Are You Glad Christian Churches are closing?

reply to post by OldThinker


Hi OT,

Sorry I have a habit of doing that, just not so often in threads.

As for the quoting of myself, I'll explain it the best I can in a short space and if anything seems obscure don't hesitate to question me.



"Earth is thy mother" In my beliefs I feel I was born as a result of this beautiful planets eco-system, I believe largely in the theory of evolution. Also I perhaps unknowingly suggest my appreciation of the beauty and wonder of this amazing mass.


"Universe thy father" Again my beliefs lead me to believe, at least as far as I can comprehend that mother earth is a result is some happening within the universe. Directly established through events that happened within our universe.


"the book of science" This points to how I feel Science has answered many questions and all future questions can without doubt be included in and not contradict what scientific studies can explain. Given time all can be answered and used for the good of humanity, up until the limits of our capabilities.


"the only book of revaluations" Suggests how my mind may learn from the documents based on current findings, also allowing for my continually revaluation of how I should step forward. This I could write an essay on.


"thy require" How our current sciences represent the best understandings of mankind, also if slightly studied show morality and good ethics are very much required, reasonable and rational traits of mankind.


"or desire." Along with suggesting continued pursuit of knowledge, show you need not desire anything other than an understanding of being.



The above is only my thinking and representation of my current mood and topics of consideration, it is perhaps very much adaptable dependant on individual circumstances, knowledge, morality and ethics. I couldn’t in such a short time write all of my thinking behind the words, which very much portray my thoughts and knowledge gained throughout life.

It wasn’t in the end conclusive, which is the reason I found the initial consideration and contemplation of the quote so notewrothy. It has left me with varied trains of thought each time I have read it back myself.

How would you consider the words within your mind, I mean not in a psychological analysis of why I wrote it, but what you would feel it means to you personally. I fully understand if you find if non-applicable due to your beliefs.


N


Edit; Revaluations is a play on words of sorts aswell, sure their is no need to explain that one.



[edit on 15-3-2009 by MrAnonUK]

Am i glad churches are closing? No, why?

I believe that churches should be more than a place of worship on a Sunday morning. Many are also a place for the community to gather for other things also.

The church that my wife has just become in charge of is one that has been slowly emptying until it has gotten to the stage where it can't pay the bills to stay open without help from the diocees.

She has been given 3 yrs to try to turn it around or it will go to a part time post, this was six months ago.
I think churches can become stagnent unless you constantly breath new life into them and the way we have done this is to raise funds and we now have a mother and toddler group two days a week,
Another two days see's the top three years from the local school using the hall at lunchtimes, the numbers are low at the moment but doubling over the last three weeks since it was set up.
This was possible because of a £10000 gift that allowed us to buy a variety of game stations, pool tables and other mod cons to keep them occupied instead of hanging around street corners for an hour and a half.
Because of another £5000 grant we have installed a new kitchen because the last one was condemmed as not being fit for use, so now we also have a ' drop in cafe' for people to just come and have a chat and meet people in the community.

Because of all this the church is starting to become alive again and the numbers attending on a Sunday morning are slowly rising.
We count ourelves very fortunate that enough people care about the church that they are willing to donate so much time and money to keep it open.

Bit of a long winded answer to your question but it goes to show that it's not all doom and gloom out there and churches can survive once they become the centre of the community again.

Cheers
jon

Originally posted by MrAnonUK
How would you consider the words within your mind, I mean not in a psychological analysis of why I wrote it, but what you would feel it means to you personally. I fully understand if you find if non-applicable due to your beliefs.

Now that was a nice post...thank you for that. It is good to write down what (and why) we believe...

I agree with you SO much on the amazing granduer (sp?) of the universe/earth...freakin mind-blowing...and the mantra you quoted is thought-provoking...

I guess when it all boils down to my interpretation/slant on it...I do not have as much faith as you....odd way to say it, I know...but where I'm going with it is...I have not been able to wrap my mind around the lack of statistical probability that time and chance could somehow manufacturing the beauty/complexity/etc of what I SEE...and you have/do...that may be the difference...I dunno?

This short video says why I feel this way better than I can...your thoughts on it?

Here's the link... www.youtube.com... ..wait to the graphic comparison at the end..wow!

OT honored!

[edit on 16-3-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by jon1
Because of all this the church is starting to become alive again and the numbers attending on a Sunday morning are slowly rising.
We count ourelves very fortunate that enough people care about the church that they are willing to donate so much time and money to keep it open.

Bit of a long winded answer to your question but it goes to show that it's not all doom and gloom out there and churches can survive once they become the centre of the community again.

No, the long answer was humbling!

I commnend you and your bride for your mission...it sounds fantastic...I appreciate your philosophy of 'ministry'... reaching out is more than preaching...

OT'll say some prayers for you both!!!

You are truly light in darkness...and HE appreciates that!!! Thx for listening to Him!

Church will never fall. God said it wouldn't

The buildings we attend are just buildings that hold the continual sacrafice mentioned in Daniel and malachias and the psalms.


Now we go to recieve this sacrafice on the lips. God said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

satan will not have time and you OT if you are still alive soon will see the rebirth of a new spirit on this world, it will turn Catholic again in large numbers and God will raise many saints.



The movement in this country that wil happen is the antichristian movement that will happen, as the prophecies say the saints will have to flee from the West.

so that's right now.


But again, our church holds the sacrafice mentioned in the OT and NT and it will never fall.

ever.

mark those words.


do you OT know how many eucharistic miracles have taken place over the centuries?

the proof is everywhere.


God bless.

btw I like your spirit.

reply to post by JesusisTruth

do you OT know how many eucharistic miracles have taken place over the centuries?

What miracles were these exactly ? any supporting evidence ?

How do you define a miracle ?

An amputated limb being regenerated, now that is what I would call a miracle.

Over 2000 years ,billions of people, squillions of prayers, you'd have thought that at least one verifiable case of a regenerated limb would have turned up. Sadly not, jesusyahweh god does not seem to have much time for amputees.

Torn up limbs doesn't have to do with the soul, that's what God is concerned for.

If a limb goes away, doesn't mean he will restore it, and furthermore the ones that have no limbs might not believe so God will not do that type of miracle.


The miracle of laciano italy. Scientists have tested the flesh and blood inside the Church in 800 ad after a preist had doubts about the consecration.

it changed into flesh and blood. Scientists tested the blood and flesh to be living flesh 1200 years old or so and rigamortus Ican;t spell) had not set in yet and should have minutes within the blood shed.


this has been going on 100s of times and it never gets the attention like it should, I wonder why.


But anyways, it's up to you to believe, I for one do and Iv'e felt what communion has done for me and my soul.

undescribable.


peace.

reply to post by JesusisTruth

The miracle of laciano italy. Scientists have tested the flesh and blood inside the Church in 800 ad after a preist had doubts about the consecration.

Evidence please ! What scientists ? Please provide names, has this miracle been peer reviewed ? Please provide source material.

Did anyone claim the million dollars from James Randi for proving this supernatural event ?

reply to post by JesusisTruth

Torn up limbs doesn't have to do with the soul, that's what God is concerned for.

So god doesn't have nothing to do with healing the physical body then? Have you notified all the xtians that claim their rash disappeared or tumor shrank overnight etc that these claims are the result of something not god ?

reply to post by moocowman


your posts have nothing to do with the OP's question.
Why not start your own thread on healing then i will give you my 2 cents worth.

Just a thought, rather than derail this one.

Originally posted by jon1
reply to post by moocowman

 

your posts have nothing to do with the OP's question.
Why not start your own thread on healing then i will give you my 2 cents worth.

Just a thought, rather than derail this one.

Lol since when did OT stay with a point ? C'mon even the big guy will admit to his boots of of digression in order to get to the point I'm sure.

Nevertheless fair point, however the lack of any evidence of so called miracles and healing etc, contrary to many extraordinary claims, made by xtians in order to get (or keep) people into churches which is totally misleading.
leads me to conclude that should these churches be forced to operate under the same laws as any other business, they would probably end up being closed down for misrepresentation through misleading advertising.

That being said, I understand that Peter Popoff (isn't he dead yet?) is still raking in the cash so the problem doesn't seem to a building.

reply to post by moocowman



So true! OT's guilty!

You both are doing great...

Although using Peter Popoff as a model of the church is kinda like saying Pop-Warner is the NFL

reply to post by moocowman

however the lack of any evidence of so called miracles and healing

Try visiting a couple of churches that have healing ministrys and you will get all the evidence that you need.
Assuming of course, that everyone you speak to is not a compulsive lier and out to boost thier own ego.
Better still, pop up to the wirral sometime and i will introduce you to people who will give testemony to thier own healing, including my wife.
Mind you, she is a priest and may be telling you outright lies also.
Sometimes we just have to assume that out of all the people that have been healed one way or another by God, one of them may be telling you the truth.

contrary to many extraordinary claims, made by xtians in order to get (or keep) people into churches which is totally misleading.

Most people that are healed in church are members of the congregation and believe it or not have never asked God to heal them before. It takes a lot of faith and courage to step out of your comfort zone and ask for healing prayer.
Remember, God does not heal everyone and the last thing on these peoples minds is getting more bums on seats on a Sunday morning, and if they do get healing they don't shout it from the rooftops in case people like you hear them.
Being healed by God is a very personal and humbling thing to happen to you.
This is the real world and not the one that you have fabricated in your head for whatever reason you may have.

leads me to conclude that should these churches be forced to operate under the same laws as any other business, they would probably end up being closed down for misrepresentation through misleading advertising.

I have never yet heard of any christian saying, come for healing prayer and you WILL be healed.

It seems that your reality and the one i live in are totally seperate ones.

reply to post by jon1

Try visiting a couple of churches that have healing ministrys and you will get all the evidence that you need.

Well according to many of your xtian friends healing was reserved for the apostles.

JesusisTruth has this to say about it --

Torn up limbs doesn't have to do with the soul, that's what God is concerned for.

So it would seem that xtinity is pretty well split on the reality of healing to begin with.

Taking a trip to the Wirral for hearsay is not going to prove anything, I think even OT would agree to that.

If xtianity does really want to save it's churches, then the smart idea would be to take it's healing power and walk into the nearest pediatric hospital hospital and heal these children.

This would be an act of pure compassion not an attempt to prove something (just in case do not tempt the lord is used as an excuse, for the lack of credible evidence)

If xtians really want to save their churches ? Develop a united front and set an example, show the rest of us infidels that the way you live is cool.
If you're living a life happy and free of sickness, then no proselytizing is required, the rest of the sheeple will flock to you to learn your secret.

A question I ask myself - If jesus were real and here now, and a child that had had her leg blown off by a land mine, asked jesus to heal her leg so that she may skip once more, would jesus refuse ?

If the answer to that is no, then jesus chooses not to be compassionate to this child, which would be impossible if jesus is god and god is love which is compassion.

If jesus would show compassion to the child, then jesus clearly is not here now as many claim, for the simple reason that there are so many one limbless/sick children.

Whatever type of excuses and rationalisation that xtians create for jesus not responding to the child's plea, does not solve the problem.

If I can drive to the Wirral and meet a child that has been cured of measles for example, by the laying on of hands, then logically the pediatrics wing of a hospital in the Wirral should be empty. The Wirral one would expect, would have the lowest child mortality rate in the country. I am led to believe that jesus did not discriminate against non xtians, especially children that cannot sin , so there seems to be no excuse available.

If you want your churches to be emptied, then keep doing what your doing, fine by me. But if you want to make some changes in your lives, then you have to make some changes in your lives and reevaluate why you believe the things you do.


[edit on 17-3-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by OldThinker


If we combine the followers of Popoff and let's say Ted Haggard, at a guess we could estimate at least half a million people believing in these pair of scoundrels version of xtianity.

If half a million people have 10 friends and 10 acquaintances that's 10 million people hearing the Ted and Pete version of xtianity .

There's only 3 million people in my country dude ! the Ted and Pete show is very scary.

reply to post by moocowman

Well according to many of your xtian friends healing was reserved for the apostles.

JesusisTruth has this to say about it --


Torn up limbs doesn't have to do with the soul, that's what God is concerned for.

Then these people have never been to a healing service or ever been witness to a healing.
Shame really.

If xtianity does really want to save it's churches, then the smart idea would be to take it's healing power and walk into the nearest pediatric hospital hospital and heal these children.

This would be an act of pure compassion not an attempt to prove something (just in case do not tempt the lord is used as an excuse, for the lack of credible evidence)

Good idea, i would love to do that and i am sure the children would like Jesus to heal them also.
Just one teeny weeny problem though, Adults with no faith. check out this thread to see how closed minded some people can be.....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Another thing, God won't push his will on anybody and that is why people went to Jesus for healing and if you want healing prayer in church you have to ask for it.
Faith in Gods healing power plays a big part in healing someone and even then many more are not healed than are.
If i pray for 10 people and only one recievces healing then it is good enough for me and i will continue to do it.

If xtians really want to save their churches ? Develop a united front and set an example, show the rest of us infidels that the way you live is cool.
If you're living a life happy and free of sickness, then no proselytizing is required, the rest of the sheeple will flock to you to learn your secret.

Oh, what a perfect world that would be.
I live my life the same way as most of the UK population in relation to going out for a few beers, having a good time and yes, cut me up in the traffic and you can guarentee when i put my hands up, i wont be praying for you.
Yes, even christians sin because we are all just human but i wouldn't resort to voilence because of Gods teaching.

I love the "happy life and free of sickness" bit.
Running a church is a seven day a week job and at the moment my wife is having a week off work through stress, doctors orders.
I keep telling her to empty her diary a little but she ignores me and says "Who else is going to do it".
It doesn't help that my cancer has come back after having radiotherepy last year.
Yes i know, ironic isn't it that a christian who prays for healing for others has got cancer, not to mention the stroke a couple of years back.
So as you see we are not anybody special, we just believe in God and do his works to the best of our abillity. We try not to sin to much but that is an impossible task as only Jesus was made perfect.
Yes, if i stick my finger in a light socket, i will get a shock to.
No perks in this job i'm afraid.

A question I ask myself - If jesus were real and here now, and a child that had had her leg blown off by a land mine, asked jesus to heal her leg so that she may skip once more, would jesus refuse ?

Good question, and i wish i could answer that for you. The only thing i can say is that Jesus would heal crippled arms and legs but he never materialized flesh and bone out of thin air. He didn't seem to do it during his ministry here on earth and i honestly don't know why not.
BUT, just because we don't have an answer for something does not make him out to be false. we just don't have the answers to some things and we never will.

If I can drive to the Wirral and meet a child that has been cured of measles for example, by the laying on of hands, then logically the pediatrics wing of a hospital in the Wirral should be empty. The Wirral one would expect, would have the lowest child mortality rate in the country. I am led to believe that jesus did not discriminate against non xtians, especially children that cannot sin , so there seems to be no excuse available.

Healing is not a "Roll up--Roll up" Queue up here for you daily healing session. Satisfaction guarenteed kind of thing.
As i have stated before, only a small percent of people are healed that go up for prayer no matter who they are and we are all sinners no matter what, because we are human.
One thing that i have learnt is that if you pray a prayer for one person and the prayer is answered, then you say the exact same prayer for another person, the end results are never the same.
Healing is a very complicated thing and not many christians say these sort of prayers and you know why? Most people say, "but what if the prayer doesn't work".
They can't get over the fact that the healing has nothing to do with them and it is Jesus alone that has the power to heal.
If only it were as easy as you think it should be..

If you want your churches to be emptied, then keep doing what your doing, fine by me. But if you want to make some changes in your lives, then you have to make some changes in your lives and reevaluate why you believe the things you do.

So what would you have us do, Act like all is well in the world. I'm sorry but i live on the same planet as you do and at the end of the day it is between you and God, not you and me.
I don't push Jesus down anyones throat but if someone comes to me with questions then i will answer them the best i can. if someone wants a shoulder to cry on or wants prayer for healing for themselves or a loved one, then i will be here for them.
Most of any christians ministry is done outside of church and is not seen by others.
This is what being a christian is about.

Anyway all this is how i see it and what i have learnt through experience.

looks like we are on other side of the coin to each other here so i will come to a close as we will never convince each other of our own beliefs.

Nice having a chat though.
jon.

reply to post by moocowman



I pray they are not that influencial...hopefully your are using funny math?

OT

mocowoman.....

Go research the miracles of laciona italy, and research padre pio who cured a blind woman with no pupils.

www.youtube.com...


other then that you will have to do research yourself.


Now as for the limbs. what i meant was that God cures tumors and sickness sometimes because.

1. The people have faith.

2. Because it leads to death and he grants more time.


People with lost limbs can still live, it doesn't effect their soul or kill them. He gives us free will to decide whether to believe or not in miracles.

He's not just gonna hand out miracles and wrap them in presents.


I too have witnessed miracles, but my life is not normal, so you would have to wait to see my life in review to see what i mean.


God is concerned for the soul and some things don't effect the soul like others do.


peace.

reply to post by jon1

Another thing, God won't push his will on anybody

Then why does god have commandments ?

And why do xtians insist on trying to prevent gay people marrying etc ?

That's definately pushing.

reply to post by JesusisTruth

mocowoman.....

This deliberate mistake you made speaks volumes !


Nevertheless, when I asked why god chooses not to heal amputees your response was this -

Torn up limbs doesn't have to do with the soul, that's what God is concerned for.

Now you change your tack to this -

Now as for the limbs. what i meant was that God cures tumors and sickness sometimes because. 1. The people have faith. 2. Because it leads to death and he grants more time.

Which contradicts this -


Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.


And this -

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we find the same thing:
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I

And this -

In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer


Obviously either jesus was lying or not a single human in over 2000 years has asked jesus that an amputee be healed.

There's no ifs or buts about this, those verses are quite easy to understand and unambitious - "whatsoever " means "Whatsoever"


When it comes to miracles it's all well and good posting a youtube link a hearsay tale of a miracle of regenerated eyes. But the burden of proof is upon you not me.


Perhaps this is why churches are being ripped down perhaps people are waking up to the big lie.