The American Dream is OVER

Face the facts. The American economy is dead and buried.

Except the corpse owes China.

Big time.

Insolvency or servitude, that is the question.

(Probably both.)

The American Dream drove a generation (or two). Obama may well be at once it's epitome - and it's final curtain.

What does this mean to the psychology of the American people? Will there be weeks/months, even years of self-delusion, a mass-psychosis? Or will the reality be so stark as to force the populace to face it, with an inevitable sense of loss, disillusionment, and loss of self-confidence - both on an individual and national scale?

Such a virtual mass psychosis characterized the end of the Soviet era. Are Americans different?

I like to believe there is more to America than measuring self by the size of one's economy.

If so, what I would cite as core American values will make the American experience different from the Russian:

1) The Constitution and the Bill of Rights

2) A belief that citizens have responsibilities to others

3) Historically inexhaustible determination and resourcefulness

Is this enough for the US to remain 'great', both in the eyes of the world, and in the eyes of its citizens? Is it sufficient basis for the creation of an economic pheonix?

How well will you personally, and those you know, cope with the knowledge that America is now...

...number two?

Or below?

(Welcome to the experience of all great nations/empires. China and even India may have their day. Yet their time will come, inevitably...)

I'm sorry to disagree with you, my friend. However, so long as there are still dreamers inside this great nation, the American dream will continue to live on. I refuse to accept that it is over, which is the reason I continue to fight against those who try to crush it. My only desire and my only dream is that my children will always be able to wake up from their big dreams and recognize that the abillity to reach whatever they dreamt about is in their reach.

I saw the film The Watchmen last night. There was this scene where the "Comedian" is busting up a crowd, being real violent, and another guy asks him what happened to the American dream, the Comedian's response was "it came through".

It is done. The dream was gobbled-up by the greedy. The politicians had their way and tried to enslave all of us, it worked for a while, but now we are all fed up, which makes me mad because no one cares about our dying soldiers...but shutdown a Taco Bell and all hell breaks loose.

reply to post by pause4thought


Well have you noticed the markets today it seems that America is still living at least Citi bank is.

So hey everything is peachy, Americans can now go back to live on loans and credit.

How do you figure it's over?

You tell me, if I wanted, that if I sold my business here in Canada..
Got 600,000k I couldn't move to a nice, small, place in the U.S for 300,000k and live on the rest?

[edit on 10-3-2009 by xbranscombex]

reply to post by xbranscombex


...And if the banks that hold that cash rely on nothing but government handouts, cash printed out of thin air and (possibly virtually bankrupt) banking insurance system - to maintain the illusion that they could return your hard-earned savings, and if there will be so many people out of work there will be few goods/services to purchase (admittedly still developing, but apparently totally unavoidable), and if (I mean when) the consequences of both the above really kick in, causing hyperinflation...

where do all those zeros leave you?

With zero.

I'm saying people will have to face this sooner or later. But a lot of people are still in denial.

Many who study international politics/economics have seen this coming for years, even decades. The current meltdown has simply accelerated the inevitable.



[edit to add:]

Sorry, I passed over the fact that you are based in Canada. Some aspects of my response are clearly more aimed at those in the States (-the focus of the thread).

Nevertheless very few other countries are headed for anything but meltdown. And the reverberations are very likely to see savings melt away across the globe.

This is not an attempt at scare-mongering. I'm saying it's happening.

If anyone can convince me the fundamentals of the American economy are now anything other than an illusion I will retract the assertion in the title.





[edit on 10/3/09 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by xbranscombex
How do you figure it's over?

You tell me, if I wanted, that if I sold my business here in Canada..
Got 600,000k I couldn't move to a nice, small, place in the U.S for 300,000k and live on the rest?

[edit on 10-3-2009 by xbranscombex]

Move to Detroit and you can do it for under $7,000.00.

I am sure there are other places were this is true also,

If USA makes the right moves, the best could be ahead :

Originally posted by Rigel
Anok is right on the point, speaking of an ideal socialism, that would be governmentless, id est ANARCHISM. That's not however the problem questionned by the OP.

Still, many countries are running on a partially socialist model, France beeing one of it, and maybe the most efficient, economically as well as socially.

While France and USA partake in many common political parameters, it seems that the idea of the State deeply differs - in theory as well as in facts.

In France, the State is equally perceived by right or leftwing politicians as the first garantee of the people - ie the citizen's - liberty. Also an american could see France as a leftish state, all well considered.

It's now viewed as a basis of french citizenship to :

1 - Get thousand of euros when you have babies
2 - Get half or third of your salary for MONTHES when fired or lose your job for any reason - just need to have worked... 6 monthes !
3 - Can not work at all and get the RMI : Revenu Minimum d'Insertion or Minimal Income for Insertion, which is about 500 euros, so half of the SMIC, this one be the Minimal Wage per Hour, the same for any professional activity, about 1000 euros - per 35h/week - for one month.
4 - Free HealthCare for All (since several yrs) : CMU, Couverture MAladie Universelle, or Universal Disease Cover : anybody has free access to high-tech healthcare (yeah, you read well).
5 - Right of Strike
6 - Powerfull Unions defending the workers rights and interests (but NOT in a lobbyst way, except for the MEDEF, he Unions of... Capitalists Owners)
7. Prudhommes : A Juridical court that deals with workers/boss cases, most of time in benefice of the worker.
8 - Pension : You give money to the State through a tax through your life and get money (like the third of you salary) from your 60's anniversary to the end of your life.


Sounds bad ? Not to me...

Thread




[edit on 10-3-2009 by Rigel]

reply to post by Rigel


How much of that will continue if/when the government is bankrupt?

Think about it.

Except the corpse owes China

I keep seeing this posted on how China owes the USA. This isnt true. Yes they own a substantial amount of US Debt, but it only amounts to 22%. I would say this is far from owning anything.

[edit on 10-3-2009 by tide88]

reply to post by tide88


A corpse can't pay its debts. Once the US somehow has to start repaying in terms of assets, China will own plenty.

And China was only used as an example. The fact that the US owes so much elsewhere only compounds the problem. Vast debt here, vast debt there. Not much comfort in that, surely?

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I'm still living my dream.

I do think there will be a rough road for the next few years but we'll get through it.

Perhaps we'll come out better because of this readjustment.

Best of luck to everyone.

reply to post by Wildbob77

I'm still living my dream...

...said the smartly-dressed, but hooded gentleman, as they tightened the noose.

If this is a readjustment, what would the midst of a crash look like?! I ask you to bear in mind the fundamentals, not just a coc aine-induced 'rally'.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
Sorry to bust your bubble, but I'm still living my dream.

I do think there will be a rough road for the next few years but we'll get through it.

Perhaps we'll come out better because of this readjustment.

Best of luck to everyone.

I agree. I am living my dream too. I have made more money this year then ever before. In fact I have upgraded my job and pay significantly because of the situation we are in. I originally owned a small painting business in SW Florida, but of course with the construction industry the way it is now and has been over the past year and a half, business was real slow. I went out got an Insurance Brokers License and a Job and now am on pace to have my best year ever. If the economy didnt go the way it had I would still be a painter, I job that I actually never liked. This is the definition of the american dream. One bad situation has turned into a great opportunity for me. I couldnt be happier. I do agree the debt is a little scary. However you are looking at about 30-35 pecent of our debt held by foreign governments. Of course that number rises with other individual foreigners that are buying securities, but as you can see, no nation is close to owning the USA. Even if all the nations together pooled all their bonds and securities they would still be far from a majority ownership. Not saying our debt isnt a problem, but to claim that other foreign governments own the USA is just plain wrong as is the claim that the American Dream is over.

[edit on 10-3-2009 by tide88]

reply to post by tide88


It's genuinely great to hear you are doing well. But what about the bigger picture? The nation?

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama forecast the biggest U.S. deficit since World War Two in a budget on Thursday that urges a costly overhaul of the healthcare system and would spend billions to arrest the economy's freefall.

An eye-popping $1.75 trillion deficit for the 2009 fiscal year underlined the heavy blow the deep recession has dealt to the country's finances as Obama unveiled his first budget. That is the highest ever in dollar terms, and amounts to a 12.3 percent share of the economy -- the largest since 1945...

..."I think we just ought to admit we're broke. We can't continue to pile debt on the backs of our kids and grandkids," said John Boehner, leader of the Republicans in the House of Representatives.

Source

reply to post by pause4thought


As I said the debt is worriesome however I dont think it is the end of the american dream. We are looking at higher taxes in the future, maybe some more gas tax, legalization of marijuana, etc. Guess we will have to wait and see what actually happens.

I wouldnt say its over, yet.
But its getting damn close.

Drastic action needs to happen, towards the bankers, corporate entities and big government.
If these three factors are allowed to continue after, or during the crisis.... then the dream will end.

America can not survive another 5yrs unless it changes things at the top... and at the moment, that looks like the last thing on its agenda.

reply to post by pause4thought


The American dream stated to die when the middle class in America started to lose its income as the Industries move oversea.

Now the dream is already death to those millions of people on foreclosure.

An as for the debt this nation owns to the rest of the world we are an indebted nation that no longer can hold the position of number one.

Debt Servicing Debt, a Recipe for Disaster

$787 billion to fund "stimulus," another $9 trillion committed to guarantee bad debts, 0% interest rates and quantitative easing to drive more lending, new off balance sheet vehicles to hide from the public the toxic assets they've absorbed. All of it to be funded with debt, most of it the responsibility of taxpayers.
…

Picture it if you will: the economy stabilizes, money flows out of Treasurys, which drives interest rates back to normal. Asset values that had appeared to stabilize fall again. More writedowns ensue, more balance sheets turn up insolvent. The debt deflation conflagration ignites again, burning up what's left of the economy.

The fed and the government of this nation has created a toxic cycle that will only end on the collapse of the American economy completely.

When that happens the take over by global banks and elite will be in place with in the name of a national global banks entity to monitor all financial systems in the world and specifically US economy.

Our tax payer money or whatever this new entity will be able to squeeze out of us will be to support the private interest and wealth of those behind the Federal Reserve

Right now the United States is spending, trillions more in loan repayments, and zero percent interest rates on Federal Reserve funds. This system cannot continue forever. At our current pace, we are just making Foreign takeoversSecretary of State on a goodwill mission overseas to secure more loans.

For those that still subscribe to the American dream I hope that your don't wake up to see realities nightmares.

www.economyincrisis.org...






[edit on 10-3-2009 by marg6043]

I think that we're going to see an inflationary depression.

So, right now interest is low but that will change when the government starts the printing presses to pay off China and their other debts.

I think that we'll pull out of this one but it will take awhile and I think that inflation will be something that we learn to live with.

reply to post by tide88

As I said the debt is worriesome however I dont think it is the end of the american dream.

I'd like to have the same optimism regarding the current situation, and I respect you for it. It does look to me like the chickens have only just started to come home to roost, though.


reply to post by Agit8dChop

I wouldnt say its over, yet.
But its getting damn close.

Drastic action needs to happen, towards the bankers, corporate entities and big government.
If these three factors are allowed to continue after, or during the crisis.... then the dream will end.

America can not survive another 5yrs unless it changes things at the top... and at the moment, that looks like the last thing on its agenda.

A succinct, yet insightful response to my mind. But if change ain't gunna happen...


reply to post by Marg6043


You state my position perfectly. Debt servicing debt on such a scale means continuation is but an illusion.

(Good link to back up your point.)


reply to post by Wildblob77

I think that we'll pull out of this one but it will take awhile and I think that inflation will be something that we learn to live with.

I admit that is the middle position. Do you actually believe Americans will, despite crippling debt, manage to make their way in life as in the past, and that America will thereby maintain its position of supremacy in the world?