"Zionist Conspiracy Theory" = Black Propaganda

Wow.

I don't know if it's the freedom of the Internet...being able to spout anything without it reflecting on your real person....or if the encounters I've had here really reflect these people and their opinions.

Whatever guys.....just make sure you throw some napkins in the bag before you pass them out the drive-up window. 'Kay? 'Cause when ya'll mess up our order, it's annoying.

reply to post by mybigunit

Thanks, if I had read the entire thread, I would've realized what I was dealing with and wouldn't have wasted time on the brainwashed:

Originally posted by MrPenny
I don't think the Talmud has a monopoly on violence, cruelty, misogyny, etc....

Exodus 35:2 Six days work shall be done...

Say no more...

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
You mean like trying to claim that Urban Moving Systems was a legitimate moving company instead of a front for Mossad?

That's false and not supported by my comments in this thread. You really shouldn't tell lies.

You mean like trying to claim that the five members of Mossad

Two of those arrested were suspected of being involved with Israeli intelligence....not all five of them.

You mean like trying to claim that the box cutters and highlighted maps found in their possession were irrelevant

I'm not trying to "claim" they were irrelevant. They are irrelevant.

Your attempts to support your position are dishonest and laughable. There are people reading your scribblings and having a great chuckle.....trust me on that.

What is really dishonorable and laughable is the American Justice System today. To date my freind, what is without a doubt the biggest crime to ever occur on American soil as never been addressed inside of an American Court Room.

I don't honestly know what country you hail from, but the United States of America I was born in, and grew up in, didn't have Walter Cronkide trying the biggest crime in the nation in nothing but a Court of Public Oppinion on press releases written and presented to him by the Justice Department.

Some how, some way, amazingly no one seems to mind that in this vast elaborate conspiracy that cost thousands of Americans their lives, and has led to a pronlonged and protracted war spanning eight years now, even more American lives and trillions of dolalrs has yet to yield one single shred of evidence, suspect or charge?

But you are prepared to dismiss and absolutely exclude suspects based on what NBC, or CBS, or CNN or FOX says?

It's an outrage that no one has even been tried in abstentia. It's the biggest insult to the American people in a long line of government mismanagement that is destorying the very fabric, way of life, and credibility of this nation and all you care is proving who didn't do it?

Mr. Penny no offence but it is blind thinking like yours that has destroyed this nation. Content to tow the official line in all things and parrot them and bellitle others for not doing so with silly dramatics is just sad for someone who beleives in what America is supposed to stand for.

You have no way of not knowing those men apprehended in New Jersey weren't involved with the plot.

It is assumptive foolishness exactly like this that has enabled the United States Government to get away with not having to do, what should have been done years ago.

Someone who beleives in the value of the system of Law now being discarded purely for the sake of international politics and to validate a foolish and costly war, would be outraged justice hadn't been obtained for the thousands of innocent souls who died tragic and in some cases unimaginably tragic that day. Justice in America is 12 Citizens sitting on a panel that the government and defendants alike must present their evidence too.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You have no way of not knowing those men apprehended in New Jersey weren't involved with the plot.

Well, as polite and learned as you are, you can go pound sand.

I have not....anywhere in this thread, stated those people had nothing to do with any plot. The evidence that has been presented in an attempt to show that they may have.....is stupid, vague, and far from conclusive.

What appears to have been overlooked is...the people I've been engaging here, have no way of knowing those men were involved with the plot. Yet, it seems to be completely normal and accepted that they can come to this conclusion and totally dismiss and ignore any other possible idea....just the idea....that there may be some other conclusion. I guarantee you these are the same people who grandly and boldly dismiss the "official word" when it suits their childish fantasies, yet you will see them using the "official word" here as the gospel truth.

BS

I've provided a transcript of the New York Police Commissioner declaring "there were no explosives".....quotes attributed to the media making clear that some of their reporting was erroneous.....made it clear that the comments of the Israelis were not that they "had been sent to New York to document the event"....laid waste to the fabricated, stupid characterization of the van as a "fake moving van".....pointed out that the existence of a box knife in a moving van is, rather than some bizarrely suspicious event, can be considered normal considering the need for movers to cut some frickin' boxes.......

I'm appalled that the people I have encountered here have exhibited the ignorance, lack of reasoning skills, and sheer chutzpah, to not have the maturity to even consider what I've written and instead childishly responded in the manner they have.

And then to have your condescending attitude come in here and lecture me is just about over the top for me. Frankly, I'm not surprised many of you have problems thinking and reasoning about this stuff.....I'm sure it's difficult to get enough oxygen to your brain when your head is stuck where it is.

And it's not "tow" the official line professor....it's "toe".


[edit on 17-3-2009 by MrPenny]

reply to post by MrPenny

And it's not "tow" the official line professor....it's "toe".

My toes aren't getting near that line, but please feel free to keep towing it.

I am sorry you feel so poorly about your conclusion that just because you present it from a source that arrives at an opinion you feel comfortable, that alone doesn't make others feel comfortable with that conclusion.

In regards to how the American Justice System works is what I was talking about in my post.

One of the most important branches of checks and balances in OUR Constitutional system of law has not only been not employed, but it's obvious the U.S. Government has fabricated every reason not to employ it.

Gitmo...The government just knows that no one in the United States wants any of the accused locked up in one of our Super Max Federal Prison Systems because they are oh so dangerous.

Obama...Wants to close Gitmo and send all the people that supposedly were conspirators who weren't operatives on the flights that day and just them back overseas to prisons there?

Meanwhile phony press articles from a press that has been denied any independent access to those they are holding supposedly involved in the plot reports that many of them want to confess now to their crimes.

This thing is so trumped up they can't even put them before a military tribunal let alone a civilian one and your main concern is who might be innocent? As opposed to a transparent Justice System being employed to finally prove who is guilty and who is not guilty?

In America that is not our way. It's never been our way. It should never be our way. I can't believe you would advocate that.

The United States of America is a diversified nation based on Separation of Church and State, no one class should ever be granted exempt from that process.

You might want to ask yourself what might you be missing if you are finding it so hard to get other people to reach your same conclusions.

Then you might want to ask yourself why any one of our individual conclusions should suspend the due process of law and the Courts?

When laws are followed and enforced there is a whole lot less to debate.

Laws aren't being followed. People who live by a rule of law and pay taxes to have that rule of law enforced deserve to have the law enforced and due process carried out.

That's not an opinion based thing that's a matter or Law.

Wow, talk about stubborn! MrPenny should quit before he becomes the laughing stock of ATS. Probably too late.

Try as he might, he STILL can't debunk the original 9/11 news articles.

Why did the Jerusalem Post quote U.S. Army Radio in reporting that authorities stopped a van "packed with explosives" as it approached a ramp to the George Washington Bridge?

Car Bomb Found on George Washington Bridge

American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge connecting New York and New Jersey.

The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge.

Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported.

Why did New Jersey police say they found maps and other evidence that linked the Israelis to 9/11?

Five Men Detained As Suspected Conspirators

By PAULO LIMA
Staff Writer
Bergen County (NJ) Record

About eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan's tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts.

...Sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.

"There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

Why did Israeli National News report that the five Israelis were being held on charges of "plotting to blow up" the George Washington Bridge?

Arutz Sheva News Service IsraelNationalNews.com 10-26-1

Five young Israelis are "on the verge of collapse," according to family members, as their incarceration in New York on charges relating to the Bin Laden attacks continues. They were arrested on Sept. 11, only hours after the World Trade Center attack, on charges of "plotting to blow up" a New York bridge. Katie Shmuel of the Galilee town of Yokne'am, says that her son Yaron is in "a very critical psychological situation," given that they are not allowed to have visitors and the difficult conditions in which they are being held. "The Israeli Consul-General in New York was allowed to visit only after asking several times and receiving a special permit," Katie told Arutz-7's Yosef Zalmanson today. "He was allowed to talk to them only in English, and only from behind a glass partition. The Consul told me that the boys are in a bad state and that they are being held under difficult conditions."

When asked why the five youths, aged 22-26, are being held, Katie replied with despair: "It's ludicrous. They were on the George Washington Bridge at the time of the bombing, and the FBI had warnings of a terrorist plot, of guys in a white van, to blow up the bridge. So when the FBI saw this van, with my son and his four friends - one of them had a large sum of money, there were two razor knives in the van, and one of the boys is named Omer, which the FBI guys thought was Omar - they put one and one together and got three, and immediately arrested them... For the first few days, the boys were held in an FBI dungeon, tied up, with no clothes and no food."

Why, according to ABC News, were the Israelis detained for more than two months -- including being stripped naked, tied up and denied food in solitary confinement -- then given as many as seven polygraph tests before they were quietly released?

Along with the Haaretz news article about employees of Israeli-owned Odigo instant messenger service who received predictions and advance warnings of the 9/11 terrorist attacks on their pagers, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots on this one.

Which is not to say that Mossad acted alone. They had plenty of help from the murderous PNAC neocon traitors in the Bush administration. Mossad didn't order the U.S. military to stand-down, which prevented fighter jets from reaching the hijacked planes. And Mossad didn't send a missile into the Pentagon.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
What is really dishonorable and laughable is the American Justice System today. To date my freind, what is without a doubt the biggest crime to ever occur on American soil as never been addressed inside of an American Court Room.

Well, Bob Dole's former Chief of Staff, who was also Paul Wolfowitz' classmate at the University of Chicago, claimed he had proof of Bush administration complicity, but his lawsuit was dismissed on grounds of "Doctrine of Sovereign Immunity", which is even more laughable:

Stanley Hilton's 9/11 Suit Dismissed, Appeal Pending

SueTheTerrorist.net | January 18 2005

The $7 billion federal class action lawsuit against top Bush Administration officials for, among other things, their roles in engineering and orchestrating the 911 attacks has been dismissed by Judge Illston. Attorney for the plaintiffs, Stanley Hilton is preparing an appeal to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and hopes to reverse the judge's ruling.

Mr. Hilton will be making the fifteen page ruling dismissing the suit available to the public. As soon as SueTheTerrorists.Net webmaster, Abel Ashes (Hull Simmons) receives the document it will be online for all to read and understand the judge's given reasons for dismissing the suit.

Mr. Ashes spoke with Stanley Hilton earlier today and Mr. Hilton informed him that the judge's ruling was based on the "Doctrine of Sovereign Immunity". In other words, the suit was not dismissed because of lack of evidence, but rather because the judge reasoned that U.S. Citizens do not have the right to hold a sitting President accountable for anything, even if the charges include premeditated mass murder and premeditated acts of high treason.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by GoldenFleece]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



Speaking of " Toeing the line " , conforming.

This Orwell quote speaks of that;

" At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is “not done”… Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness. A genuinely unfashionable opinion is almost never given a fair hearing, either in the popular press or in the highbrow periodicals. "


Funny that!

And the court of PUBLIC OPINION tried on TV, was right on the money.

Originally posted by toasted


Speaking of " Toeing the line " , conforming.

This Orwell quote speaks of that;

" At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is “not done”… Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness. A genuinely unfashionable opinion is almost never given a fair hearing, either in the popular press or in the highbrow periodicals. "

Orwell was right. But as he died decades ago we don't know which view he would consider to be prevailing in the case.

A religion can have anywhere from a few hundred to hundreds of millions of followers. Their beliefs, no matter how absurd, become the orthodoxy. Exponents of a radical politics, or accepters of even outrageous lunatic fringe theories, as part of a community sustain a default orthodoxy.

Belief that an alien spaceship crashed in Roswell New Mexico and the US military concealed it is considered a conspiracy theory. For the UFO community it's established unquestioned history.

So in this particular neighbourhood who dares to speak out against the anti-Jewish masking itself as anti-Zionism orthodoxy?


Mike F



[edit on 18-3-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
So in this particular neighbourhood who dares to speak out against the anti-Jewish masking itself as anti-Zionism orthodoxy?

Good point. Following the same concept, who dares speak out against "evidence", circumstances, and conclusions that are weak, unfounded, and unhindered by actual facts?

I can not in my right mind figure out why we would want this lame movement. No laws posted, although if you read what they are about you get some ideas what you do not want to be apart of. Live free. Be your own person, not what they want you to be. Think for yourself, not let others decieve you into a hole you can not climb out of. For what purpose does a sheltered life of this movenment let you be yourself. And that is to control you.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Anyway, thank you for not accusing me of being anti-semitic (I'm not) and acknowledging that these incidents really occurred

The whole point of this thread is to show how there is a difference between genuine conspiracy-theory or even investigating Israeli and Jewish activities vs. being an anti-semite who does nothing other than "investigate" Jews and disseminate false information about them.

There's also a difference between the person who exposes the Mossad for its evil-doings and the person who exposes the Mossad in order to collect material that will confirm his belief in "the inherent evil of the parasite Jew".

The discernment need not be blurred.

Labeling every critic of Israel an anti-semite is just as crazy as labeling every successful banker "an evil jew".

[edit on 18-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by mmiichael

So in this particular neighbourhood who dares to speak out against the anti-Jewish masking itself as anti-Zionism orthodoxy?

Yes, in this particular venue, speaking out against some conspiracy-theories = "going against the grain".

An interesting reverse of situation.

[edit on 18-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by toasted
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Speaking of " Toeing the line " , conforming.

This Orwell quote speaks of that;

" At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is “not done”… Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness. A genuinely unfashionable opinion is almost never given a fair hearing, either in the popular press or in the highbrow periodicals. "


Funny that!

And the court of PUBLIC OPINION tried on TV, was right on the money.

Funny that you should mention Orwell, in my particular case the man who was my father/mentor figure in my earliest formative years was my maternal grandfather. He and his politically minded friends all shared a deep sense of dread during this period in the early 1970’s that the United States was rapidly and determinedly moving towards such a society. He had a PHD and was retired as the Superintendent who ran a large steel mill. Many of his friends were similarly well educated retired businessmen and union leaders who weren’t simply the paranoid unread or selectively read outcasts and malcontents of society many people are considered to be when talk of grand conspiracies is brought up.

I have to say in many ways their individual fears about the future potential for loss of liberties and indoctrinated thought conformity in the United States and how technology would be employed in that process have been borne out and in some ways far exceeded those fears.

The great danger to a society full of yes men is the same great danger of a business full of yes men. Most people employed in managerial systems in larger companies feel an inherent security is too gained and had at agreeing always with the policies and plans of the managers above them and the directors and owners at the top.

In meetings where the policies and directives are being formulated and formalized the yes men can’t wait to say yes, and proclaim the brilliance of what ever idea comes out from above them in the hierarchy, even when their own logistical and practical experiences tells them it’s a bad idea that will impede their productivity and profitability and make their job all the march harder if not even impossible, they will still say yes, great idea, I am on board.

I on the other hand in large part because of how my thinking process works will just bluntly say when that oral vote of acceptance is making it’s rounds around the table “That’s about the stupidest idea I have ever heard in my life”. Jaws will drop, eyes will lower, faces will redden, heads will shake in disagreement by the gathered yes men.

When the meeting is then shortly dismissed and the other managers asked to leave, I will be asked to stay to speak privately with the owners and directors. My fellow subordinate managers will gather at the water cooler to lament what they speculate is about to be my termination from employment. In the reality the owners and directors are then in fact respectfully looking at me and saying “Alright, what is it I should really be doing here”

Yes men offer no solutions, or better or more effective ways. No men do. Yes men can’t be counted on to share and factor in their unique perspective on the logistical hurdles they alone must encounter in their field of endeavors. It is the no men, that share accurately and fully the intelligence and the reality on the ground those insulated at the top never see and encounter.

The reality my job as a no man is typically the most secure in any company. On a microcosmic scale I become the CIA, MOSSAD, KGB of the company, and the owners always know if I am saying it’s a stupid idea, it’s not that it’s a stupid idea for me, it’s a stupid idea for the company.

The trick is of course in offering sound logistical solutions that really can get better results when presented to logical results oriented minds. Yes men are so busy trying to figure out how to make the logistically impossible or unproductive possible and usually aren’t focused on real viable solutions as a result. No men are constantly looking; exploring, formulating and calculating the logistics of really get the job done.

Yes, I suppose in an imperfect world, it needs yes men to blindly follow and carry out the orders of the day. In businesses that really achieve it’s the no men that are typically the ones who end up formulating the policies that the yes men can and do say to themselves as well, and not just their bosses, yes I can carry that out.

Never underestimate the true value of the disagreeable type that is never easily persuaded.

I am not anti-Semitic or anti-Israel, I am pro making Israel truly work in a totally and maximum efficiency way. What I am always disagreeing with and saying no to are the things and aspects and perspectives and logistics that I am personally convinced is keeping it from working in a maximum productivity type of way.

You can count on me honestly speaking my mind and saying no I don’t agree in all cases that I don’t agree.

In my book that’s a lot better friend than the one who lets you drive home drunk on your bald tires on an icy road, just because you want to and are sure that you can.

The no men of the world are saying no for real reasons. The peril in not listening to no men is not from them. The peril is in doing things without considering all the other things smart minds are seeing and considering.

I am committed to trying to make the entire world a more peaceful and productive place for everyone.

That won’t happen blindly agreeing to and following ideas and policies that prevent it from being a more peaceful and productive place.

It would be great if in the mean time Israel would change the name of it’s country to Semite…so that the people who disagree with Israeli domestic and foreign policy can be more accurately labeled with the anti charge.

No man is an island, neither is any nation. Getting along with others is what it’s all about. Pressuring others to ignore their objections and reservations and ideas and to silence them for the sake of expediency, ego and image is the best way I know of to end up in Bankruptcy Court. Considering them and employing them is the best way to end up on the Fortune 500.

Needless to say the United States needs a lot more no men speaking up right now too. Dictatorships are never run for the good of the people or productivity, they are run entirely for the sake of vanity and glory. Meanwhile banks and retailers still only accept cash!

reply to post by Skyfloating

There's also a difference between the person who exposes the Mossad for its evil-doings and the person who exposes the Mossad in order to collect material that will confirm his belief in "the inherent evil of the parasite Jew".

I can't think of an intelligence agency the world over that isn't run with the premise of breaking all the laws and morality of a people in a concerted effort to ensure the systems longevity and dominence. Can you?

Probably the worst thing that ever happened to America was the day when a few dissafected rich and entitled men decided to form the OSS to employ their unique skills in a way the traditional military heiarchy would have never recognized or employed them in an individual.

Personally I think a lot of what motivated them was not patriotism but trying to cover up some of their business dealings and investments in the Axis powers to preserve reputation.

That they realized the power such a clandestine, unhinibited orginization wtih wide latitude to go anywhere and employ any method to get the objective done would always have a benefit to people of such wealth and influence is not surprising.

In my humble oppinion the CIA has grown to become a monster that redners the notion of representative democracy mute and inaffective.

Neither the people nor always anyone in any other branch of government including the President has an idea of what they are doing and why sometimes.

The world was a better place when it was just a Nation's Embassador charged with gaining intelligence on the ground and lobbying foreign nation's heads and business leaders for support.

Some would argue it wasn't safer, but ultimately I think the safest and most productive relationships between nations occur when you aren't externally trying to subvert and supress the people's desire for an individual type of political system that works for them, and foisting on them one that doesn't.

Ultimately it leaves the agressor nation in an advesarial role to the little people on the ground who can and do topple regimes that oppress them and deny them a quality of way of life. Once the puppet regime is gone you do end up with a situation where a country like Iran is always going to be resentful and suspicious of a country like the USA.

Finding ways to get along and to celebrate the differences of different cultures in productive ways is what the Ambassadorial notion is all about.

The intelligence agencies of the world really just end up causing havoc.

I shudder, and I mean I do shudder to think what would happen to the relationship between Israel and the United States if they did play a part in 9-11 and it were to ever be proven.

In my humble oppinion other nation's are like women. Never forget their anniversaries, birthdays, special occassions and fail to send them a card and a gift, and always remember to tell them how pretty they look even when no they don't fit in those bluejeans or look good in them and you will always get along.

It's called diplomacy and it gets a lot harder when your best freind (The CIA) as already let it slip out that you would rather date their sister or neighbor.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

It’s called ADL- concerned first and foremost with Anti-Jewish Defamation. Pleeease challenge this. But first consider the former Jewish Director who is facing trial for transgressions related to espionage.

Which disproves the idea that organizations such as the ADL are above the law.

Just to rehash this with an update having to do with this:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks to the NSA, it might prove you right that the ADL and AIPAC aren't above the law. But this revelation (not yet fully established) would suggest that these organizations have been assisted and protected from legal consequences related to their subversive espionage for Israel.

Your general claim that Israeli interests haven't undermined, or compromised US national security has been discredited by this surfacing information.

Sorry bud but your Black Prop position that there isn't helped by this. There would, as this NSA disclosure would suggest, Zionist Conspiring within the Federal government. Ouch.

Of course you are free to continue upholding the now absurd notion Israeli interests aren't given advantage in the government.

reply to post by Moonsouljah


Also, this doesn't help your position that anti-Zionist sentiment is limited to anti-Semetic feelings as non-Jews are here evidenced to have undermined the national interests for the sake of protecting Zionists agents essentially advancing the Zionists cause.
Still don't see a problem with Zionism in America?

reply to post by Moonsouljah


My position is not that Israel is clean or does not attempt to influence U.S. Politics.

My position is that the "World Conspiracy Theory" that says that Jews run everything, including the media, is false and that this specific conspiracy-theory is promoted by groups who themselves wish to seize world domination.

reply to post by Moonsouljah


It's funny how criticizing Israel is "anti-Semitic" as if Jews were a race or something. They are not, and Zionism was never about Judaism, but about the ethnic Hebrews. Someday people will know the difference.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Let's be honest here- what person, group, or institution that makes any assertion about a large group of people sharing an ethnic identity collectively running everything would be taken seriously? Surely you wouldn't take a person that said such things as credible in their claims. Maybe some but never all all. Anyone who said all worked in step as the heads of a Power Elite theory should be ruled out immediately.
And then I still see a glaring disconnect between Jewish and Zionist with your understanding. (Example If I thought all or even just some Jews ran the world why would my theory qualify as a Zionist theory? What if they didn't happen to be Zionist Jews? Or inversely, why would asserting that Zionists run America imply that Jews run America? Or perhaps you're simply ascribing inherent qualities to groups without reasonable proof.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
It is correct that criticizing Israel does not make one an anti-semite. What a coincidence though that around 30% of these Israel critics also happen to be Holocaust-Deniers and proponents of the "Jewish Bankers Conspiracy"

That's a #ing bold claim to not back up in the slightest.