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The "pre-tribulation" rapture is a one way ticket to hell

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posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by heliosprime
They ignore Jesus actual teachings and his example. So many pray to false gods, worship idols, ignore the commandments, ignore the true holydays. And these are just those who call themselves christian.


I am curious....you say people ignore the "actual" teachings of Jesus? Then you quote the book of Matt. from the Bible. Didn't Paul write the book of Matt.?

Most of the "actual teachings" of Jesus were never included in the "modern" Bible.

You also comment on the "True" holy days. Please tell me what the "True" days you refer to are, considering that the holy days celebrated by Christians, are actually based on the Pagen Wheel.

BTW, those of the old religion do not worship idols, but they do see how everything is connected spiritually...and many keep the "commandments" naturally, without need of constant reminding like many Christians.

I hope you will indulge me with answers to my questions...as for tribulation, hell, etc...I respect your decision to believe in it...but do not agree.


~Holly




posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 01:10 PM
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I think the OP missunderstood his scriptures he quoted.

Okay you say that the people who are taken are taken straight to hell. The people who stay are the Christians who have accepted Jesus in his heart and they are the ones going to heaven.

Why would they be left behind to suffer the seals being opened, the bowls being poured and the trumpets being blown?



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Safandjaro
When burned in the fires of hell my consiouness would seize to exist and with that the complete reality of the universe, God, present and past.
"But I would still exist" you probalbly say, but since I cannot observe that anymore, I cannot comfirm that.


Hell wasn't even made up until the dark ages. Hell is from the same word as Cell literally.

You are exactly right. Truth is what is known, not unknown....what is unknown can not be termed, because it is UNKNOWN.

Good Job



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Hell wasn't even made up until the dark ages. Hell is from the same word as Cell literally.

You are exactly right. Truth is what is known, not unknown....what is unknown can not be termed, because it is UNKNOWN.

Good Job


The word hell may have come from the darkages, but the concept of what we know as hell is ancient.

Hell:

O.E. hel, helle "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from P.Gmc. *khaljo (cf. O.Fris. helle, O.N. hel, Ger. Hölle, Goth. halja "hell") "the underworld," lit. "concealed place," from PIE *kel- "to cover, conceal, save" (see cell). The Eng. word may be in part from O.N. Hel (from P.Gmc. *khalija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology Loki's daughter, who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"), a death aspect of the three-fold goddess. Transfer of a pagan concept and word to a Christian idiom, used in the K.J.V. for O.T. Heb. Sheol, N.T. Gk. Hades, Gehenna.
Source



Old Testament usage:

Sheol - Strongs number 07585 – underworld, world of the dead, grave, pit, hell
Used 65 times


New Testament usage:

Gehenna - Strongs number 1067 – the place where trash and filth were burned.
Used 23 times

Hades - Strongs number 86 – realm of the dead
Used 11 times

Lake of Fire used 4 times.



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by heliosprime
 


The problem with all this is that the Bible is completely open for interpretation, many of the prophecies are vague, where some see one meaning, others see an entirely different meaning.

My issue with the whole end times business is the fact that a supposedly loving God is essentially going to allow the majority of mankind to be slaughtered mercilessly via plague, war, famine, death, etc. Doesn't it seem easier for an ALL-POWERFUL God to swoop down and save EVERYONE, or is He incapable of saving everyone, in which case he is NOT all-powerful.

None of it makes sense and all if it is open to personal interpretation, though I certainly agree there is no real Biblical basis for a pre-tribulation rapture... Doesn't really matter though, most human beings will die in horrific agony (and, if the Bible were true, burn for eternity in a lake of torrential flame), but most Christians are just fine and dandy with that, and apparently God is too.

Yes despite the fact GOD IS LOVE he will still allow the horrors of Revelation to happen and sentence billions to Hell, it all makes so much sense



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by heliosprime
 


The problem with all this is that the Bible is completely open for interpretation, many of the prophecies are vague, where some see one meaning, others see an entirely different meaning.

My issue with the whole end times business is the fact that a supposedly loving God is essentially going to allow the majority of mankind to be slaughtered mercilessly via plague, war, famine, death, etc. Doesn't it seem easier for an ALL-POWERFUL God to swoop down and save EVERYONE, or is He incapable of saving everyone, in which case he is NOT all-powerful.

None of it makes sense and all if it is open to personal interpretation, though I certainly agree there is no real Biblical basis for a pre-tribulation rapture... Doesn't really matter though, most human beings will die in horrific agony (and, if the Bible were true, burn for eternity in a lake of torrential flame), but most Christians are just fine and dandy with that, and apparently God is too.

Yes despite the fact GOD IS LOVE he will still allow the horrors of Revelation to happen and sentence billions to Hell, it all makes so much sense


God is Love. He is also JUST.

We have just so many years on this planet and then we die. How we spend those years justify if we go to heaven or not.

In those years we are accountable for our actions. We are all born in sin. If we do not repent our sins and acknowledge that Jesus died for our sins and worship God, then yes we go to hell.

Unrepented people cannot stand the presence of God and as our soul is eternal Hell is the only place for them to go. Why should the unrepented sinner get to spend eternity in a perfect utopia?

The tribulation and judgements that follow are designed to show that there is a real God. It is up to us to go to Him, if we choose not to, then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

I see it like this.

Why risk burning in a lake of fire for ever just so you can live your life as if you will not be accountable for your actions?

That is a major gamble that I am not willing to take. Are you?



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by jd140
 


Can you name a sin great enough to warrant ETERNAL punishment. I cannot, for the life of me, think of a crime terrible enough to deserve eternal fiery damnation as it is spoken of in the Bible. Even Hitler, often thought of as the worst person in history, doesn't deserve ETERNAL punishment, perhaps a lifetime of punishment for each life his followers took, but there is nothing JUST whatsoever about any of the punishments spoken of in the Bible...

Revelation also deals with the deaths of billions of human beings who are otherwise innocent normal people, and their deaths are often brought on by horrific plague, famine and war. These painful horrifying deaths likely followed by infinite eternal Hell cannot be the "justice" of a God who IS LOVE. So lot's of good people will be subjected to this horrific eternal punishment just because they believed differently, or questioned what they were told in Sunday School...

Sorry, it makes not one lick of sense...



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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I am confident that I can demonstrate the the pre trib rapture is the correct Biblical view. I don't think its necessary as there is a deeper issue here because this thread is directed at believers.

Are you even a Christian heliosprime, I honestly can not tell according to the qualifications Jesus gave...


By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:35


You are doing this out the great "love" overflowing from your heart - right?


originally posted by heliosprime
The "pre-tribulation" rapture is a one way ticket to hell


First, obviously you do not believe in the "pre-tribulation" rapture, I wonder how it could be a ticket to anywhere at all?

I suppose you must have meant to say that belief in the "pre-tribulation" rapture is a one way ticket to hell? How about teaching it?

I suppose you will also tell Pastor John MacArthur that he is going to hell?


Pastor Chuck Smith is toast?


The timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue. It has nothing to do with issues such as belief i.e. 1 Cor. 15:3-4, confessing you are a sinner and the Lordship of Christ. However what very surely points to a questionable salvation position is an abundance of spiritual pride.


But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

James 4:6


I think you should be ashamed of yourself. Something to consider, Jesus most harsh words were not to whores and thieves but to prideful religious people.



Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Mat 23:23



posted on Mar, 13 2009 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


Spending your whole life denying true love and grace could warrant it, especially if you were told how and why everything was going to go down. God has eternal patience but he also has a plan. We're pretty plainly told what the plan is, it's up to us to chose our path and in the end we will reap what we sow. Just saying, it's not that hard to understand that I was given a mortal body and a life long test to see whether I spend my time doing evil or good. In the end if I chose denial and to do whatever I wanted then evil is as evil does and you go to an evil place. It only seems harsh though, he's actually given you an entire life to make the choice yourself.


[edit on 13-3-2009 by Boogley]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 07:26 AM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


It is not up to me to provide judgment to anyone, but to the father alone.

There is one God
His son is Jesus
There is a Holy Spirit
Do the commandements and keep the sabbath day
Celebrate the annual sabbaths of the actual holydays
(Passover, Feast of Unleven Bread, Day of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atoenment, Feast of Tabernacles, Last Great Day)

When you sin against Gods commandments ask forgiveness, confess your sin to show God you understand HIS will.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by Holly N.R.A.



I am curious....you say people ignore the "actual" teachings of Jesus? Then you quote the book of Matt. from the Bible. Didn't Paul write the book of Matt.?


err no, that would be Matthew that wrote Matthew


Most of the "actual teachings" of Jesus were never included in the "modern" Bible.


Jesus teaching are there, but have been corrupted by many "so called" churches. He DID his fathers will, kept the commandments, sabbath, and annual holydays.


You also comment on the "True" holy days. Please tell me what the "True" days you refer to are, considering that the holy days celebrated by Christians, are actually based on the Pagen Wheel.


You are correct easter, christmas, etc are pagan based. see my repy to bigwhammy for a list of the true holydays


BTW, those of the old religion do not worship idols, but they do see how everything is connected spiritually...and many keep the "commandments" naturally, without need of constant reminding like many Christians.


Again, any image (mary, saints, etc) is a false image, Sunday is not the Sabbath



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 07:51 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 

Because of God's nature revealed in the Bible we learn that if we have any sin, whether you think it's big or small, that sin warrants being separated from God. Sin is sin, while society places different value on that sin, ie stealing a jelly bean from a grocery store obviously doesn't look as bad as murdering someone, it's still sin. Because God is perfect and righteous he cannot accept us in our fallen state, that's why he sent Jesus Christ his son to die on the cross to shed his own blood to cover our sins. Jesus died to pay for your sins, no matter how big or small you think they are, they have to be paid for. It's up to you if you want to accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, so that you could confess your sin or fallen state ( or however you want to express it ) to God and ask for forgiveness. That is the only way that God can redeem people. God is not going to force himself on you, it's a choice that he will allow you to make. If you chose to not believe him or to go your own way, that's the only thing that would separate you from God FOREVER, and when you're separated from God the only place your eternal soul can go is to hell. Hell is where God is not, that's why it's the most horrible, awful place in existence. So, again, it's absolutely your choice and your choice alone whether you want to accept the gift of salvation. It's simple, you just accept that Jesus died for your sins, confess, and acknowledge God as your savior. If you truly mean it there are ways to follow up on those prayers to help you with the new direction that you're going. It's not that God is unable, it's that he's a gentleman and will allow you to decide, he gave us free choice and you get to use it. If you use it to separate yourself from God, that's the only time that you would go to hell, and that is completely your decision, not God's. If God took away our free will he would make sure EVERYBODY was saved, that's his true desire, but he gave us free will and he will let us exercise it.


[edit on 14-3-2009 by Eisley]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.
There is no 'get out of suffering free' card.
That notion is completely unscriptural.
The rapture cult was started by Nelson Darby in the 1800s.
He was a failed Anglican Priest when he started the cult.

'He who endures until the end is saved.'



So if this is really a cult, why do so many people believe it will happen? I myself at one point believed as well, but came to my own conclusion, I had read somewhere that the people who follow Jesus are the ones who will suffer the most. I then concluded that maybe there is no rapture, if there is no rapture then i believe many will be deceived, which is actually written in Revelations. Why did he start this cult? I believe he wanted people to follow Christianity so bad, that he took some parts if the bible out of context and said this is what that means. Plus, I feel many people are so weak minded, that they have to look forward to something else, hince God.

No I don't think there will be a rapture, I think many people will be disappointed, and lose their faith in God, if there really is a God. That's a whole other discussion. My 2 cents.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:27 AM
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if there is a god? What if there is a tribulation? What if there is a hell and you don't believe? Is it worth it?

What if there is no God?What if you don't believe? What if this is all there is? Is it worth it?

What if there is a God? What if you believe? What if there is a hell and you believe? Is it worth it?

God loved even the angels who of some rebelled. He is did not take pity on them when they asked Enoch for assistance for grace from God. God said no, even to angels. Who are we to say no to God, who created the universe and everything. Ask your self what have you created lately or how did the heavens form? Are we not at our most basic level a created being? If so.......then we owe the creator our love, honor and gratitude. He loves us.......he doesn't love sin. The angels, beings more advanced than us......he will punish. He offers us a ticket of forgiveness because we are created and he wants us to love him. He loved us first.....remember the story of the garden. He walked with us until we were decieved by the wicked one. He realizes we are weak, he sent Jesus to demonstrate that even though weak God sends us a redeemer. Jesus never said worship "him", even though he is a part of the trinity. He said love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Very simple, and he then paid the price God required......blood sacrifice. Even the jews said, "let his blood be on us and our children" not knowing they were covering themselves for grace! What an awesome plan. Jesus was a human who was superhuman. He submitted himself to humility and for that he will be our example of how to live. god destroyed Noahs time because of genetic impurity and we are messing with that again. We are created beings in the state we are now....physical bodies with a soul. think of the soul......and the ramifications.....jesus lived a pure life.....he wants you to do the same. Jesus said be afraid of what can happen to the soul, not what can happen to the body..........
May God Bless the readers and open hearts to the sacrifice of Jesus. He first loved us......is it so hard to not see that he has provided a way back to the father....? Rapture, smapture.........Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. That about covers it. Look back at Enoch and Abraham........faith obedience and love for God. really simple. Love endures all things......there must be something to that for God to have said it. think on that and you may go crazy.........Love God. Period.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by speaknoevil07
 


No offense, but I hate to see someone with an open heart and mind having their 'Cup' so overfilled with 99.99% BS.

Got a bible? cover it with swill, and feed it to the pigs: they love it. Trash.

You're spewing fairy-tale nonsense all over the place, swallowed hook-line-&-sinker. Need some light?

OAHSPE is the origin of christianty in truth, the never-revealed truth, behind the scenes, that has been conveniently put away from the knowledge of men. More money that way, and absolute control over the susperstitious minds of mankind. Get ready for it! Thrill-a-minute Truth brought to you by the Algonquin.
The True Origins of the christain faith, proving that jesu is not 'God.'
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The trib and such is pure crap, beyond the fact that a new Containment Field is indeed prepared. Ok, a fetus in it's mother's womb: child humanity in it's Earth Mother's Womb: Earth is a womb: sealed with an environment for nourishment.

Space probes? Earth thoughts cross the Galaxies, so spare me if you cannot conceive. Blind belief is ignnorance, and will be punished by Cosmic Law. Self-Aware Effort, unflinching unbending Intent to Know and to Become.

Think here a bit: xtians want savlation (haha), so rather then learn to become One with the All and discover how to connect Directly, they Open their Wallet, and hand the Pastor $20 cash, buying a stairway to heaven. They actually do this! And believe it get's them a seat for the Greatest Show in the Universe. Good gravy, use that soppy noodle called a mind (Soul-Spirit), and put the things of ignorance and superstition and blind belief away: read Bringthelight's post (pg. 1).

Each to their own, one the dark, another the light. The masses will perish of ignorance: indeed, it is their ignorance that brings the destruction via unconscious creation.

Empty your Cup.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by SS,Naga]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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It's all pretty confusing, What exactly is the absolute minimum you can do and still be saved? Even if people go to church and say they believe in Christ they still commit sins, do you have to re-repent every time you sin again? (lie, gossip, impure thoughts, and the like.) Or is saying you believe in Christ and doing the best you can going to be enough. I know people who say their Christians but they still have a sinful nature, albeit a lesser one.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by jd140
 


Can you name a sin great enough to warrant ETERNAL punishment. I cannot, for the life of me, think of a crime terrible enough to deserve eternal fiery damnation as it is spoken of in the Bible. Even Hitler, often thought of as the worst person in history, doesn't deserve ETERNAL punishment, perhaps a lifetime of punishment for each life his followers took, but there is nothing JUST whatsoever about any of the punishments spoken of in the Bible...

Revelation also deals with the deaths of billions of human beings who are otherwise innocent normal people, and their deaths are often brought on by horrific plague, famine and war. These painful horrifying deaths likely followed by infinite eternal Hell cannot be the "justice" of a God who IS LOVE. So lot's of good people will be subjected to this horrific eternal punishment just because they believed differently, or questioned what they were told in Sunday School...

Sorry, it makes not one lick of sense...


The only sin that I can think of that is a one way, no second chance sin is suicide.

The rest are repentable if you are sincere about it.

These plauges are prophesised in the bible. So is the rapture. If tomorrow millions of people up and disappear that should give you a clue that there is a God and that you should repent.

Each Judgement is designed to prove again and again that there is a God. If I remember right there are 7 seals, 7 bowls and 7 trumpets. Counting the rapture, that is 22 signs from God himself that the unrepented should reconsider.

You also have to remember that in this time there is the Anti Christ and a major majority will worship him as GOD. It isn't as if they do not believe in God, it is that they are worshipping a false god. Everyone will get chance after chance until they take is mark. When that happens then the plagues will only affect them. You take the mark, then it is all over.


You keep saying God is Love. Like I stated in my last post.

God is Love and JUST.

He has given us the foundation to know the truth. He also has given us the free will to accept it.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by korath
It's all pretty confusing, What exactly is the absolute minimum you can do and still be saved? Even if people go to church and say they believe in Christ they still commit sins, do you have to re-repent every time you sin again? (lie, gossip, impure thoughts, and the like.) Or is saying you believe in Christ and doing the best you can going to be enough. I know people who say their Christians but they still have a sinful nature, albeit a lesser one.


This should help answer your question, troubling as it may be, "do the minimum"?

Matt 7:21-23


21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The point here is that many who think they are christian ignore what Jesus actually taught....to do his fathers will........many worship falsely, on false days, ignore the holydays, or just go through the motions.....

Perhaps a better question should be "Can I do enough"? Jesus does forgive sins of those who are actually trying to defeat sin, doing thier actual best each day, but falling short (as all will do). But one must DO Gods commandments, DO his will..........



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by mysticalzoe



No I don't think there will be a rapture, I think many people will be disappointed, and lose their faith in God, if there really is a God. That's a whole other discussion. My 2 cents.


Matt 24:21-22


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Don't read over verse 22 when it says "22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

"but for the elects sake" means his select people are alive and in the tribulation, and to save them he returns to stop the world from complete destruction......."no flesh saved".....





[edit on 14-3-2009 by heliosprime]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by speaknoevil07
 


No offense, but I hate to see someone with an open heart and mind having their 'Cup' so overfilled with 99.99% BS.

Got a bible? cover it with swill, and feed it to the pigs: they love it. Trash.


[edit on 14-3-2009 by SS,Naga]


Matt 24:37-39


37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


So go have a party and believe not.......join those who "swam with the fishes" as the "mob" would say, in the lake of fire.......it is your choice..........



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