If the Roswell UFO was real, what brought it down?

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
We're still debating whether it even happened or not, or whether it was even an alien craft;

Well its been 60 years... what's the hold up? I mean debate is one thing but seriously....

Originally posted by Learhoag

If the Base Commander had let it be known that what was really found was a spying balloon, the Russians would have been alerted and possibly taken steps so that further atomic explosions were not so easily found out.

Really. And what kind of steps do you think the Russians would have been able to take to hide an atomic blast?

Originally posted by Learhoag
A report of a UFO does not raise concern in the USSR. Ergo, lie through your teeth and then say it was a weather balloon. The Russians are still not concerned, not about a weather balloon.

The Russians were never concerned about a report of UFO's because the Russians already accepted the fact that UFO's were real, and actually had scientists study the propulsion and power systems of those things. More commonly refered to as "Hyperdimensional Physics" and "Quantum Physics", which in those years, the western science community dismissed it, and these days, readily embrace it and study it.

It is most likely, that the Russians were laughing their behinds off at the western world for creating such rubbish nonsense. They have about a 70 year head start of the western science world, and when the Iron Curtian fell, much of that research became available to the western science community, and for about 15 years, the western science world was still discrediting it. It has only been within the last 10 or so years that the western world of science has seriously embraced this real physics and have been playing catch-up ever since.

My grandfather served at the Roswell Air Base in 47 as a security guard during the time of the incident. His brother was stationed at the Alamogordo Air Field near my hometown and also played part in the testing of the first atomic explosion at Trinity.

According to my grandfather, there was alot of activity on the base that entire day and well into the night hours in and around that hanger until the next day when the flew alot of cargo from that hanger out to Wright Patterson Field.

As to what all that cargo was that warrented the use of a transport carrier, I doubt seriously that a simple weather ballon would require such a huge aircraft for several little pieces of parts as seen in that press photo that could be flown out in a single engine airplane.

Just before he died, he said to me "Roswell, it happend". At that time I did not take it seriously but looking back on that and his history of service at the RAF base, I do not doubt his word one bit.

Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by RFBurns

Just before he died, he said to me "Roswell, it happend". At that time I did not take it seriously but looking back on that and his history of service at the RAF base, I do not doubt his word one bit.

Cheers!!!!

That's amazing and also so hard to believe, I mean if you knew without a doubt that something of that scale had happened why for the love of god would you keep it to yourself? Fair enough, you possibly wouldn't go around town with a sandwich board but to keep it from your own family? It doesn't make any sense. It's a WORLD changing event and you don't tell anyone because you were told not to? I don't buy it.

Originally posted by Learhoag
If it was possible for you to be at Roswell Base, you would not know that there were secret projects spying on the Russians to see if they were setting off atomic bombs. No one at Roswell knew this.

Mogul balloon trains had return addresses on them so when found by civilians they could be returned to the army. Even rewards were promised for returning the Mogul balloons. There was nothing special about them and they had crashed before. So your claim that nobody at the Roswell knew is quite amusing.

So when one of those secret projects was eventually buffeted by a storm and the debris landed on a piece of land that had a keeper and he found the stuff, it was reported as found: balsa wood, strings, some kind of rubberized material, etc. This is what was picked up and reported.

No this is what was reported:

muller.lbl.gov...

If the Base Commander had let it be known that what was really found was a spying balloon, the Russians would have been alerted and possibly taken steps so that further atomic explosions were not so easily found out. A report of a UFO does not raise concern in the USSR. Ergo, lie through your teeth and then say it was a weather balloon. The Russians are still not concerned, not about a weather balloon.

This must be the most twisted logic I read in a long time. Why say it was a flying saucer when they could have went with the weather balloon story from the start? Using a flying saucer as an excuse is the dumbest thing one could do, especially since the Arnold sighting was recieving widespred press coverage at the time.

Then some entrepeneurs decided to make some money out of something that should have stayed in moth balls.

Your endless money angle is getting old fast. Ever read a book in school? Was this book free? I didn't think so but of course your money angle is convenient in this case because it allows you to attack the researchers in an attempt to discredit them. I mean why attack the evidence if you can attack the person.

If the true story had been publicized it would have never taken off and authors would not have been able to lie through their teeth to make money. Hey, why don't we rely on old, questionable memories from people who were questionable to begin with.

No Learhog you are the one that is questionable here. You have used the same tactic time and time again. You are not interested in evidence, you just offer endless speculation and opinion and pass it off as fact.

Questionable witnesses? You mean the questionable members of the
509th bomb group that were the only unit in the world with A-bomb capabilities?

You mean people like Brig. General Arthur E. Exon and Brig. General Thomas Dubose? These men have recieved more decorations and medals then you would ever earn in ten lifetimes.

They are highly respected by the US Air Force as can be read on their biograph pages.

www.af.mil...

www.af.mil...

No offence but I find your attempt to pass these men off as questionable witnesses hilarious to say the least.

The intelligent who are also adept at research have never fallen for the Roswell b.s. that has sold millions of books and movies, etc. The intelligent don't give two hoots about Roswell, it's the gullible that keep the industry going and it's good money for Roswell every year when the gullible go there and are taken to the various sites to search for pieces of the imaginary craft.

Are you going to add anything of substance or are you going to continue to provide only speculation and opinion?


[edit on 13/3/09 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by zorgon
Well its been 60 years... what's the hold up? I mean debate is one thing but seriously...

Could it be various theories? Even within the UFO believers there is no agreement about what crashed. For example, from an earlier post...

According to insiders on Project Camelot there were two crashes both were future humans and they were brought down by strong Radar of the time

Then there is Nick Redfern's theory on what happened.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by zorgon
Well its been 60 years... what's the hold up? I mean debate is one thing but seriously...

Could it be various theories? Even within the UFO believers there is no agreement about what crashed. For example, from an earlier post...

According to insiders on Project Camelot there were two crashes both were future humans and they were brought down by strong Radar of the time

Then there is Nick Redfern's theory on what happened.

OK Savior, if i were to say (hypothetically of course) that the thing what crashed in Roswell was indeed a UFO and was indeed ET in origin, what would you say that brought it down. Honestly I should of wrote that first

reply to post by diamount



it was all staged..

no advanced alien crashes their ship.

no alien who can warp time can't correct having crashed before they crash.

ooops we decided to "crash"

-

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by zorgon
Well its been 60 years... what's the hold up? I mean debate is one thing but seriously...

Could it be various theories? Even within the UFO believers there is no agreement about what crashed. For example, from an earlier post...

According to insiders on Project Camelot there were two crashes both were future humans and they were brought down by strong Radar of the time

To you Zorgon, they have finished the debate phase; we are now in the jury stage, please hold on.....

There are several theories , never recieving the entire story, add in 60 years, idea's have grown and diminished

As far as the various theories, If you ask 5 people how to make a cake, you get 5 different answers, but in the end , you have a cake, A UFO did crash, details involving are many and different, but a UFO did crash

[edit on 13-3-2009 by branty]

reply to post by prevenge



Sorry but I find the ET theory more plausible then that.

Originally posted by diamount
...if...the thing what crashed in Roswell was...indeed ET in origin, what would you say that brought it down...

You can't see me shrugging, but that's what I'm doing. And that is the best answer anyone can give. We don't even know what brought down and shredded the mogul balloon in the official explanation.

Originally posted by diamount
Sorry but I find the ET theory more plausible then that.

That is Prevenge's hypothesis. That it was the ETs themselves that staged the event.

en.wikipedia.org...
Project Mogul (sometimes referred to as Operation Mogul) was a top secret project by the US Army Air Forces involving high altitude balloons, whose primary purpose was long-distance detection of sound waves generated by the turbulence of the rising hot air from Soviet atomic bomb tests and ballistic missiles. The project was carried out from 1947 until late 1948 and was made obsolete by seismographs and spy satellites.


[edit] Project Mogul and the Roswell UFO incident
Main article: Air Force reports on the Roswell UFO incident

Wreckage consistent with launch number four was found 75 miles northwest of Roswell[2]
the Air Force published a report suggesting that Mogul Flight #4, launched from Alamogordo, New Mexico on June 4, 1947, was what crashed near Roswell, New Mexico and formed the source of the debris which sparked the Roswell UFO incident. According to the report, the initial crash investigators were unfamiliar with Project Mogul and released to the public information on the disc with microphones that had been mounted on the balloon. The Project was at the time highly classified, so the government quickly suppressed accounts of the disc and insisted that only an innocuous balloon had crashed. This led to the later rumors of the disc being a classified alien spacecraft.

--Below is a good read--
www.csicop.org...


Many witnesses of the debris described tape with flower designs or hieroglyphics on it. Moore recalls that the reinforcing tape used on NYU targets had curious markings. "There were about four of us who were involved in this, and all remember that our targets had sort of a stylized, flowerlike design. I have prepared, in my life, probably more than a hundred of these targets for flight. And every time I have prepared one of these targets, I have always wondered what the purpose of that tape marking was. But . . . a major named John Peterson, laughed . . . and said 'What do you expect when you get your targets made by a toy factory?'"

--Another good read--

www.crystalinks.com...
Some officers at Roswell, particularly Major Marcel, allegedly bungled the identification of the Mogul balloon equipment and then compounded the blunder by putting out a press release that they had instead recovered a "flying disk."
Once the crash was publicly revealed and since Project Mogul was top secret, a coverup was imposed to protect the project's secrecy.

First, I want it to be known that I do believe in "Unidentified Flying Objects" which the "Roswell Incident" was one. As far as "alien origins", I think not.
As far as the "Pro Alien" side, there is a theory that the crash resulted from all the magnetic anomolies that occur over the "Capitan Mts" where the actual crash site was only some miles from the east end.(Yes, the Capitans are an "East to West" mountain range.)
Now as far as "Pro Alien" go, Roswell is nothing but disinfo and propraganda to steer the public away from another incident that happened at the same time just north of there. "The Aztec, N.M. Crash"

www.ufocasebook.com...

Originally posted by branty


According to all the debunkers, space has no UFO's ,but a lot of space debris, dust, ice particles, maybe 1 of those pieces hit them,

This makes me think that UFO's might just be space debris burning up in our atmosphere and then "disappearing" quickly.

If I had to guess, I'd say that whatever they were flying was designed for zero gravity flight in normal conditions. And even if it were designed to deal with some amount of gravity, it may have been well designed around the gravity of wherever they hailed from, not our planet. Perhaps it is not a very stable craft to be flying within our atmosphere. Who knows! But I think there are probably many reasons why it might crash.

But just consider: There are still plans of going to Mars. They practice being on the surface (saw a cool special on this), and all the issues they would have to deal with. It's pretty clear that even going one planet over is decidedly dangerous, fraught with many perils. I'd guess traveling across the galaxy and being somewhere completely alien to another species might be just as harrowing, regardless of how advanced they are.

Hell, for all we know, it could have been some teenage alien , taking the old mans ride out for a joyride, picked up a few of his friends , and went cruising.

We are proud to have Gazrok here:
he researched the case you are talking about in the OP in some very deep way, in my humble opinion: it would be nice to have him in this discussion : did you try to contact him?

Thanks for the intro, but I'm no more than a humble researcher...
My research is here if you're interested, but fair warning, it's a LOT of material: www.abovetopsecret.com...

No real UFO, just harmless lies to keep our secrets secret and it was worth whatever they went through to see that it stayed that way. It was that way for 33 years. Then some entrepeneurs decided to make some money out of something that should have stayed in moth balls.

I actually had the same idea in mind when I started my research of the case. However, the evidence led in a completely different direction.

The intelligent who are also adept at research have never fallen for the Roswell b.s. that has sold millions of books and movies, etc. The intelligent don't give two hoots about Roswell, it's the gullible that keep the industry going and it's good money for Roswell every year when the gullible go there and are taken to the various sites to search for pieces of the imaginary craft.

Or, one could reason, that it's crazy to assume people (especially top ranking intelligence officers, sergeants, and generals) could somehow mistake balsa wood and tinfoil for pieces of an E.T. craft.

Some officers at Roswell, particularly Major Marcel, allegedly bungled the identification of the Mogul balloon equipment and then compounded the blunder by putting out a press release that they had instead recovered a "flying disk."
Once the crash was publicly revealed and since Project Mogul was top secret, a coverup was imposed to protect the project's secrecy.

Goes back to above...how could one misidentify this? Even a kid who has eaten a Hershey bar or flown a rubber band airplane is pretty familiar with foil paper and balsa wood... In addition, the debris (and this is a fact) was flown to Ft. Worth and Wright Field, bases with personnel dedicated to examining foreign technology. And it was the military that said "disc", not the press, and yet there isn't any part of Mogul that would fit this description (no, not even the RAWIN target)....

Many witnesses of the debris described tape with flower designs or hieroglyphics on it.

If you define "many" as "two" (Moore and Bessie Brazel). In addition, skeptics have still failed to produce this tape, even though allegedly, it was purchased by the military....(i.e. no records?). If only UFOlogists were permitted to rest their ideas on such unsubstantiated claims.

So, how did it/they crash?

From the evidence, there were two crash sites, so either two pieces of the same craft, or two different craft. Again from the evidence, one crash site consisted of just debris, no real large pieces, and a second crash site had a more intact vehicle. The two crash sites are supported by witness testimony from numerous individuals, the military cordons established, and the details one can barely make out in the Ramey memo (though the legibility in blowups of this is still constantly debated).

Since one site had a more or less intact ship, it would seem plausible that there were two craft involved. As to why they crashed....we still don't know, but many have put forth the idea that early radar is to blame...the idea being that the radar waves were unexpected, and interfered with whatever propulsion system was being utilized. Indeed, the 40's are mostly where we see the most crash cases....seems they wized up fairly quickly.....

It's all speculation. I personally doubt the storm theory (it was storming the night of the crash, as said though), as even we've made spacecraft that can weather lightning fine, and of course, lightning is fairly common on other worlds even here in our own solar system. Surely, a craft vulnerable to lightning would not be ideal for space travel and planetary visitation. I personally lean towards the radar theory....

In any case, something caused the two craft to crash into each other, and one seemed to fare better than the other. I'll admit, I initially resisted the idea of two crashes, but the evidence does support this...from the witnesses who handled the debris at each site, to the witnesses turned around by the military cordons. In addition, the sheer number and size of the flights out of the airbase indicate more material than that just at the Foster Ranch site (the most documented crash site).

The military's own behavior in all of this is the real kicker. I don't see any CO in their right mind boxing up foil paper, neoprene and balsa wood, and ordering it to be flown to Wright Field or Ft. Worth, as some emergency foreign tech to be examined. He'd be booted out faster than he could salute....

My Roswell research days are long gone so please forgive me if I cant recall certain details.

The whole notion of Aliens and UFOs is absolutely unbelievable, that is, unless you have seen the phenomenon with your own eyes. If you have not then you are only left with the choice to either entertain the possibility that it might be a reality, or its just the vivid imagination of snake oil salesmen. The intelligent would consider both.

How many of you have taken the time and trouble to go to Roswell and walk the desert there? Oh, of course the town is now filled with many UFO museums that are filled with pictures, paper Masha dummy's and someone standing outside with their hand held out accepting your kind donation.

How many of you have walked the now closed Roswell Army Air Field there, and noticed how large it is. While there did you find out the base was closed twice? How many noticed that this base was closed the last time during a war (Vietnam)? How many of you realize that this act alone is enough to make you wonder what could be that important to close one of the largest military installations the United States had?

There is a witness who informed me threw a friend that all major roads leading into the area were in fact guarded by military police using jeeps with machine guns mounted on them. Would you do that for a balloon or a crash test dummy?

I know many of you have never seen a UFO, and believe me, life is so much easier if you don't, but if you have, your life will never be the same again, you are forced to take the red pill. For those of you who still insist Roswell was some intelligence plot, and there is no truth in UFOs, please do yourself a favor, and take the blue pill, and trouble yourself no further.

For those who know the truth about UFOs, also know there is no reason to doubt something happened. I have read all the books that were available in the 1980s and in one of them there was a story of a archaeological group who actually arrived at the crash site before the military, only because they were already in the vicinity. This would not be the debris field but the craft that was found later, intact. The book covered the testimonial of the leader of the group, and I cant remember his name.

He stated that when they arrived they noticed "Beings" lying outside the craft. They also noted the "Damage" on the craft itself. He said when they looked into the gash of the damage, they could see inside the craft, and what they saw was quite interesting. He said there were bundles of what appeared to be fishing line with tiny little lights on the ends of them that were cut by the damage. Back in the 80s, fiber optics were unknown to the general public.

He also described the damage to the craft itself. It was approximately 3 or 4 foot long tapering to a fine point, 1 to 1 and a half feet wide, at its widest. He also stated that the edges of the damage were curled outwards in a fashion similar to what you would expect from an explosion from within. Again, please forgive me if my memory has failed me in some of the details.

If all the previous points are true, then what brought down the craft might be obvious, to some. The question from this point might be "But why?" That would open up another group of possibilities.

But for now I will simply say, it appears that it brought itself down, for one reason, or another.

Your comments are representative of the kind of delusion preferred by most ATS members.

reply to post by All Seeing Eye

Put your money where your mouth is. Or cease.

Originally posted by branty

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by zorgon
Well its been 60 years... what's the hold up? I mean debate is one thing but seriously...

Could it be various theories? Even within the UFO believers there is no agreement about what crashed. For example, from an earlier post...

According to insiders on Project Camelot there were two crashes both were future humans and they were brought down by strong Radar of the time

To you Zorgon, they have finished the debate phase; we are now in the jury stage, please hold on.....

There are several theories , never recieving the entire story, add in 60 years, idea's have grown and diminished

As far as the various theories, If you ask 5 people how to make a cake, you get 5 different answers, but in the end , you have a cake, A UFO did crash, details involving are many and different, but a UFO did crash

[edit on 13-3-2009 by branty]

Underground blasting

Sorry, RFBurns but I don't take your thinking and theorizing seriously since you'd rather believe fantasy than a probable real event not involving anything to do with aliens or alien craft.

I don't accept hearsay as a final conclusion and depend on irrefutable evidence to approach a final conclusion.

I quoted 2 books that may not be irrefutable evidence, to me, but they are more believable than anything professed for Roswell being the site of what has made more sense as a fantasy than reflecting reality.

A lot of wishful thinkers want to believe and quote this or that but in the end, not one of them has been able to come up with any evidence.

Originally posted by RFBurns

Originally posted by Learhoag

If the Base Commander had let it be known that what was really found was a spying balloon, the Russians would have been alerted and possibly taken steps so that further atomic explosions were not so easily found out.

Really. And what kind of steps do you think the Russians would have been able to take to hide an atomic blast?

Originally posted by Learhoag
A report of a UFO does not raise concern in the USSR. Ergo, lie through your teeth and then say it was a weather balloon. The Russians are still not concerned, not about a weather balloon.

The Russians were never concerned about a report of UFO's because the Russians already accepted the fact that UFO's were real, and actually had scientists study the propulsion and power systems of those things. More commonly refered to as "Hyperdimensional Physics" and "Quantum Physics", which in those years, the western science community dismissed it, and these days, readily embrace it and study it.

It is most likely, that the Russians were laughing their behinds off at the western world for creating such rubbish nonsense. They have about a 70 year head start of the western science world, and when the Iron Curtian fell, much of that research became available to the western science community, and for about 15 years, the western science world was still discrediting it. It has only been within the last 10 or so years that the western world of science has seriously embraced this real physics and have been playing catch-up ever since.

My grandfather served at the Roswell Air Base in 47 as a security guard during the time of the incident. His brother was stationed at the Alamogordo Air Field near my hometown and also played part in the testing of the first atomic explosion at Trinity.

According to my grandfather, there was alot of activity on the base that entire day and well into the night hours in and around that hanger until the next day when the flew alot of cargo from that hanger out to Wright Patterson Field.

As to what all that cargo was that warrented the use of a transport carrier, I doubt seriously that a simple weather ballon would require such a huge aircraft for several little pieces of parts as seen in that press photo that could be flown out in a single engine airplane.

Just before he died, he said to me "Roswell, it happend". At that time I did not take it seriously but looking back on that and his history of service at the RAF base, I do not doubt his word one bit.

Cheers!!!!