Why would glass be stronger on the Moon?

The state of the art of RESEARCH seems seriously flawed here at ATS lately...


According to Harvard, Los Alamos Labs and NASA...

Internos and Learhoag are WRONG and the OP and Hoagland are RIGHT

Lunar materials and derivatives such as glass may posses very high tensile strengths compared to equivalent materials on Earth because of the absence of hydrolytic weakening processes on the Moon and in the hard vacuum of space. Hydrolysis of Si-O bonds at crack tips or dislocations reduces the strength of silicates by about an order of magnitude in Earth environments. However, lunar materials are extremely anhydrous, and hydrolytic weakening will be suppressed in free space. Thus, the geomechanical properties of the Moon and engineering propertied of lunar silicate materials inspace environments will be very different than equivalent materials under Earth conditions, where the action of water cannot conveniently be avoided. Possible substitution of lunar glass for structural metals in a variety of space engineering applications enhances the economic utilization of the Moon.

adsabs.harvard.edu...

In layman's terms... no WATER in te mix makes it stronger by an "order of magnitude"


One of the most interesting 'side effects' of glass making on the Moon is that it releases OXYGEN in the process. The same is true of mining the Iron Oxide, Titanium Oxide and Thorium Oxide... and since all these materials are abundant on the surface in the regolith, all you need is a solar furnace for smelting

This free oxygen can then be used for breathing or making water or rocket fuel

Amazing isn't it how the Universe provides for us?

LUNAR AND MARTIAN FIBERGLASS AS A VERSATILE FAMILY
OF ISRU VALUE-ADDED PRODUCTS
by Gary "ROD" Rodriguez, Systems Architect, sysRAND Corporation

Lunar Regolith consists principally of silicates, in some cases as volcanic or impact glasses. We continue to contend that silicon is more versatile in application than all of the other Lunar available elements combined and shouldn't end up in Lunar slag heaps and instead should be the fundamental building block for a wide range of value-added products in a CisLunar economy. Fabrication of silicate glasses are conventional industrial processes and anticipated tensile strength of glass made under hard vacuum is an order of magnitude greater than glass produced in atmosphere containing water vapor.

The logic employed in our reasoning includes the fact that any In Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) effort is going to yield copious masses of silicon oxides which can be used in bulk as conventional glass products or, after further separation, can be synthesized as Silicon and Silicon- Carbide Fullerenes for more exotic applications. Additionally, mechanical wrapping of Silicon Webbing could prove to be more practical and durable and a lot less brittle than attempting large scale hot glass molding of structural components.

Identified fuel production ISRU efforts yield partially heated masses of metal oxides as waste byproduct – rich in silicates and metal oxides useful in bulk as conventional glass products. Fiberglass manufacturing increases effectiveness of prior ISRU fuel production by taking advantage of mineral benefaction and elevated process exit temperatures. The resulting structures would be spheres and cylinders with various configurations that could apply to human support systems, along with structures useable as storage tanks for the very Oxygen liberated in ISRU applications.

ISRU can manufacture more than fuels: even spacecraft are feasibly and affordably manufactured on Moon based upon fiberglass "tankage" integrated with fiberglass keels. Second generation structural components may take advantage of Silicon Nanotubes for additional composite strength. Diverse products for human systems support are manufacturable in-situ using glass fibers and fabrics, and CNC-type programmable manufacturing delivering state-of-the-art flexibility of remote design and parts manufacture. These concepts suggest extensibility and evolutionary capability derived when machining tool parts from fiberglass.

Contemporary Terrestrial industrial composite fiber products range from pressure vessels to lightweight sporting goods. A large number of products related to human systems support can similarly be manufactured in-situ using fiber fabric made from lunar silicate glass. Building structures using spun glass would be similar to those currently employed by Raytheon Aircraft or Scaled Composites to build composite aircraft. Pressure containers, structural components, woven fiberglass fabrics, molded and machined solid objects, glass fiber and filament are each large classes of value-added products.

This file is in the public domain available on CD from LPI

or from me... as PDF

www.thelivingmoon.com...


So while yawl are arguing the yea's and nays' of glass on the Moon... now you have the reality



Internos 0
Hoagland 1




PS In Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU)

Get used to it. It means what is mined on the Moon STAYS on the Moon


...

[edit on 13-3-2009 by zorgon]

Towards a Lunar Glass Fiber - Metal Composite: Production

adsabs.harvard.edu...

Processing Glass Fiber from Moon/Mars Resources
Dr. Dennis S. Tucker1 and Edwin C. Ethridge2

Abstract
Processing of Lunar/Mars raw materials into usable structural and thermal
components for use on a Lunar/Mars base will be essential for human habitation. One such component will be glass fiber which can be used in a number of applications. Glass fiber has been produced from two lunar soil simulants. These two materials simulate lunar mare and lunar highlands soil compositions. Short fibers containing recrystallized areas were produced from the as-received simulants. Doping the highland simulant with 8 weight percent boria yielded a material which could be spun continuously. The effects of lunar gravity on glass fiber formation were studied utilizing NASA’s KC135 aircraft. Gravity was found to play a role in crystallization and final fiber diameter.

science.nasa.gov...

AH there it is I knew I would find it...

Water and Glass

In Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the Twenty-first Century (W.W. Mendell, ed., 1985), James D. Blacic of Los Alamos National Laboratory wrote about "Mechanical Properties of Lunar Materials Under Anhydrous, Hard Vacuum Conditions: Applications of Lunar Glass Structural Components" (p.487). He states that, "Hydrolysis of Si-O bonds at crack tips or dislocations reduces the strength of silicates by about an order of magnitude in Earth environments." This means that lunar anhydrous glass is about an order of magnitude (10x) stronger than Earth glass we are familiar with, and can be useful as a structural component. Experiments confirm this. Anhydrous lunar glass or glass composites can be made into "a lightweight structural material with several hundred thousand psi tensile strength."

www.lunarpedia.org...

There you have it TEN TIMES STRONGER and SEVERAL THOUSAND PSI STRENGTH

Hoagland may have his faults to be sure... but he is not alone

Originally posted by Ecidemon
I had always assumed that the reason any material would be stronger made in space (or on the moon) would be the lack of impurities. Something that lacks impurities is markedly stronger than something that does.

I do not think the lack of impurities make every material "stronger". Take gold for example , 100% pure gold is actually black and much MUCH weaker than it's impure brother , which has the golden color

Ah, yes, www.thelivingmoon.com... "Uncovering A Well Kept Secret" Can't be well kept if it's revealed! And who does one find at "The Living Room"? Why, good ol' John Lear he of Lunar Bases and Mines, and Cities Explored and ex-ATS.

Enuf said.


reply to post by zorgon

Originally posted by internos
[SNIP]

I am serious about the information I provided on the strength of glass on the moon which I thought was the question in the OP

Are you so upset with Herr Hoagland that you missed the data from NASA and other scientific sources?

I would expect better from a subject matter expert... can you please address the material?

Thanks



[edit on 14-3-2009 by zorgon]

Mod Edit: Removed Off-topic quote.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by Learhoag
Ah, yes, www.thelivingmoon.com... "Uncovering A Well Kept Secret" Can't be well kept if it's revealed! And who does one find at "The Living Room"? Why, good ol' John Lear he of Lunar Bases and Mines, and Cities Explored and ex-ATS.
Enuf said.

So you too didn't read any of the data on the glass in your haste to attack the messenger?

Are you guys so out of it that you cannot even see the reality? Those documents are not from my site, the official sources are clearly posted...

Why not try actually READING the material that specifically addresses the OP's question instead of derailing the thread with personal vendettas?

And yet your nickname Learhoag shows the love you feel for them

No wonder ATS is 'slipping'





[edit on 14-3-2009 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon


But, zorgon....how is the glass manufactured in a 'hard vacuum' on the Moon when you and John claim that it actually has an atmosphere?

Stronger everything in a vacuum or devoid of contaminating
gases.

A van de graff generator was used for X-ray tubes but had
to be encased in a pressure chamber.

Somehow the zapping power was increased.

ED: Just had this thought about the Moon making things
more difficult for living. I think we get the idea but lets
not discourage future space cadets.

[edit on 3/14/2009 by TeslaandLyne]

Just in case ANYONE is paying attention... it is the lack of WATER in the glass making that makes it stronger. This is just easier in the dry atmosphere on the Moon or the vacuum of space

ANHYDROUS meaning NO WATER

reply to post by zorgon


Yes, we know what anhydrous means.

I'm just sayin', with all those people exhaling in the atmosphere on the Moon, since according to John it's a shirt-sleeve environment....moisture from people's lungs would contaminate the so-called 'dry' atmosphere, n'est pas?

Has anyone seen Richard Hammond's Engineering Connections on the Airbus? There was a section on that on glass manufacture. I can't remember exactly but I think it was stated that normal glass manufacture intoduces tiny fractures in the glass and it is these that make the glass susceptible to shattering.

He demonstrated the making of glass fibre which somehow removes these fractures and the resulting fibre was extremely strong and flexible. I think it may even have been claimed that the glass had the same strength as steel.

So it's possible to make extremely strong glass on Earth. On the moon I'm guessing the reduced gravity would make it possible to have much larger expanses of glass that won't break under their own weight. It's also much easier to move them around. And there may be something about the moon's environment that makes the whole manufacturing process that much easier as others have stated.

EDIT: Just found this video (Richard Hammond again) showing how strong glasses and plates made from bullet-proof glass are. This isn't real glass but a polycarbonate but who's to say aliens wouldn't use that as a building material?

[edit on 14/3/2009 by MarrsAttax]

reply to post by MarrsAttax


Was that a real show, or an infomercial???

Really, I want the patent on 'transparent aluminum', as seen on Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home.

McCoy: "Perhaps if you use the keyboard..."

Scotty: "The keyboard? How quaint!"

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by zorgon

 

But, zorgon....how is the glass manufactured in a 'hard vacuum' on the Moon when you and John claim that it actually has an atmosphere?

Yeah, excellent point. Although the atmosphere is only on the far side of the Moon (which is why we can all see ourselves there is no atmosphere on the near side )

So if the alien glass were manufactured on the atmosphere-free near side of the Moon it'd be stronger, presumably even if the used on the far side where all the people live?

Of course, being technologically advanced aliens there's no reason they couldn't just build their domes and stuff out of diamond which would be even stronger .....

[edit on 14-3-2009 by Essan]

reply to post by MarrsAttax


Thanks for at least addressing the topic

Bullet proof glass... we have all seen that from the old thick stuff to the new Lexan... I wonder how that holds up against micro meteorites?

reply to post by Essan


Yeah...Essan.....

I'd like to see this 'glass' manufactured on the Moon.

Ummmm....but of course, good luck bringing the result bact to Earth.....

Guess a Star Trek 'transporter' is the way to go......

From what I've been lead to believe, glass created in a vacuum would be stronger than steel because all the impurities that effect the manufacture of glass here on Earth would be removed. The fact that there would be no water or air born impurities would strengthen the glass to the point it would be as strong, if not stronger, than steel.
However, some of the pictures and testimony concerning the moon hints that the moon may have a very thin atmosphere, therefore, all of this is void. Before we can judge whether steel created on the moon is stronger than steel created on the Earh first we have to evaluate whether we are being told the truth about the moon?

I cannot be wrong for I never said anything in favor or against the qualities of glass. I criticized Hoagland for stating that there are glass structures on the Moon that our Lunar Orbiters and other exploratory satellites plus the astronauts failed to see. I criticized Hoagland's claims.

Originally posted by zorgon
The state of the art of RESEARCH seems seriously flawed here at ATS lately...


According to Harvard, Los Alamos Labs and NASA...

Internos and Learhoag are WRONG and the OP and Hoagland are RIGHT

Lunar materials and derivatives such as glass may posses very high tensile strengths compared to equivalent materials on Earth because of the absence of hydrolytic weakening processes on the Moon and in the hard vacuum of space. Hydrolysis of Si-O bonds at crack tips or dislocations reduces the strength of silicates by about an order of magnitude in Earth environments. However, lunar materials are extremely anhydrous, and hydrolytic weakening will be suppressed in free space. Thus, the geomechanical properties of the Moon and engineering propertied of lunar silicate materials inspace environments will be very different than equivalent materials under Earth conditions, where the action of water cannot conveniently be avoided. Possible substitution of lunar glass for structural metals in a variety of space engineering applications enhances the economic utilization of the Moon.

adsabs.harvard.edu...

In layman's terms... no WATER in te mix makes it stronger by an "order of magnitude"


One of the most interesting 'side effects' of glass making on the Moon is that it releases OXYGEN in the process. The same is true of mining the Iron Oxide, Titanium Oxide and Thorium Oxide... and since all these materials are abundant on the surface in the regolith, all you need is a solar furnace for smelting

This free oxygen can then be used for breathing or making water or rocket fuel

Amazing isn't it how the Universe provides for us?

LUNAR AND MARTIAN FIBERGLASS AS A VERSATILE FAMILY
OF ISRU VALUE-ADDED PRODUCTS
by Gary "ROD" Rodriguez, Systems Architect, sysRAND Corporation

Lunar Regolith consists principally of silicates, in some cases as volcanic or impact glasses. We continue to contend that silicon is more versatile in application than all of the other Lunar available elements combined and shouldn't end up in Lunar slag heaps and instead should be the fundamental building block for a wide range of value-added products in a CisLunar economy. Fabrication of silicate glasses are conventional industrial processes and anticipated tensile strength of glass made under hard vacuum is an order of magnitude greater than glass produced in atmosphere containing water vapor.

The logic employed in our reasoning includes the fact that any In Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) effort is going to yield copious masses of silicon oxides which can be used in bulk as conventional glass products or, after further separation, can be synthesized as Silicon and Silicon- Carbide Fullerenes for more exotic applications. Additionally, mechanical wrapping of Silicon Webbing could prove to be more practical and durable and a lot less brittle than attempting large scale hot glass molding of structural components.

Identified fuel production ISRU efforts yield partially heated masses of metal oxides as waste byproduct – rich in silicates and metal oxides useful in bulk as conventional glass products. Fiberglass manufacturing increases effectiveness of prior ISRU fuel production by taking advantage of mineral benefaction and elevated process exit temperatures. The resulting structures would be spheres and cylinders with various configurations that could apply to human support systems, along with structures useable as storage tanks for the very Oxygen liberated in ISRU applications.

ISRU can manufacture more than fuels: even spacecraft are feasibly and affordably manufactured on Moon based upon fiberglass "tankage" integrated with fiberglass keels. Second generation structural components may take advantage of Silicon Nanotubes for additional composite strength. Diverse products for human systems support are manufacturable in-situ using glass fibers and fabrics, and CNC-type programmable manufacturing delivering state-of-the-art flexibility of remote design and parts manufacture. These concepts suggest extensibility and evolutionary capability derived when machining tool parts from fiberglass.

Contemporary Terrestrial industrial composite fiber products range from pressure vessels to lightweight sporting goods. A large number of products related to human systems support can similarly be manufactured in-situ using fiber fabric made from lunar silicate glass. Building structures using spun glass would be similar to those currently employed by Raytheon Aircraft or Scaled Composites to build composite aircraft. Pressure containers, structural components, woven fiberglass fabrics, molded and machined solid objects, glass fiber and filament are each large classes of value-added products.

This file is in the public domain available on CD from LPI

or from me... as PDF

www.thelivingmoon.com...


So while yawl are arguing the yea's and nays' of glass on the Moon... now you have the reality

Internos 0
Hoagland 1

PS In Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU)

Get used to it. It means what is mined on the Moon STAYS on the Moon


...

[edit on 13-3-2009 by zorgon]

I use Learhoag not to honor the two gents but to pour scorn on them. I want to keep their memories alive for they are jokes along with people such as Kaysing, Rene, Steckling, Childress, von Daniken, and all of those UFO books authors.

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Learhoag
Ah, yes, www.thelivingmoon.com... "Uncovering A Well Kept Secret" Can't be well kept if it's revealed! And who does one find at "The Living Room"? Why, good ol' John Lear he of Lunar Bases and Mines, and Cities Explored and ex-ATS.
Enuf said.

So you too didn't read any of the data on the glass in your haste to attack the messenger?

Are you guys so out of it that you cannot even see the reality? Those documents are not from my site, the official sources are clearly posted...

Why not try actually READING the material that specifically addresses the OP's question instead of derailing the thread with personal vendettas?

And yet your nickname Learhoag shows the love you feel for them

No wonder ATS is 'slipping'





[edit on 14-3-2009 by zorgon]