DHS Proposes U.S. Gun Laws to Fight Mexican Drug Cartel Violence

Originally posted by awake_awoke
reply to post by Primordial

 

......

So those regulations should not be strengthened? You don't think there are people in this country who, if offered an obscene amount of money (and they are), they would purchase these guns for the cartels?

Sure they would, but the point is they are already breaking the law. What are more laws going to do besides make it harder for law abiding people to buy a gun.

Originally posted by nenothtu


3) Can someone on the opposition team point out to me what type of US made gun the cartels are using to cut people's heads off with? If you think they might be using knives for that sort of thing, when will DHS decide to confiscate our steak knives to "protect the border"? What about the Chinese steak knives?

Well I wouldn't call myself your opposition, because I too support the right to bear arms as given to U.S citizens in the Constitution, and I do believe, as has been the case as of recent in Great Britain, violence will always rear its ugly head even when firearms are banned. Anytime things are banned, organized crime appears and profits off illegal transactions.

However,

Even if you don't believe the statistics (just because you wish not too) and you cannot come up with any other statistical data I will stick with the 90% + figure in regards to U.S arms in Mexico.
Do not forget due to these drug cartels Phoenix has become #2 IN THE WORLD for kidnappings. Are those not your fellow citizens? Do they not have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Does our government not have the responsibility to protect them?

After careful analysis of the Mexico situation that has been brewing for quite some time-No, I do not think that this escalating situation is a plot by the NWO to take away all responsible owners' guns. (I'm not saying that won't come later-ha!)
But I will say that due to irresponsibility of certain manufacturers and outlets of sale American Citizens are suffering, Mexican Citizens are suffering, and so are Police on both sides.
I will not be so callous as to ignore that.

reply to post by disfugured


Well what you have to understand is "the law is the law" If they come knocking on your door demanding your firearms, you better do as they say, otherwise you are BREAKING THE LAW, by not doing what you are ordered to do. It doesn't matter if you disagree with gun bans or not. It's the law, YOU FOLLOW IT!

[edit on 13-3-2009 by doorbell412]

reply to post by awake_awoke


Venezuela has just opened an arms factory with brand new machinery that makes the new versions of the AK, payed for and setup by our friends in China, Imbel in Brazil makes the G-3 and AK! I would not be so quick to blame any US manufacturer for building the weapons that are seen south of our border. At least three countries have the rights to build the M-16 for their troops! If your not familiar with how our ATFE works, I am, and for any dealer to try to sell any arms off the books is damn near impossible! Indvidual sales are another thing but even then the trail would be large enough for anyone to follow and way to much of a pain to undertake. Its much easier to buy from their southern neighbors, cheaper too!

Zindo

Originally posted by awake_awoke

Originally posted by nenothtu


3) Can someone on the opposition team point out to me what type of US made gun the cartels are using to cut people's heads off with? If you think they might be using knives for that sort of thing, when will DHS decide to confiscate our steak knives to "protect the border"? What about the Chinese steak knives?

Well I wouldn't call myself your opposition, because I too support the right to bear arms as given to U.S citizens in the Constitution, and I do believe, as has been the case as of recent in Great Britain, violence will always rear its ugly head even when firearms are banned. Anytime things are banned, organized crime appears and profits off illegal transactions.

However,

Even if you don't believe the statistics (just because you wish not too) and you cannot come up with any other statistical data I will stick with the 90% + figure in regards to U.S arms in Mexico.
Do not forget due to these drug cartels Phoenix has become #2 IN THE WORLD for kidnappings. Are those not your fellow citizens? Do they not have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Does our government not have the responsibility to protect them?

After careful analysis of the Mexico situation that has been brewing for quite some time-No, I do not think that this escalating situation is a plot by the NWO to take away all responsible owners' guns. (I'm not saying that won't come later-ha!)
But I will say that due to irresponsibility of certain manufacturers and outlets of sale American Citizens are suffering, Mexican Citizens are suffering, and so are Police on both sides.
I will not be so callous as to ignore that.

Agreed, a difference of opinion doesn't necessarily make one the opposition.

I don't believe the situation is a NWO plot aimed at US citizens, either. I do, however, believe that those in power now will not waste a crisis, and will attempt to use this one to further restrict us, when further restrictions are unnecessary and counter-productive - well, from a citizen's point of view, anyhow. From "the man's" point of view, I can see how they could turn this to be quite productive - for them.

Yes, the one of the government's proper functions would be to protect the citizenry. They just need to decide which country they want to protect the citizenry of, and how best to do that. It's my opinion that disarming, or under-arming, the citizens of the US, for the benefit of a foreign country, is not the way to go about it.

In order to "protect" us, by disarming us, they would have to assign a police officer to each of us, whose soul duty in life, 24/7, would be our individual defense. Barring that, I know, at least in my case, the only person who is with me at all times is - me.

It would be irresponsible of us, as citizens, to expect the police to protect us at all times, even when we may not know ourselves that danger is upon us until it stares us in the face. If we don't know it there until that very second, how can we expect the police to know it, and be on the scene at that instant?

In all but one of the confrontations I've been involved in, in the US, the police did not show up until WAY after the fact, and I do not fault them for that. In that one case, a deputy showed up DURING the confrontation only because we called 911, and there happened to be a deputy nearby. He saved a life that night, and I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to specify whose. I will say that the other fella went to jail, and I never saw him again. The point is, had I not been prepared to defend myself and my family, I might not be typing this now. This is what our fearless leaders really don't like.

Yup, the government has a reasonable responsibility to protect "us", as a group, but not as individuals. In my opinion, that would be best served, in the case of Phoenix, by securing the border.

nenothtu out

reply to post by ZindoDoone


I'd read where Venezuela sealed a deal with Russia for something on the order of 500,000 AK74M's, as well as some aircraft and armor, but this is the first I'd heard of the Chinese deal. Doesn't Venezuela have a vested interest in the demise of "American Running-Dog Imperialism", or some such drivel?

Sheds a new light on those Chinese Type 56's I've been seeing in the news reports from the drug wars...

nenothtu out

Yes, as usual taking away the rights of law abiding citizens, another government by pretext directive.

Just why in the light of history do these people care to take away second amendment rights? Because they are either well meaning and to be succeeded by ill meaning bureaucrats. Look at the slaughters of the 20th century will you? In every single case, they were preceded by the same pattern.

The American people cannot be convinced by half truths and outright lies anymore.

Drugs are illegal and you can find them on any street corner. Why should outlawing guns have a different result?

They can come up with whatever reason they want, americans have over 220 million guns, way more than the military even has, now if you know about the ammo shortages, there is enough ammo and firepower in the country to absolutely take over. The leadership of France new before they were captured and beheaded that they were pushing things, my guess is ours knows the same.

I would agree that any politician, on either side of the aisle, has always tried to profit off a crisis that falls in their favor.

On the question of "taking away law-abiding citizens' second amendment rights":

Federal law allows unlicensed sellers to sell without a backround check at gun shows or other private venues.
Federal law doesn't regulate the number of guns that can be sold at any one time.
And these guns are apparently the same ones used by American Drug Cartels and gangs as well?

How do backround checks (where Brady Backround records have to be destroyed in 24 hours? Am I correct?) and buying only one gun per day....prevent you from protecting yourself and your family?

Actually, I run two Mexican drug cartels. One of them uses all Glocks and AR15's, the other uses H&K USP's and G36's. That way I know if they've been shooting people they shouldn't! I get my weapons via the USA, because border controls are so lax, it would be stupid to risk them any other way. I don't even have to line any pockets - just sneak them through. The US govt. is beureaucratic and out of touch, and frankly, so faking of its border security, it is easier getting boxes of guns into Mexico, than it is getting crates of drugs into the USA (which is pretty easy, if you cut it with the CIA).
Anyway, we only use American ammo, coz it is pretty good.
BTW, this was all total lies - well, most of it was. The bit that was true was about the government being useless at border security. Oh, and the CIA importing drugs.


[edit on 13-3-2009 by cruzion]

Originally posted by awake_awoke

But I will say that due to irresponsibility of certain manufacturers and outlets of sale American Citizens are suffering, Mexican Citizens are suffering, and so are Police on both sides.
I will not be so callous as to ignore that.

Give me one Gun Shop ("Outlet of Sale" as you put it) within the United States that has the ability to massively arm a group of Guerillas with MIL Grade Equipment, nearly on par with what our Personnel are currently using in OIF, and OEF? It is simply not happening.

The Cartels receive most of their weaponry from Overseas sources, and Latin America. The Mexican Officials only blame the United States for their problems, because they need to look at themselves for the blame, but like any number of corrupt Politicians before them, they seek re-election and thus a Power Hold, and so the Truth Hurts in more than one way.

Mexico can start by keeping their problems on THEIR side of the Border.

"It doesn't matter if you disagree with gun bans or not. It's the law, YOU FOLLOW IT!"

Actually, these laws are for guinea pigs like you to follow. No offense, but you can take your LAW and shove it buddy.

reply to post by nenothtu

I don't believe the situation is a NWO plot aimed at US citizens, either. I do, however, believe that those in power now will not waste a crisis, and will attempt to use this one to further restrict us, when further restrictions are unnecessary and counter-productive - well, from a citizen's point of view, anyhow. From "the man's" point of view, I can see how they could turn this to be quite productive - for them.

I believe TPTB have a very definate reason for disarming the US citizen at this time. The are planning to take complete control of our food supply. Farmers are NOT happy about it, and many are interrelated in rural areas. Would you want to drive up to a farm and confiscate a farmer's land animals, vehicles etc and haul him off to prison BEFORE you take his guns and his neighbors guns away??

No this is not in the news but it is happening.

Anti-Farming Bill (food safety)

Farm raid have already been happening. Its like they are training for the big push.

“I am sitting here at 1:00 am, and trying to figure out what has happened to our little farm. Last Tuesday morning at 5:30 am a Game Warden arrested my husband... That was followed by agents from the USDA swooping in (9 different vehicles) and beginning the slaughter of our hogs. It is almost one week later, and it is still going on. We have 24 hour armed surveillance....WE are being treated like drug dealers by the agents. The Game Wardens are stunned at the way this all happened and have said they have never seen anything like this. Even one of the USDA’s agents from Ohio said he has never witnessed anything like what is going on here - Cindi Henshaw

Just to say several us from Amherst County went down to the Henshaw’s yesterday evening(October 2,2006) to give our support. We can confirm Cindi’s comments....
I am a retired magistrate and am having a real hard time getting my head around why Danny was arrested to begin with. - Barbara Jean Pryor — October 3, 2006

Farm Raid

Organic Food Coop Raid

Milk Raid

Nature's juice raid

".... We have never sold raw or pasteurized milk or products  in any form... I even make cheese to share and give to friends and family and take to potlucks etc. (Gosh.. I must be a real criminal)

Today a state Ag inspector and two county officials show up and scare the bee-jesus out of me. First they accuse me of selling products and milk, then explain that even “giving milk products away” is illegal in California. Now everything is pasteurized, but it is illegal to share milk products in any form! They explained it was even ILLEGAL to give it to my own children if they did not live under my roof! I can’t even take a lasagna dish to my grown sons home without risk of being fined, arrested and or jailed! This is OUTRAGIOUS!!!!....."  Donna Tue Aug 12 2008

This maybe what sparks off ... Well I better not say

Originally posted by awake_awoke
I would agree that any politician, on either side of the aisle, has always tried to profit off a crisis that falls in their favor.

On the question of "taking away law-abiding citizens' second amendment rights":

Federal law allows unlicensed sellers to sell without a backround check at gun shows or other private venues.
Federal law doesn't regulate the number of guns that can be sold at any one time.
And these guns are apparently the same ones used by American Drug Cartels and gangs as well?

How do backround checks (where Brady Backround records have to be destroyed in 24 hours? Am I correct?) and buying only one gun per day....prevent you from protecting yourself and your family?

I think we may be talking apples and oranges here. Most of what you've cited applies, for the most part, and in most states, to handguns. I generally only dealt with handguns at my last job. This gun ban would appear to be aimed at "deadlier" (read "more efficient") weapons. I just saw a news report saying that Mexican police and military were being "outgunned" by the drug cartels. It's difficult to outgun a man with a G3 when all you have is a revolver.

But, to answer your question, how could this could "prevent" effective self protection - that depends entirely on WHO I am defending myself from, and HOW I choose to protect myself.

In the example I provided above, when the deputy came to the rescue, I was armed with a 9-shot, 12 gauge, laser sighted riot gun. That was a FAR more effective, FAR more lethal weapon than this dinky little AK in my avatar, for the situation I was in. Yet it was FAR less regulated than this AK. Go figure.

However, against multiple opponents at longer range, I'll bet my life on the AK. And the "semi-auto assault rifles" are what they are targeting - per Eric Holder, Obama's AG. I'm afraid I must take umbrage at that infringement.

Handguns, on the other hand, are my weapon of last resort, if I can't get my hands on anything else at the time. I don't see myself pushing the purchase limit on them, but it's not all about me, any more than it's about hunters.

Maybe we could limit weapon sales to the cartels to handguns, and give the Mexican army and police long arms for serious fighting? See, the handguns that immediately come to mind when the accusation of "US guns going south of the border" is levelled are not the problem, and they won't be the main target of the administration either.

nenothtu out

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen



I believe it is less than 1% of all legitimate gun retailers supply most of them. As well as the loopholes in Federal law relating to gun shows or private points of sale.

Unfortunately, no matter how much I search, I have been unsucessful in finding any statstical data to the contrary. Apparently all sources agree on this number at the present moment.
I would agree that many of the higher-grade ones come from other corrupt nations (Venezuela would make sense, agreed.) In fact, I'd even say probably as well as corrupt police and government officials in Mexico itself!

Nobody should punish the legitimate, safe, honest gun distributors and owners of this country. However, any American providing this weaponry illegally TO ANYONE whether it be from Mexico or their own country should spend the rest of their life in jail.

Bottom Line: If you are a responsible gun owner-why should any change in law regarding sales in gun shows/private settings or amounts sold in one day concern you?

I would also prefer not having to deal with Mexico's problems but it will take many, many years before that will ever be considered to be a reality. As long as Americans are continuously being harmed by their actions when there is something we can clearly do to prevent this, it is our problem.

reply to post by awake_awoke


Well, we agree then that something CAN be done, and that something SHOULD be done, we just disagree as to what that "something" is.

It's my contention that, should I desire to have a semi-trailer loaded to the gills with military grade M16's and rocket launchers in my back yard (note to ATF - that isn't the case, don't waste taxpayer money hunting for it), it would have NO bearing, whatsoever, on the Drug Cartels, or their depradations in Phoenix. Not even if I got a new semi-trailer load every day. No impact at all.

Securing the border, and execution of cartel kidnappers, whether they commit their crimes with guns or sharp rocks, would be far more likely to impact their business arrangements, particularly as regards the residents of Phoenix.

Bottom line for me: regulation of US citizen firearms= small to no impact on Mexican drug cartels. Prosecution, enforcement, and execution of cartel members committing crimes (regardless of the tools used)= somewhat enhanced effect on drug cartels, enhanced-enhanced (at least 2X) effect on drug cartel members.

nenothtu out

Sorry, I don't get the whole idea of some fantasy drug war causing Mexicans / US border violence. Are the Mexican drug peddlers mad then US isn't proving then with product? :-> Or the Mexican producers are mad the US government isn't paying as much for their product? :-> or what the heck? What is the lame border conflict rational? I had a chance to watch cable TV cause I was traveling around this weekend and all I learned about on Fox was some kid was murdered somewhere and her mother is getting a lot of quality free press, some lady is making money off of getting pregnant, some corporate sacrifice is out there to make people believe in US "Justice" and one other very important bit of vital news that I can't remember at the moment. ;-> Needless to say, all of this must involve guns somehow? Oh, by the way, where does the Federal Government thinks it's going to get the authority to do anything? -- Oh guess what? In the constitution the feds have some authority related to war, security and foreign trade. So guess how they make themselves seem important and authoritative? By using the only areas of limited authority that they do have. But that authority should primarily be advisory. In fact, the FBI should be an advisory service to the states with no rights to arrest living humans in their state of residence.

I believe TPTB have a very definate reason for disarming the US citizen at this time.

They have another... We have illegals in every nook and cranny of the country... What if the majority of them aren't illegals, but actual military? or forces bought by the drug cartels... With the blessing of both govts to start attacking....

Yeah, sure, tourists go to mexico with thousdans fo guns to seel to the mexicans sure!!!! Sure, mexicans sneak over the boarder and break into homes only to steal our guns
Talk about the dumbest idiocracy imaginable! so, taking away our guns, also stops the CIA and government form giving guns to whatever coutnry thier in, and in turn, the people tthey jsut trained, sell those guns to other countrys? or even they just give em the guns!!!
Once againk, its all our fault, according too the liars in congress.