Our eventual fait?

This is just a little food for thought. Pretend for a minute that we won't blow our selves up, polute the air untill we die, get hit by an asteroid, have an apocolypse, or anything else of the sort. Pretend that the earth will be around for a couple thousand more years. I was thinking...would'nt it be weird if America was completely gone? I mean, it would have to happen. Whenever I used to think of the future, I would think of people in school speaking english, american people usually. but what if the english language was completely gone? The reagion where america is now was just a bunch of other countries. Imagine them discussing "America's Legacy" like we discuss the Romans. "And in the year 2,000 A.D., a man named George Bush was elected to a country called America." Just something to think about

No nation lasts forever, althou i would wish our nation would, but just like the cycle of life for all living things, nations also follow this cycle. This is nothing new, and whoever thinks any nation in the world is going to exist forever the same way they are now, they are deluding themselves.

Not to seem callous, but I would deal with it.

I might mourn for a little while, but essentially I believe I would (will ?) end up a lot happier. No more stupid laws, pissy rules and regulations that do nothing but curtail individuality and basic freedoms, no more stupid #ing beaurocracy (sp?), no more herd demanding that the rest (us black sheeps) follow and punishing us when we don't. Not to mention the inevitable collapse of the financial/banking system( which IMHO, happens to be one of the biggest blights on humanity there is)

Yeh..I think I could deal. In fact, I think I would probably even celebrate.

As much as I love America, I could definitely exist without it. I would love to see more power put directly into the hands of people to govern their own existence on certain issues than I think the federal government is ready to give us. But when I see the future, I tend to see the breakdown of the established political system instead of a bunch of separate countries/republics. I guess I see us going more towards anarchy before that happens.

I might mourn for a little while, but essentially I believe I would (will ?) end up a lot happier. No more stupid laws, pissy rules and regulations that do nothing but curtail individuality and basic freedoms....

Well, perhaps i better spoil your dream right now so you will be prepared when it happens in the future.

Laws are needed in any and all societies, when there are no laws in a society what rules is anarchy and the law of the fittest, which in itself is also a law.

In anarchy people would do whatever they want with no regards for the "individual rights of others" maiming, raping, killing etc, etc, just to satisfy "their wants."

I prefer myself a form of law that seeks balance between ensuring the right of individuals, but assuring the rights of others also, even those who some people call weak. When someone's supposed "individual right" can put another person at risk, then that individual right should be restrained for the good of the community/other people. For example, speed limits. These laws are there for a reason.

When someone doesn't see the need for laws that person has no regards towards the wellbeing of others, in another word, that person is selfish, because he/she is only concerned with what he/she wants to do, not caring if others can get hurt or are at risk in the process.

In order to have this balance some individual laws have to be forbidden or restricted, because many people cannot control themselves and will harm others doing whatever they want to do. Even with laws in place many times people have killed, maimed and made others suffer because of their lack of self control.

So as you can see, you will never be able to get away from the "Law," because in one way or another, there will always be laws.

I agree that anarchy would not be fun. There are very few people who could exist in an Anarchist state. I also agree that laws exist for a reason. If murder were legal, there would be very few people who would resist killing their enemies just because they though it was morally wrong.

I don�t think that people will ever fall into complete anarchy; justice has been around since long before laws were written. People will still be held accountable for what they do, whether by their peers or a court. Maybe I put more faith in the human race to regulate itself that I should, but I think if the government of the United States failed, people would be able to survive.

It does provide a good argument for being a self-reliant individual, though. What would you do if Mr. Policeman wasn�t around tomorrow to keep someone from coming into your house and raping your wife? Would you be able to protect her? Would you be able to protect your life should the day come that you have to? I hope that things never come to that, but it is a possibility and something that people should be prepared for.

Originally posted by Muaddib


When someone doesn't see the need for laws that person has no regards towards the wellbeing of others, in another word, that person is selfish, because he/she is only concerned with what he/she wants to do, not caring if others can get hurt or are at risk in the process.

I have to take issue with that statement Muaddib. I most certainly am NOT selfish and quite frankly I consider myself to care more about the welfare of other people then most people I see out there on the streets and in my daily life (with the exception of my Pixy Husband of course). In fact, I've been told more often then not that I carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, and I've cried REAL tears for the pain of this world and the suffering that goes on and so yes, it does offend me that anybody could consider me selfish.

How is it that you could equate not needing laws with selfishness ? It depends on the law, doesn't it ? I never said I condoned murder or rape or robbing your neighbor blind and I never in a million years would.

But there ARE an awful number of laws out there that are designed for the simple idea of 'rules for the sake of rules' and this is what I was trying to get at. We (the US anyway), are a way overregulated country. We have rules for pretty much absolutely everything, and as far as I can tell, most of them are designed to protect the rich from the poor and/or to keep us little people in control and living in perpetual fear of the man and this is what I was basically speaking of before.

The only 'Law" I believe in and support 100% is Karma. I value mine and respect humanity enough to never purposely harm another.

How long has "England" been a nation ?????

A thousand years ? Longer ?

America has been a nation for over 225 years I think we might have a few hundred to go.

But yes I agree EVENTUALLY all things end. And so will our great nation also end.

Kayem, the way you responded you made me think you did not want "any" laws. I do agree that there are "some laws" we could live without, but I don't know that many.

Not too long ago a member was hoping that it won't be long before all drugs are legal. I don't believe this will help any nation at all, I am in favour of laws against illegal drugs. I would not want my kids to be raised in such an environment where you see people shooting drugs on their arms in the streets and the police can't do nothing about it. illegal drugs tend to make people unaware of the harm they can cause to others or to themselves.

Some people don't even need drugs to only think in what they want and not care when their actions harm others. In their minds it is justified because they are free to do what they want, no matter the consequences of their actions. This is why we need laws.

My response was directed to the people who think like this. If you only think that certain laws are the ones that we could live without, and the laws you would think we don't need will not interfere with the rights of others, then yes I agree with you and I apologize if you felt insulted by my post.

There are laws we could certainly live without.
For example, when an oil company can be charged only up to to 100,000 dollars a day (I think its 100,000) for dumping waste in the oceans.
These oil companies are actually saving more money by dumping their waste in the ocean and paying that fine than trying to find another way which will be friendlier to the environment and not as harmful.

But any laws that makes sure the rights of others is as important or even more important in some cases than the rights of one individual, should be kept by our nation and all others, or even improve these laws, imho.

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Muaddib]

I would deal with it and move on (if im still going to be alive) just like Kayem said

If there ever came the time when there were no laws, then we will see anarchy at its worse, and only those willing to live by the knife/gun will be able to survive.

It wouldn't be a pretty sight.

Yeh, but the thing is Muaddib, is it really all that "pretty" now with the way things stand ?

You say we need certain laws, and indeed we do. What we don't need in my opinion are laws regulating everything almost up to the point where they interfere with our breathing. I'm talking about the "we take care of you " laws such as seatbelts, anti-drug laws etc etc.

I don't need to be taken care of. What's more I find I get my back up quite quickly when society tries to nose in on my private life by making laws which interfere where they have no business interfering.

I don't take drugs these days (I've been around the block in my youth though) but I'll be the first to defend an adults right to do as he or she sees fit in their own home.

Did you know that alcohol and cigarettes kill more people every year then all the illegal drugs combined, Muaddib ?

It is these kinds of nonsensical laws that don't make any SENSE at all that I feel we could do without. I have this funny thing I like to do. It's called 'thinking' and I know that makes me a nightmare of a good 'citizen'. but there it is (some comedian gets credit for that line, but i'm not sure who it is). If it doesn't make sense in any way, or is contradictory and/or hypocritical, then I don't buy into it. Plain and simple.

The only other thing I have to say on the subject (unless you want to continue the debate, hey, I'll play, that's what we're here for) is what I feel is a very important point as far as 'laws' go:

Once those laws are fairly and evenly applied to EVERYONE then I may relax my stance on this topic, but not until then.

I would mourn the loss of life, but as for the administration of control, I would rejoice at their ending.

It is my heartfelt belief that if everyone received education as to the true nature of humanity, we would need few laws at all. If everyone learned from an early age that every human being is worth something and that to harm one is to harm yourself.

That's why I am against violence. It not only hurts the people I attack, but my conscience tears me into pieces. There has to be another way.

Yes, we will always need people (police) purely to defend us from those who cannot or will not accept this education (serial killers, sociopaths etc). But these police should be there to protect us from these few malcontents ... not to control us on behalf of the elite.

I'm talking about the "we take care of you " laws such as seatbelts, anti-drug laws etc etc.

Seabelts have been proven to save lives, and althou in "some" instances people can die if their car falls into a canal, because of their fear not letting them take off the seatbelt, it beats not having a seatbelt on and crashing through the car's windshield and then finally for the body to crash against the pavement. Not only does it save your life, but it also avoids having your own body crash against the windshield of another car injuring another person or causing greater damage.

Antidrug laws....if you mean as in illegal drugs.....
Sorry but you don't have my vote on this one. Illegal drugs pose a direct threat to other people. Illegal drugs can distort "reality" making people think they can do anything they want with no consequences to their actions, slowing the physical response of the body in some cases, or making people hyper and making them resort to violence against others.

If someone is doing it in their own homes and they don't do anything, like driving while still under the influence, I guess is your life.

But if people grow pot or have large quantities of any illegal drugs...sorry, once again, you don't have my vote, you are trying to make money off an illegal drug and endangering the lives of others.

Did you know that alcohol and cigarettes kill more people every year then all the illegal drugs combined, Muaddib ?

Althou I do agree that at least cigarrettes are really harmful to other people in the "longrun" as second hand smoking. Cigarrettes do not pose "a direct threat" to the lives of others. In the longrun it can produce cancer to second hand smokers, and the smokers themselves. That's why now there are new laws in which people cannot smoke in enclosed public areas.

Smoking a regular cigarrette does not slow your body's response, or make you hyper to a point where you will actually "attack other people".

I hate cigarrettes, but as long as it doesn't directly affect my family or me, people can smoke and kill themselves if they want.

Drinking moderately is not harmful towards anyone at all, this is why alcohol is not illegal, but if you get drunk and drive...that's another story, now you are endangering the lives of others. There is a law against this also...

You want the government to make alcohol and smoking regular cigarretes illegal too?

It is my heartfelt belief that if everyone received education as to the true nature of humanity, we would need few laws at all.

There is a problem with this. First of all, many cultures have a different view in what is right and what is wrong, so which one of those views will "everyone" be taught to live by?

Secondly, it is my belief, as long as your views does not affect others, my family and myself included, that do not agree with your views in the first place, that people should believe and do what they want.

But when something like 9/11 happens where a group of extremists think they can make a statement, showing their own opinions about faith and such by killing thousands of people, then I have a problem.

As for only having a few laws...no big society will work properly without having "many" rules and laws. As an example, once again, the rules of traffic and traffic laws. There is quite a few of those now, imagine if most people will decide not to follow them, it would be chaos.


[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Muaddib]

As much as i dislike the united states, the collapse of that country will have a domino effect on all other world economies, and we would all wind up in a long lasting depression, millions would loose their jobs world wide;

electricity and food would become a priviledge for the few, and riots and revolutions will occur everywhere

I know full well we'll never agree on this issue Muaddib, and that's fine. We can agree to disagree though, right ?

Again, as soon as the laws we have are fairly and evenly applied to everyone then I may chance my stance.

But as long as those with money are allowed to pretty much get away with anything they want, while we have incredibly stupid crap like the three strikes BS in California, where poor people are rotting in prisons for minor transgressions such as stealing a piece of pizza, you will never convince me that we need laws such as these.

A good majority of laws are the result of power-crazed minds trying to controll the little guy, with the objective being protective of the rich.

As I said, Hey, let's see some fairness in the way the laws are applied and I might change my mind.

By the way, cigarette smoke does indeed dull your responses. Nicotine literally clogs up the brain and does slow you to a point. Add to that the number of people who drop cigarettes while driving placing themselves and others in danger. So yes, I would say cigarettes are dangerous, especially given the fact that nicotine is more addictive then heroin.

And as to how I know these facts about cigarettes, I quit smoking 3 weeks ago and the difference between how I felt then (sluggish, physically and mentally) and how I feel now is monumental. Plus I dropped my fair share of smokes, not to mention poisoned enough innocent passersby with my cigarette smoke to know that it CAN'T be a healthy thing.

Secondhand smoke isn't dangerous ?
This can't be healthy

Lastly, I was stuck in a smoking envirnment yesterday which left me feeling incredibly sick because of it. So please don't tell me that it's ok for smoking to be legal while other drugs remain illegal.

Again...the fairness principal applies: Outlaw ALL harmful drugs or outlaw none of them.



[Edited on 19-4-2004 by KayEm]

Lastly, I was stuck in a smoking envirnment yesterday which left me feeling incredibly sick because of it. So please don't tell me that it's ok for smoking to be legal while other drugs remain illegal.

Hey..if it was up to me, its fine if smoking is made an illegal drug. At least the laws have improved, with time, and these laws are making sure that "as many people as possible" are not affected by second hand smoking.

As for smoking regular cigarettes groging and impairing driving abilities...I haven't heard about accidents caused by driving under the influence of cigarettes.

As for agreeing that we can disagree... sure, I always agree to that.

Well, I highly doubt that America would fall in our lifetime. If it did fall, I imagine it would be like all of the other countries that don't exist anymore.. Taken over by another country(s). Most likely if that happened, most of us U.S. citizens would be dead. I know alot of countries hate us...

it is 'a lot', can't people understand that? As for America falling, well, as it is probably the most hated country on earth, people worldwide wouldn't be too concerned. Although the economic side affect would be more troublesome