Does the "Eye" and "Brain" kill Evolutionary Theory?

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Again you have to bring up religion. I'm honoured to be persecuted by you.

Nothing else to bring up I guess? No problem.

I don't see how it's persecution...

Originally posted by B.A.C.
The first time? It's been 150 years and 100 tweaks later and it still isn't right

Anyone can write a story to fit facts. That's not science. It's science fiction.

Scientific theories ARE made to fit facts.
That's how it works.
You obviously have a problem with that - fine.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

I am born again and believe that evolution and creation are one in the same.
This idea I have not heard or seen discussed.
My thought is, if my idea is correct, then there would be no need to fight over the difference.
I have traced the fossil record back to the tiniest found life forms.
They had to be created or create themselves from inorganic's.
Either way, call the first one God, Buddha, The Great Father or make up your own name. All life would descend from the first one and replicate from that intelligence. Becoming more sophisticated exponentially.
A brain or eye is an easy task in 4 billion years from that kind of intelligence.
You can check the fossil record or read the bible. Both are worshiped by a hell of a lot of good people. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Hi Donny,

Your idea is similar to Theistic Evolution - Source

Personally, I think this belief allows science and religion to move forward.

I dig it ... although I do not believe in a god myself.

The reason why Theistic Evolution is not brought up in many of these threads is that it is essentially agreeing that the theory of evolution is correct in it's explanations and predictions and this would therefore make a discussion about whether or not the theory of evolution is valid a moot discussion to begin with.

Members like BAC disagree fundamentally with the theory of evolution and so, at this point in time, will not accept that argument.

Shame really, because he may find some peace.

reply to post by Horza


I have peace with my beliefs. I do believe in MiE BTW. I have a problem with the theory only, not the facts.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Wanted dead and alive

Perhaps we can come to a sensible compromise. I think we can all agree that, in OP's head, the 'eye' and 'brain' have killed evolutionary theory stone dead. At any rate, something has.

I believe we can further agree that evolutionary theory is likewise dead in the brains of other creationists. Or maybe it's just undead, since they're forever having at the corpse with rosaries, wooden stakes and strings of garlic. Well, either way...

And whether we agree about those things or not, it is quite impossible to disagree that, as a scientific theory, evolutionary theory is alive and well. It is so well supported by evidence that all scientists - a few creationist mouthpieces excepted - accept it as true. New evidence, as it comes in, always bears the theory out, even though it sometimes provides grounds for refinement or modification because that is how science works. And new research studies which assume evolution as a given are successfully concluded every week.

Remember, evolution is a scientific theory. And as such, it's doing remarkably well.

As a cultural influence, it's done pretty well too. Even the OP, who feels himself persecuted because some people don't believe in the same things he does, must agree that evolution is now an integral, unavoidable part of the intellectual foundation of modern civilization and culture.

So there you have it: evolutionary theory is both alive and dead. It is alive in the world, and in science, with no evident danger to its continued health and success; and it is dead in the minds of creationists - as if anyone cares.

reply to post by Astyanax


If you don't care then why post your drabble?

ALL scientists believe in Evolutionary Theory? Come on now, stay focused.

I'm going to put on my garlic necklace right now and dance under the light of the moon



[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

reply to post by B.A.C.

I'm going to put on my garlic necklace right now and dance under the light of the moon.

You mean that's the best a creationist can do to protect himself from the fearsome bogey of Evolution? You mean the Eye and Brain are not powerful enough to kill the slavering monster after all?

Interesting.

reply to post by Astyanax


Tell me is a matter random or is it real ?

Tell me!!! How do we get anything if it is not created ?

Tell me!!! How can we have changes if nothing is created ?

Tell me!!! Can you have evolution without a creation first Or do we need evolution to have a creation.


What comes first evolution or creation ?



PS. Do we need a equation before anything is created ? So we know what is created.

Don't we need matter and a equation to make things happen. If so who controls the matter and who controls the equation ?

Or is the equation and matter random ? Meaning things are created randomly at a constant speed.

PS. But its not random for two humans to create a new human.

BUT!!

It's random for two humans to create a ape. And for two ape's to create a human. That is so random it has never happen.

BUT!!

According to science that could happen again any time in the future. By random mutation. Humans becoming something else greater or less than a human.

If a human is borne with two heads and one hart. Its called a false mutation. But what if two humans with two heads each mated. Would they create a new baby with two heads and two harts ?

Can we know that before hand or do we have to wait and see what comes out of the proses ?

Who is in control of the equation ?



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Horza

Originally posted by jfj123

I see the problem now. You simply have no understanding of the scientific method. You have a learning gap in this area which needs to be filled. My suggestion would be some basic college science courses. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm being serious. The fact that you don't understand the basics, I think is causing the whole problem.

I have to agree with this 100% ...

BAC,

Because you have taken this "debate" in direction of proclaiming ignorance, then I am going to take it down to the level that you so obviously feel more comfortable with.

Your argument that evolutionary science does not explain the brain and the eye is wrong.

There is nothing you can post to change this, unless you completely change your mind and agree that evolution is a valid and testable scientific theory that explains and predicts the origins of species, including the evolution of the human brain and eye.

Everything that you have posted contrary to this, has had no basis in fact or logic, let alone science.

Therefore, this debate goes to the side of the negative.

I sincerely hope that your future threads will hold more substance than "I don't have to offer any evidence to try and prove my side of the argument because I am right"

Not only is that a pointless and boring debate to be part of but it goes directly against the motto of this site.

Peace

Edit spelling

[edit on 16/3/09 by Horza]

Very well said and incredibly accurate !
I feel a need to star this post

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by Astyanax

 

If you don't care then why post your drabble?

ALL scientists believe in Evolutionary Theory? Come on now, stay focused.

I'm going to put on my garlic necklace right now and dance under the light of the moon

[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

This is an example of BAC's obvious agenda to try and discredit Evolution in favor of religion. BAC's idea of: never provide factual information but constantly attack and keep attacking until everyone goes away, is remarkably similar to the way scientology tries to silence it's detractors.
Here's an example so you can see what I mean

specifically start looking at 2:07 minutes.
I'm sure BAC will say he's not a scientologist so before that comes up, I'm not implying that. I'm saying this is an example of what BAC is doing in his posts. Notice how they attack and try and put the reporter on the defense and make the reporter prove everything, yet they never back up ANYTHING they say.

BAC has no evidence to suggest evolution is incorrect.
BAC can't refute any evidence posted here.
BAC can't even refute the definition of evolution yet BAC's stance never changes. Why is that?

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Astyanax

 

Tell me is a matter random or is it real?

It's real. It is also the same as energy. I don't know what you mean by 'random'.

Tell me!!! How do we get anything if it is not created?

It was always there, or it popped into existence on its own - symmetry breaking occurring among quantum fluctuations in spacetime.

Tell me!!! How can we have changes if nothing is created?

The universe is made up of moving things. They bump into one another or exert forces on one another and other stuff is created as a result.

Tell me!!! Can you have evolution without a creation first Or do we need evolution to have a creation.

Evolution is real. I don't know what you mean by 'a creation'.

What comes first evolution or creation?

Creation, by definition, precedes evolution. What is your point?

Do we need a equation before anything is created?

No.

Couldn't make sense of the rest of your post. Sorry.

You people are so far of.

B.A.C is not saying that the eye wasn't made through a proses. Everything is made through a proses. Even he knows that.

The question is what proses made the eye originally.

There is no way in hell science can know that. Because they only have the eye to observe. They didn't observe the original creation of the eye.

Originally posted by spy66
You people are so far of.

B.A.C is not saying that the eye wasn't made through a proses. Everything is made through a proses. Even he knows that.

The question is what proses made the eye originally.

There is no way in hell science can know that. Because they only have the eye to observe. They didn't observe the original creation of the eye.

Reread my posts and do some research and you'll understand how science can "KNOW THAT". You're making the obvious mistake in that you're assuming that since we cannot witness something with our own eyes, we can't know whether it's right or wrong. Obviously there are many examples that prove this is not true.

Obviously your religion does not allow you to believe in evolution for some reason. Something to keep in mind however is that even the pope agree's with evolution.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by jfj123]

reply to post by Astyanax


Ok so you know that matter and energy is real !

Then you go on to say! That matter or energy can just appear out of nowhere and disappear to nowhere.

But you dont know what random is ?

But isn't appearing and disappearing a random event ? Or do you know when thing do appear and disappear ?

Then you say things happen because things bump into each other or by just exchanging energy. Isn't that a random event ?

Isn't evolution a random proses caused by energy and matter in the same time space dimension ?

Because what you just told me dont make sense.

Energy or matter cant just appear or disappear. Because if it does where dose it go to and where dose it come from. Do you have any observations to go along with that event ?

I know it has been observed but that is all we have done. There is no more conclusion to that event.

There are three stages to reality - , 0 , + and = cause . With out that equation you dont have jack shiiiit.












[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Astyanax

 

Ok so you know that matter and energy is real !

Then you go on to say! That matter or energy can just appear out of nowhere and disappear to nowhere.

But you dont know what random is ?

But isn't appearing and disappearing a random event ? Or do you know when thing do appear and disappear ?

Then you say things happen because things bump into each other or by just exchanging energy. Isn't that a random event ?

Isn't evolution a random proses caused by energy and matter in the same time space dimension ?

Because what you just told me dont make sense.

Energy or matter cant just appear or disappear. Because if it does where dose it go to and where dose it come from. Do you have any observations to go along with that event ?

I know it has been observed but that is all we have done. There is no more conclusion to that event.

Just curious where you're going with this? No offense but your points are really hard to follow.

Also to answer one of your questions.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed only transformed.

Originally posted by spy66
Ok so you know that matter and energy is real! Then you go on to say! That matter or energy can just appear out of nowhere and disappear to nowhere.

But you dont know what random is?

I know what 'random' means. Are you sure you do?

But isn't appearing and disappearing a random event?

Not necessarily.

Or do you know when thing do appear and disappear?

Depends on what the thing is. I kind of know the sun is going to disappear from my view in less an hour's time.

Then you say things happen because things bump into each other or by just exchanging energy. Isn't that a random event?

Not intrinsically, although it may be as good as random to someone watching it.

Isn't evolution a random proses caused by energy and matter in the same time space dimension ?

No.

Because what you just told me dont make sense.

With respect, that is not my fault. You need a better education than the one you seem to have. No offence, just stating facts.

Energy or matter cant just appear or disappear. Because if it does where dose it go to and where dose it come from. Do you have any observations to go along with that event?

Google 'quantum foam'. Prepare to be astonished.

There are three stages to reality - , 0 , + and = cause.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean. Sounds like a cargo-cult version of Hegelian dialectics.

With out that equation you dont have jack shiiiit.

Nice swerve around the automated censors there. Your faith in mathematics is simple and charming.

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Astyanax

 

Ok so you know that matter and energy is real !

Then you go on to say! That matter or energy can just appear out of nowhere and disappear to nowhere.

But you dont know what random is ?

But isn't appearing and disappearing a random event ? Or do you know when thing do appear and disappear ?

Then you say things happen because things bump into each other or by just exchanging energy. Isn't that a random event ?

Isn't evolution a random proses caused by energy and matter in the same time space dimension ?

Because what you just told me dont make sense.

Energy or matter cant just appear or disappear. Because if it does where dose it go to and where dose it come from. Do you have any observations to go along with that event ?

I know it has been observed but that is all we have done. There is no more conclusion to that event.

Just curious where you're going with this? No offense but your points are really hard to follow.

Also to answer one of your questions.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed only transformed.

What i am saying is:

A human eye dont just happen randomly it has to be put together by a proses. Every eye for every kind has to go through a specific proses suited for its kind.

And that proses is controlled by a equation.

And every kind has its own equation.

Humans have their own equation. Birds have theirs. Monkey's have theirs and so on.

But we shear the same pool of matter and energy to fit our kind. But we dont shear the same symbols in the equation. Because if we did we would all be the same.

reply to post by Astyanax


You dont know what you know. Is what your telling me.

Originally posted by spy66
A human eye dont just happen randomly it has to be put together by a proses. Every eye for every kind has to go through a specific proses suited for its kind. And that proses is controlled by a equation.

No, it can be modelled (theoretically) by an equation.

A mathematical equation isn't a magic spell. You can't intone 'E = mc^2' and bring forth light out of the void.

And every kind has its own equation. Humans have their own equation. Birds have theirs. Monkey's have theirs and so on.

This is just superstition, though rather an appealing one.

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by spy66
A human eye dont just happen randomly it has to be put together by a proses. Every eye for every kind has to go through a specific proses suited for its kind. And that proses is controlled by a equation.

No, it can be modelled (theoretically) by an equation.

A mathematical equation isn't a magic spell. You can't intone 'E = mc^2' and bring forth light out of the void.

And every kind has its own equation. Humans have their own equation. Birds have theirs. Monkey's have theirs and so on.

This is just superstition, though rather an appealing one.

Why bring in E=

This is what a equation looks like before you put things into it.

There are two possible ways:

1. The symbol of equality: =

2. The symbol for inequation: ≠ is not equal to; does not equal.

When you start to bring matter and cause into the equation you will either get = or not ≠


A equation sure ain't a magical spell but a fact.

Then you have the symbol for infinity. But science dont like this one that much. It sort of messes up their theories.

PS. A perfect vacuum dosent fit in all that well either.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by flitstone42


"What good is half a wing? Or an eye which is not fully functional?"

Dude, its more useful than no wing at all or no eye at all.

Imagine the distance a creature has to fall to die e.g. a squirrel that falls 20 ft will be killed by the impact. Half a wing will slow its descent enough that it will survive this fall. This gives the squirrel an advantage over squirrels without half a wing so it lives to pass on its genes. See how that works?

Creationists should look to themselves for the answers to these kinds of questions. The partially functioning brain they have seems to work better than no brain.