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The "pre-tribulation" rapture is a one way ticket to hell

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posted on May, 12 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 


He's already here, he's just not in power yet. He's been on TV. I think it might be soon he will come on TV like June soon. Next month or July.

share-international.org...

This sucks.

EDIT: What I meant was that he has been interviewed not declared as Maitreya. I did hear a story of a politician from Britain that actually seemed to care but I don't know. Some white guy, so it might not be him. Then again he can change so maybe.

[edit on 5/12/2009 by watchtheashes]




posted on May, 13 2009 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



Read II Thessalonians 2, and find out WHEN the rapture happens. I Thessalonians describes what happens. II Thessalonians tells us WHEN. Paul specifically addresses the question of when, and he said specifically Jesus is NOT COMING BACK UNTIL THE MAN OF SIN (THE ANTICHRIST) is here and the great falling away, and all that stuff, and that when Jesus comes back it will be to destroy the antichrist. This means Christians are goign to be here as long as the antichrist is here.


In 1 Thessalonians, Paul describes the rapture and the Second Coming. Something that is often overlooked is that in the Greek, when he starts to talk about the second coming, he uses a little preposition, eis, I think that's what it is. Regardless, the preposition that he uses means "after this", meaning, after the Rapture, the Second Coming would occur. They are two distinct events. The Post Tribulation rapture theory makes no sense because it has to be bent around for it to work because, who would populate the millenial kingdom? The Bible simply doesn't teach that the church will be here as long as the Antichrist is. We may be here long enough to know who he will be, but we're not going to be here for the Tribulation. This is seens in plenty of places, like Revelation 3-4 among others. Do you not think that the great falling away is already happening? Look at the state that Christianity is in--many denominations are on the verge of eccumenicalism, if not already in it. Many Christians are just Christian in name only--they don't care about Christ it's "just the thing to do".


The church is the bride. All of us. Jesus is betrothed to all of us, not just one person.

Yes, that's true, but in the parable, the bridegroom wasn't bethrothed to all 10 of the virgins. They were the bridesmaids.


And then people ignore all that and go invent pipe dreams out of obscure verses.

John 10.27-29 isn't obscure man! It's simply put that we can't lose our salvation. Also, pretribulationalists don't believe that because of eternal security that people will be raptured but rather their faith in Christ.

I think that you'd do yourself a favor if you studied the Jewish Wedding celebration along side end times stuff. Since Jesus likened end times events to the wedding feast, it will make a lot more sense.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by octotom
"after this", meaning, after the Rapture, the Second Coming would occur. They are two distinct events.


Yeah, two events, but only seconds apart, minutes, possibly even an hour to get all the dead resurrected and all the living transformed. Not seven years.



Originally posted by octotom

The Post Tribulation rapture theory makes no sense because it has to be bent around for it to work because, who would populate the millenial kingdom?


All the people resurrected, plus those who are alive when Jesus comes, as Scripture says. There may be others who will go in as mortals also, maybe children who died before they were old enough to know what's what. Do you not expect to live in the Millenium with Jesus? You expect to be shut out?


Originally posted by octotom
The Bible simply doesn't teach that the church will be here as long as the Antichrist is.


Read II Thes. 2. If that's not what it's saying, I'll eat my sneakers. It also says the LAST TRUMP, not some secret rapture 7 years before the actual Second Coming. This is a heresy, and none of the early church believed this, is not taught in the Bible, and is a heresy invented by Jesuits and promoted by Zionists by their agent Scofield and the Oxford Press.



Originally posted by octotom

in the parable, the bridegroom wasn't bethrothed to all 10 of the virgins. They were the bridesmaids.


If they were bridesmaids, what difference did it make if they were virgins or if their lamps were full? They went in with the bridegroom and were waiting for the bridegroom, not the bride.



Originally posted by octotom
we can't lose our salvation.


Tell that to Judas, Saul, Solomon, Hymaeneus and Alexander, the foolish widows, the lazy servant and the backslidden servant, among others.


Originally posted by octotom

I think that you'd do yourself a favor if you studied the Jewish Wedding celebration along side end times stuff. Since Jesus likened end times events to the wedding feast, it will make a lot more sense.


I'll stick with the Bible. Jesus went to a lot of trouble to try to warn us and teach us, and I don't need to study Jewish wedding feasts. The Jews don't even believe in Jesus, they hate him, and you want me to study their wedding feast to figure out what the Bible says?



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



Tell that to Judas, Saul, Solomon, Hymaeneus and Alexander, the foolish widows, the lazy servant and the backslidden servant, among others.

Judas may not have been saved to start with. The same is the case for all the others that you gave except Saul and Solomon. No where in Scripture does it say that they lost their salvation. They did lose their fellowship with the Holy Spirit, but not their salvation.

Interestingly, when David commited adultry and murder, it's never said that he lost his salvation. We can deduce this because the Bible says that once David recevied God's anointing, it never left him all the days of his life.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



I'll stick with the Bible. Jesus went to a lot of trouble to try to warn us and teach us, and I don't need to study Jewish wedding feasts. The Jews don't even believe in Jesus, they hate him, and you want me to study their wedding feast to figure out what the Bible says?


You do realize that you don't have to go outside the Bible to study the wedding feast, right? Look at Song of Solomon.

Yes, the Jews hated Jesus but that didn't stop God from using the feasts in Leviticus to foretell what Christ would do did it?



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



This is a heresy, and none of the early church believed this, is not taught in the Bible, and is a heresy invented by Jesuits and promoted by Zionists by their agent Scofield and the Oxford Press.

There is a post earlier in this thread that refutes that the early church didn't believe in a pretribulation rapture.

Also, your answer for who populates that millenial kingdom doesn't work because Revelation and several of the prophets says that those who live through the Tribulation populate the millenial kingdom as well--unless God leaves some of them behind. Also, no matter what one's view of the timing of the rapture is, dead people will rise. That means that the rapture is part of the first resurrection. When we're resurrected, we receive glorified bodies. So, even if the Old Testament saints are the ones that populate the millenial kingdom, it would be impossible for them to procreate, which Isaiah says happens, because in the glorified body, people can't reproduce because we're like angels.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by octotom

Judas may not have been saved to start with. The same is the case for all the others that you gave except Saul and Solomon. No where in Scripture does it say that they lost their salvation. They did lose their fellowship with the Holy Spirit, but not their salvation.

Interestingly, when David commited adultry and murder, it's never said that he lost his salvation. We can deduce this because the Bible says that once David recevied God's anointing, it never left him all the days of his life.


You teach antinomianism, about the worst heresy there is. The Bible doesn't say David never lost God's annointing. To the contrary, God was disgusted and saddened by David's behavior, and sent a prophet to him, by which he was condemned by his own words. David's psalms tell that he was dry, that God didn't hear him, that he was cut off from God.

Solomon died in direct rebellion to God, shaking his fist at God for taking away his kingdom, determined to wage war against the man God had chosen in his stead. Solomon also sacrificed his own children to Molech. David committed murder and adultery, and had he died before repenting he would have died in his sins as the Bible says. Solomon did die in his sins. Judas was chosen by Jesus to be his disciple, raised the dead, healed the sick, along with the other disciples. Peter also denied the Lord, as Jesus said whoever denies him, that he will also deny that person before the Father. But Peter repented, David repented. The Bible says Do not be deceived. You are so busy studying Jewish weddings and finding alternate meanings for the plain words of scripture that you are creating your own religion, not Christianity, for sure, but a filthy dream as the Bible says, living for the moment to be "happy" and not submitting to the truth or what is real.

You cannot call yourself a Christian and live and die in your sins.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by octotom

Also, your answer for who populates that millenial kingdom doesn't work because Revelation and several of the prophets says that those who live through the Tribulation populate the millenial kingdom as well--unless God leaves some of them behind. Also, no matter what one's view of the timing of the rapture is, dead people will rise. That means that the rapture is part of the first resurrection. When we're resurrected, we receive glorified bodies. So, even if the Old Testament saints are the ones that populate the millenial kingdom, it would be impossible for them to procreate, which Isaiah says happens, because in the glorified body, people can't reproduce because we're like angels.


Whether we have children or not in the Millenium is irrelevant to the timing of the rapture or the first resurrection.

There are only two resurrections. The first is when Jesus comes back, and the second is at the end of the Millenium. The Second resurrection is for the people who die in their sins and is part of the Second Death. The first resurrection is a blessing, the second resurrection is a horror.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 04:13 PM
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Basically, we're nigh all gonna be roasty-toasty.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 

Pre-trib Pre-Wrath is completely scriptural You should probably study the scriptures a little more



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 10:39 PM
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The Beast is given power to kill those who belong to Christ:

Rev 13:7 : 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So we are still here.

The whole point while we are alive on this earth is to choose the material world or a spiritual world with God. This world today is so materialistic, that we that are here during this time will have suffer though this time to try us to see if we are worthy of the kingdom. Death is a way out of not being here for the time of tribulation. Most today fear death so much, but those that know the spirit do not fear it because this is temporary.

Read this: ISAIAH 57: 1

" The righteous perisheth , and no man lay it to heart and merciful men are taken away , none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

2- " He shall enter into peace : they shall rest in thier beds , each one walking in his own uprightness.

Now why would it mention that no one takes it to heart. Someone is dying.
I think this refers to the above verse that gives the Beast the power to overcome the saints. People at this time will think that those of us hunted by the beast are the bad ones, as they have fallen for the lie. They really think they are good and we are bad.

So we are being told, that take heart, when you see this because those that die are not going to be subject to Gods wrath. This is my interpritation that keeps coming to me in meditation with God in this subject. I have opened my bible so many times and random and open to this page after meditating on it.

I know many believe different things. As long as you are not of the flesh but of the spirit you are ok. You can pray in the spirit and will find your answers when you ask and not just go on what you think.

In the end the "ELECT" will be deceived. If you recognize the spirit of Christ , you will not be deceived. If a false spirit comes to take you away, those who are Christs will know it is not him. Those who do not will be deceived. I pray in meditation to feel and know the spirit of Christ. I keep my spirit open to him all the day long and in everything that I do. I try to separate myself from things of the flesh. I found as I have done this on a daily basis, I have become not afraid of death, and I was a person that that was all I thought about at one time I was so afraid of it. I know I am spirit. His spirit in me lets me know when something is false or not rite. I do a lot of reading, and trying
and it is what directs me .

I am glad that people are searching for the truth. There are many that do not care. Seek and you find. Make it your PRIORITY in all your thoughts to seek and you find.

We are in for a ride, and you know what, I just want to put it to the evil in this earth. When I die, it is more that will be stacked against them that cause the evil.

Matthew 10:28 : And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

I will close with that. Stop fearing the beast. Just make sure you are rite in your own spirit with God.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 12:15 AM
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My thoughts on the subject:

I believe that there is no pre-trib rapture.

Evidence #1: Hebrews in Egypt -

They were not taken away during the plagues. They endured them and were given God's protection

Evidence #2: Noah -

He was not taken away, but was given divine guidance and protection. He still had to endure a great calamity.



A great site to check out

www.thiefinthenight.org



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:34 AM
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Originally posted by amatrine
The Beast is given power to kill those who belong to Christ:

Rev 13:7 : 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So we are still here.



Exactly right. And there's the part about all the millions of souls under the altar calling on God to avenge them, and God telling them to wait a little longer until the rest of the saints were slain.

There will be Christians who survive the Tribulation and will be translated without dieing. These will be people of great faith who completely throw themselves on God in total surrender and serve Him in courage. We're told to pray that we are found worthy.

The pretrib rapture theory is invented out of a few words, like John being told in his vision to "come up hither," and such. Nothing like building a complete religion on a few obscure words.

When all the stuff starts happening, the fake alien invasion, the magick of the antichrist, these will fall for it like a ton of bricks because they are already willingly deceived in contradiction to the plain words of scripture.

Hal Lindsey and Scofield are/were both scoundrels, liars, thieves and fakers, who would do anything for a buck. Anybody who ever studied the life of Scofield would never want his words printed in their Bibles next to God's.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 


Wonderful website ! Thanks for posting it.

Ama



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:56 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



I hear you. I stopped watching the tv preachers years ago.

I also stopped going to church because no one I have found that preaches the truth. It makes it hard because you want to discuss things to prepare for what is coming , but most people do not even think they will be here.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:05 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 


"And there's the part about all the millions of souls under the altar calling on God to avenge them,"

So, what about forgiveness isnt that a very important part of christianity, the other cheek ? The bible is full of contradictions, ive read it twice, including the old testament and it makes absolutelty no sense to a normal intelligent person today. Add all the interpretations and translations and you get something very strange indeed, a tool for the human mind designed over several millenia.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:06 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



Whether we have children or not in the Millenium is irrelevant to the timing of the rapture or the first resurrection.

Yes, it is important. If the rapture happens "seconds" before Christ returning, there would be no people left to populate the millenial kingdom as Isaiah said would be the case.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



The pretrib rapture theory is invented out of a few words, like John being told in his vision to "come up hither," and such.

That's not true. I think that all your doing is repeating things that you've learned without ever actually studying the pre-trib rapture theory.

The pretrib rapture theory is based off of 1 Thessalonians 4.13-17. In those verses, it is evident that Paul was expecting the rapture to happen in his lifetime. When he gave the Thessalonians these words, he mentioned nothing about the Tribulation and people going through it. If Christians had to go through the Tribulation, it was a major blunder by Paul by not telling them that they're going to have to see the Abomination and the rest of the Tribulation events. Also, Paul said to comfort one another with the notion of the rapture. The rapture happening at the end of the Tribulation isn't much comfort to people who were already grieving.

Any rapture but a pretrib takes away a doctrine that is taught throughout the New Testament. That doctrine being the doctrine of Christ's imminent return. If the rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation, then for the Christian, Christ's return isn't imminent because we'd know exactly when he's going to come back based on the events that are going on around us.

Second Thessalonians also makes it clear that the Antichrist would appear once the restrainer is removed. It only makes sense that this restrainer is the Holy Spirit, which dwells the Church. Then we see in Revelation that the Antichrist appears in the Tribulation. Logically then, the rapture would have to occur before the Tribulation in order for the Antichrist to appear.

Then, in Revelation, before the Tribulation starts, we see that there are people in heaven that are casting crowns before Christ. In Scripture, only Christians get crowns. So, the 24 elders must be a symbol for the church. Then in Revelation, there is no mention of the bride of Christ from chapter 5 of Revelation until after the Tribulation is over. Pretty strange if the church goes through it all--and then it's even stranger that Revelation doesn't mention that immediate removal of millions of people from the Earth as Christ comes back to Earth.

In short, unlike you've stated, the pretribulational rapture theory isn't based on "a few obscure words". Even if it was, every word in Scripture is important and is useful for teaching.

Simply because someone believes in a pretrib rapture doesn't make them an unbeliever either. What makes someone a Christian is whether or not they've accepted Christ. That's it. As my Theology teacher in college used to say, "Thank goodness that we don't have to be theologians to get to heaven."



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:23 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 


There was someone who was raptured away before the flood happened--Enoch. If you do the math, he probably would've lived until the time the flood occured. This could very well be a picture of the church.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by Salt of the Earth
 



The Bible doesn't say David never lost God's annointing.

Oh it most certainly does. 1 Samuel 16.13 says:


...And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward.

This occured before he commited adultery and murder. The Scripture never says that it left him.


To the contrary, God was disgusted and saddened by David's behavior, and sent a prophet to him, by which he was condemned by his own words. David's psalms tell that he was dry, that God didn't hear him, that he was cut off from God.

Yes, God was digusted with David's sin--much like he is with ours. But that doesn't mean that salvation was lost. Being dry doesn't mean that salvation is lost either. We all go through dry spells as we live the Christian life. They're caused by sin. But, if we die in one of these dry spells, we'll still go to heaven, if we're truly saved, because, as the Apostle Paul put it, we're sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. If we can lose our salvation, God doesn't keep this promise.


ou are so busy studying Jewish weddings

Do you not think that if something is mentioned in the Bible, it's important to study the background? What a foolish way to study the Scripture.


finding alternate meanings for the plain words of scripture

Am I? You're just saying that I'm "making things up" because you don't agree with me. What an easy cop out. Just like saying I'm spewing heresy because you don't agree with a position.


that you are creating your own religion, not Christianity, for sure, but a filthy dream as the Bible says, living for the moment to be "happy" and not submitting to the truth or what is real.

I'm not making things up to be happy in the moment. I take the Scripture very seriously. When I study it, I study it with the intent to glean what God says--not man.

I think that you need to take a step back and rethink your method of discussing things, such as this. Calling a fellow Christian a heretic and acting in a very hateful and poisionous way is exactly the reason why people don't listen to Christians when we go to spread the Gospel--which is the only important thing. We should rejoice in the common salvation that we share. God's not going to judge us based on our frivolous secondary believes, but the primary one--Jesus Christ and what we did with him.




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