isis turns out to be God in disguise I am through with him.

I do like how you said if Jesus showed up that we would be too busy fixing ourselves to try and ask him to use a mircale on another. I assume you know this because you know all our hearts and minds. If he came down right now, frankly I have nothing wrong with me but I know plenty of people in my life who hurt and are falling apart and I would love to give my wish to them.

Also...while I am it...can you also point us to the direction saying being gay is a choice? There sure are alot of people who say they didn't chose it.

-Kyo

My post was for cruzion and if you read his posts you will see why i ask the questions that i do.

I do like how you said if Jesus showed up that we would be too busy fixing ourselves to try and ask him to use a mircale on another. I assume you know this because you know all our hearts and minds. If he came down right now, frankly I have nothing wrong with me but I know plenty of people in my life who hurt and are falling apart and I would love to give my wish to them.

I assume this because none of us are perfect and we say and do things that are against gods wishes.
Is your heart and mind really that clear of sin, i don't think so.
good for you though that you have a heart for the suffering.

if Isis turns out to be God in disguise I am through with him.

I think you might find it is lucifer and not God, could be wrong though.

Also...while I am it...can you also point us to the direction saying being gay is a choice? There sure are alot of people who say they didn't chose it.

Our desires may not be a choice but our actions certainly are.

reply to post by jon1

They are rules to live your life by, he does not make us live by them, that is our choice.

According to the xtian belief system, if you choose not to live by these commandments or reject jesusyaweh holy spirt god, then you will be eternally tortured in heel etc. This is not a choice, the belief is forced upon an individual by fear of repercussion.


And why do xtians insist on trying to prevent gay people marrying etc ?

Because God says it is wrong, but once again he does not prevent people being gay if they want to live thier lives that way.

My question was in relation to xtians trying to interfere with other peoples lives, gay marriage being an example of their interference, forcing their belief upon others.

Nevertheless, should my belief be, correctly or incorrectly that strawberries will kill you. I force my belief upon my child by telling him that although the strawberries are poisonous and would lead to his death he may eat them if he chooses. However should he choose to eat the strawberries I would torture him for an eternity.

This is a no choice situation and a belief is being forced upon another person regardless of reason, no different to xtian belief.


by pushing his will on anyone i mean that he won't heal someone unless they have asked for healing. everything is our choice..

Jesusistruth. I hope you don;t mind but i would like to answer part of the next post that is directed at you.

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.

Exactly, we have no records of Jesus healing amputees so for me to pray that prayer would take far more faith than i have.

According to jesus himself it only takes the faith the size of a mustard seed, a mustard seed is very very very small dude, so obviously jesus was saying that you cannot quantify faith, you either have it or don't. Whether you believe you do or believe you don't, you're right

Even though he says "and even greater things" it still requires more faith than most people have, even if we did pray the prayer, I think there is little chance of it becoming reality. Heck, I have masses of faith to pray for someone with a bad back but only a small % af healing prayers become reality.

Again this thing about "more" faith, jesus quite clearly said "whatsoever" what your saying (along with many other xtians) is that the healing is done by yourselves. The jesusgod makes it quite clear however that it's he that's doing the healing "not you", you're only doing the asking.


Clearly you're just no getting it or are choosing not to get it because of lack of evidence.

What you are implying is that you can get a bad back sorted out but your kung fu is not strong in the regeneration of limbs department. Again it's not you doing the juju my friend it's jesus, remeber the dude that said "whatsoever ye shall ask" ?

We christians live in the real world also and we are still hardwired to follow logic in this life Once we believe in God we don't get wired up to the world of the supernatural and all logic goes out of the window.

Clearly you don't live in the real world or you would be aware that by definition your god is a supernatural being, and what is very evident that logic has gone completely out the window.

Here some logic for you, see if you can follow,-
Your god has told you unequivocally that whatever you ask of him, believing he will do it, will be done. Okey dokey by your logic you believe that your god can cure a bad back as you've already stated, however you clearly don't believe that your god can regenerate a limb.

Here's another example of not living in the real world logic, you believe that your god will cure a bad back should you so ask, which is fine as he did promise you this, remember the whatsoever bit? okey dokey and being a nice guy you ask him to sort out your mates bad back all well and good.

Here's the problem my friend, logic would dictate that if you could ask for "whatever" being a decent kind of dude, you wouldn't ask for your mates backache to be cured you'd ask for an end to backache or an end to to sickness. "Whatsoever" means what it says or nothing at all, mustard seed means faith is faith, not varying degrees of believing in someting without evidence, you either believe or you don't no half measures with the jesysgod I'm sorry to say.

Ask yourself this, If Jesus came into your life tomorrow would you go and find the nearest amputee and honestly expect a new limb to be just a short prayer away.

Well, yes I would as a matter fact is that to much to ask of someone who it's claimed did that sort of thing before tea ?

No, you would be to busy praying for forgiveness and trying to sort yourself out.

No I wouldn't , forgiveness doesn't come an varying degrees dude, you're forgiven or your not, no half measures here either, ask and it will be done "Whatsoever" how long can that possibly take ?
Sort myself out ? I'm pretty well sorted thanks for the concern anyhoo.

It still amazes me to think that although Jesus never healed an amputee people try and prove christ is not real because we as followers can't make it happen either.

This speaks volumes my friend, first off the burden of proof of the reality of the jesusgod is upon you.

Second if the jesusgod is supposed to have created the heaven, earth blah blah braught people back from the dead etc, what makes you think he couldn't regenerate a limb?
A gecko can regenerate a limb< I wonder who created the gecko ?
Seems like I have more faith in this fictional character than you do, now that's insane logic don't you think ?

reply to post by moocowman


moo, your questions are always thought provoking...

You know I'd admire you...and your love for your kids...

I'm gonna ask you to switch your focus...

I do this out of concern...hope...etc...

Corny enough I know...

Let's focus vertically here, ok...and not horizonally...

Certainly this is a confused world...OT would call it 'fallen'...

Here are some truths, that if you accept...you will begin to see this crap, I wanted to say more..but would be cencorsed, fosho...

See link and let me know your perspective...

OT not trying to WIN an argument here...

I know this JC personally for over 35 yrs....talk to him everyday...no personal visits, no weird BS....just that He is my best friend...good to me...

here it is...

God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.

God's Love
"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16, NIV).

God's Plan
[Christ speaking] "I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly"
[that it might be full and meaningful] (John 10:10).

Why is it that most people are not experiencing that abundant life?

Because...

part 1 of 4...


here...rest on link below bro...www.campuscrusade.com...

Is your heart and mind really that clear of sin, i don't think so.

Sorry but you don't know my heart that well

I am most certainly am not clear of sin. I screw up just like any other. The thing is I define what sin is and what it isn't alot differently. I find that sitting and punishing myself for it is pointless. We are human being regardless of God or not and because of this we will mess up...ALOT as you well know. But why dwell constantly. Apologize or make whatever transgression you need then move on.

Sorry but if God did show up, I'd send that wish to the amputee. What else do I truly need? I have a good life, I treat people very well and I am happy. I don't need anything special so yeah...I use that miracle as I see fit.

Long story short...I AM that clear of sin because I don't let it get to me. That isn't egotistic either. I am no better than anyone else...not by a long shot. The only difference is I don't dwell. Those things I did in the past are in the past.

Sorry friend...you don't know my heart just as I don't know yours.

-Kyo

reply to post by OldThinker


Okey dokey OT will check out the link a bit at a time (thanks for the praise by the way appreciated)

First Law

God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.

It is alleged (correct me if you personally think to the contrary) that God is love, and god is the creator of everything there is was or ever will be.

So there can be nothing that is not god if the above is true and there can be nothing that is not love, also if the above is true.


This then would preclude god not loving me, as god is love and cannot be anything that is not love, as god is all that there is and nothing is not god, so nothing is not love.

So we can now logically deduce that god is incapable of not loving me (me meaning anyone) and that if god is incapable of not loving me and that god is all that there is and there cannot be anything that is not god. then we can further deduce that this precludes being separate from god in any way.

A nice little segue into -
(I'll get back to the bit about the plan later)

law 2

Man is sinful and separated from God.
Therefore, he cannot know and experience
God's love and plan for his life.

Sin and separate are 2 different things so lets go with separate first as we've touched on this.

We have reasoned (god knows why lol) that god is all that there is was and will ever be so there can be nothing that is not god.

Some would counter this with something being "Not of God" , however for something to be "not of god" there has to be something/somewhere for it to be from. However, we have reasoned that god is all that there is , was and will ever be, so there cannot be something/somewhere or even when, for something "not of god" to be from.

We now have no choice but to reason that to be separate from god is impossible based upon our earlier reasoning,as to for something to be separate of god would imply that god is not all that there is,.

So it is impossible for anything to be not of god and it is impossible for anything to be in anyway separate of god. Unless of course god is not all that there is, which would kind of unmake the maker so to speak.


I'll deal with sin,plan and experience next time OT my swede is started to hurt and I'm shagged out with typing and thinking. CU later OT

Originally posted by moocowman
I'll deal with sin,plan and experience next time OT my swede is started to hurt and I'm shagged out with typing and thinking. CU later OT

thinking, huh?

You definitely did a bunch of that with the last post...

Your logic is tight...

Your words are true...unargue-able...this is an ugly world...


I'm lookin forward to seeing the next response...please take your time...


I do appreciate the energy and committment you are showing with this subject...

We are prayin for you and your search for truth...

OT knows you are honest and are searching...

JC is my best friend...we are here for you and your great kids...

Please know Phil 1:3 was wriiten for you all!!!


We will get there man...we will!!!!!!!

I'd say relax, and don't so fret...my God is the opposite of STRIFE!!!!


He is about love...

the following is a truth I have garnished from scripture...and OT and his big family lives everyday by this...

ok, here it is...caps for emphasis, not yelling....

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE GOD LOVE US MORE THAN HE ALREADY DOES, AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE HIM LOVE US LESS THAN HE ALREADY DOES...


HMM????

what a great thought huh? That's MY JC, bro....a "friend that sticks close than a brother"

OT out (for now, ok?)

Originally posted by KyoZero


Sorry friend...you don't know my heart just as I don't know yours.

-Kyo

Kyo...yes you are right...as usual!

He's just trying to help...

The heart is truly my God's business...

He says...in proverbs 4:23...

Keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

issues of life?

yes...ALL is a result of the heart and JC knows this and so appreciates yours...yes he appreciates YOUR heart...and so long to be intimate with it...

see..

Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the Heart (1 Samuel 16:7)

If interested in more, pls see.. search.live.com...


And if you are a guitar fan please see a great one here... www.youtube.com...

OT likes the message there, al-beit hidden, instrumental...but still THERE!

[edit on 18-3-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I am sad,

but we will go back to meeting underground, in private homes, and in secret to avoid persecution, that is what is written.

Yes!!!

The church is strong and will survive...


hey where was this forseen?

OT

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I'd have to say I don't really care one way or the other if churches close. They are a business afterall, in my opinion.

Business?

How is feeding the poor, business?

How is visiting the incarcerated, business?

etc, etc...


This is not wallstreet, ay?

Come on now? the church does more than you say, huh?

OT

Originally posted by HIFIGUY


It is in such a manner, that the unbeliever reads scripture, taking a bit here, and a bit there out of context, and making an arguement not of the original context.

Good point Hifi...


I heard it this way...A "text without a CONTEXT, is a PRETEXT!"

Wisdom says, be diligent...due your research, don't be lazy...afterall ETERNITY depends on it, huh?

OT

Originally posted by jon1

Try visiting a couple of churches that have healing ministrys and you will get all the evidence that you need.

jon1, I second that...

if we look...we will find!

Thank you for posting in OT's thread...

Honored!

OT out!

reply to post by moocowman

According to the xtian belief system, if you choose not to live by these commandments or reject jesusyaweh holy spirt god, then you will be eternally tortured in heel etc. This is not a choice, the belief is forced upon an individual by fear of repercussion.

It's not a matter of choosing to live by these commandments because nobody can, we just try our best to.
Rejecting Jesus is something completely different.

Clearly you don't live in the real world or you would be aware that by definition your god is a supernatural being, and what is very evident that logic has gone completely out the window.

Here some logic for you, see if you can follow,-
Your god has told you unequivocally that whatever you ask of him, believing he will do it, will be done. Okey dokey by your logic you believe that your god can cure a bad back as you've already stated, however you clearly don't believe that your god can regenerate a limb.

Here's another example of not living in the real world logic, you believe that your god will cure a bad back should you so ask, which is fine as he did promise you this, remember the whatsoever bit? okey dokey and being a nice guy you ask him to sort out your mates bad back all well and good.

Here's the problem my friend, logic would dictate that if you could ask for "whatever" being a decent kind of dude, you wouldn't ask for your mates backache to be cured you'd ask for an end to backache or an end to to sickness. "Whatsoever" means what it says or nothing at all, mustard seed means faith is faith, not varying degrees of believing in someting without evidence, you either believe or you don't no half measures with the jesysgod I'm sorry to say.

Jesus talkes about faith as big as a mustard seed and he also talkes about having enough fairh to move mountains and what about the gifts of the spirit, Faith is one of them, because god knows we sometimes need more faith than we have. this is why it is a gift to be used whenever he gives it to us.
So you see, all your fancy play on words does not work my friend and you know less than you thought you did.

Well, yes I would as a matter fact is that to much to ask of someone who it's claimed did that sort of thing before tea ?

forget for a second that you are sitting behind a keyboard and pulling brave words out of thin air.
Say you were sat at the bedside of a child who has just lost a limb and her parents and family were there and you just heard her say "i wish jesus would heal me" Are you telling me that you would say "Excuse me but i know Jesus and he CAN regenerate a new limb for her, Would you like me to pray for her.
Even though you know there has never been a recorded case of jesus ever doing that.
?????????

No I wouldn't , forgiveness doesn't come an varying degrees dude, you're forgiven or your not, no half measures here either, ask and it will be done "Whatsoever" how long can that possibly take ?
Sort myself out ? I'm pretty well sorted thanks for the concern anyhoo.

So now you are as guilt free as Jesus, your heart, mind and soul as squeeky clean as the day you were born.
I will let you into a little secret.
You are not as SORTED as you think you are. We all fall short in Gods eyes.

Second if the jesusgod is supposed to have created the heaven, earth blah blah braught people back from the dead etc, what makes you think he couldn't regenerate a limb?
A gecko can regenerate a limb< I wonder who created the gecko ?
Seems like I have more faith in this fictional character than you do, now that's insane logic don't you think ?

You have more faith in this fictional character ?? Yes that is insane.

The reason you have more faith is because you have..
No knowlege
No experience
and know nothing of the way Jesus uses christians to do his work.
I will give you 7 out of ten for trying though..

This speaks volumes my friend, first off the burden of proof of the reality of the jesusgod is upon you.

I have nothing to proove to you or anyone else. I just tell it the way it is, i'm on a rollercoaster having the time of my life and you are just sat on the fence trying to tell everyone that what they are experiencing isn't true.
If you want to live your life like that, thats fine but don't pretend that you have a clue what others are experiencing. because you don't.

Like they say "I have been there and got the teeshirt"
You haven't.









[edit on 18-3-2009 by jon1]

And yet...I am on a roller coaster as well. The goddess has lifted me so high I could barely breathe.

OT...I am all for that. Jon1 is trying to help but the type of help he is tossing my way sounds arrogant. He thinks he knows my heart and that my heart is God's business but he isn't correct on either account.

1. As I said he does not know my heart

2. What's in my heart isn't God's business. I offered it up to another quite some time ago

And jon, as for the "been there, done that , go the t-shirt" thing...

well what would you say if someone had been to a ministry as you spoke and saw no evidence and no miracle? I am not saying I have so don't get e wrong here but what if someone quoted them? Are they blind to you? Liars?

You see jon, this is a central problem alot of people have with Christians is the perceived arrogance. Imagine the following if you will;

I believe that atoms don't behave as modern physics tells us. In fact, I believe that the space outside of this atmosphere has no quarks or gluons or any other minuscule particles. Now I can't exactly prove this but when another questions me and tells me that doesn't sound right I just say "Well I have experienced it for myself and I know the truth"

This is what people run into with Christians sometimes. Christians know the one and only truth and when the words come out against an atheist or a pagan it sounds like this;

"I know the truth. You don't. Get on my side because if you don't, you're screwed."

It is all about perception. OP in the other topic perceives atheists as insincere and sad creatures when it is clear to myself and others that several atheists are not that way at all.

Meanwhile, some atheists see all Christians as blind little sheep who have an IQ of a rock when it is clear that some of them are warm and caring people.

See the two problems I run into with Christians are lack of humility and judgment.

I could rightly be the nicest and most altruistic person alive but because I am a Pagan, I fall totally short in many ways to some Christians. I could Dr Mother Ghandi Theresa King and I will still never be worthy to them.

Is it truly your job to judge me or is it God's because was pretty sure all the time in Sunday School I heard it was the latter.

On the other hand I see so many proud and boastful Christians out there. Where is the humulity? That is another lesson I remember well.

So in short, no God does not own my heart and I am sorry but if that makes me less of a man or a person, then I guess I will just have to deal with being second best, but I tell you this now, if this is second best than I am sticking to it because my life is amazing in my own eyes and I can sleep well knowing what I have done for others even though millions will judge me for it when it isn't their business to do so.

I love you all...truly do

-Kyo

Originally posted by KyoZero
...I can sleep well knowing what I have done for others even though millions will judge me for it when it isn't their business to do so.

Thanks for the time....


I'd say the same thing I said to moo...

Don't worry about looking around horizonally...xtian have no say in your life...

Look vertically...

Why have you rejected JC?

Who is Iris?

OT

PS: God is glad you help others, don't worry bout your orientation, and do some NT readings, maybe the gospel of mark and the book of ephesians...some answers there I have found....sorry for the yoda speak