WAR: Spain to Pull Troops out of Iraq ASAP.

Just to put things it a bit of perspective and make things clear.

It was Zapatero's manifesto pledge well before the Madrid bombing to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.

The then opposition party was against the war from the beginning which was in line with overwhelming public opinion before the war.In polls 90% of Spaniards were against the war and the Spanish government position.

Initially after the bombing it was thought that it would have an opposite effect to what actually occured.

So why was Zapatero elected?

He was elected because despite growing evidence in the days after the bombing that it was Al Qaeda the spanish government vociferously maintained that it was ETA.

Basically,the Spanish government were spinning the Madrid bombing for political advantage.

Now people(mainly Americans) are saying that the Spanish are giving into terrorists when it is quite simply the position that Zapatero's political party has maintained(in line with public opinion) since well before the war in Iraq.

Would you rather they reneged on their manifesto pledge?

Would you rather the will of the Spanish people be ignored and democracy in that country undermined just so Americans can throw a few Spaniards in the firing line instead of Americans?

Originally posted by John bull 1
Just to put things it a bit of perspective and make things clear.

It was Zapatero's manifesto pledge well before the Madrid bombing to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.

So why was Zapatero elected?

I do not know what your sources are but if you look back at the poll numbers in Spain before the bombing you will see that Zapatero was losing badly.

And after the bombings of 3/11 there was a total shift in his favor.

To say that Al-Qaeda's bombings in Madrid had nothing to do with the ultimate outcome of this election is foolish.

The facts do not lie!

Look for yourself and you may be more willing to believe it.

If Spain does not support the war in Iraq, based on the reasons we went there I am fine with that.

But they should prove to the world that they still support the war on terrorism.

By taking the 1,300 troops from Iraq and sending them to Afghanistan to help fight the war on terrorism, and show Al-Qaeda that they are not cowards and deny them the victory they claim.

This is Spain's best move, But what the hell do I know?

Gazz

Gazz,

The greatest effect the Madrid bombings had on the election result were on turn out.

More people voted than normal.

From this we can gather that supporters of the Socialist party don't normally vote as often as the Conservatives.

So to answer your point,yes the Madrid bombing did have an effect.

It was to make this election result more representative of public opinion,therefore more democratic.

You approve of democracy?

[Edited on 18-4-2004 by John bull 1]

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by StrangeLands
Spain's withdrawal will only prolong the conflict in Iraq, and make things more difficult for those troops who remain.

Huh????

I hardly see how the removal of Spain's 1,300 troops could prolong the conflic in Iraq. It's not like they had 30,000 infantry and 500 tanks.

The conflict in Iraq is nothing to do with military force, though. Our technical superiority is beyond question. Spain's withdrawal will lessen our "moral authority" when dealing with the rebel factions and prove to the terrorist forces that splitting the West can work. If we presented a united front - all the western "civilised" countries, not just the US and the UK - then we could eliminate the threat both to our wellbeing and the security of the Middle East that much more easily.

Sure, no-one's going to miss the Spanish Army. But we might miss the voice of Spain in the discussion of Iraq's future.

Originally posted by John bull 1Now people(mainly Americans) are saying that the Spanish are giving into terrorists when it is quite simply the position that Zapatero's political party has maintained(in line with public opinion) since well before the war in Iraq.

and im sure thats why spain was bombed, to get him in office and pull troops out so they are giving in and doing as the terrorists want, zapatero is a fool, it wont help and they will see more attacks on them in the future because it'll be seen as spain's weakness.

It's the democratic will of the Spanish people.

Would you deny them that ?

They marched on the streets against the policy of the Spanish government.90% of them were against the war.

Since when is it weakness when a people use their democratic right to change a government because of policies that are not in line with public opinion?

I understand your argument,I really do,but it doesn't stand up.

The effect of the bombing was simply to spur more people to vote.More people voted and that brought in a government that better represented the peoples views.

One point I think many are overlooking is that the war in Iraq was sold to everyone as a way of stopping terrorism.This despite recently exposed British secret service advice that the likelyhood was that it would increase terrorism.

When a policy has blatantly failed why shouldn't a democratic nation's people vote out a government that initiated a failed policy?

Governments are elected to protect their citizens.If a policy endangers those same citizens then surely they have the right to vote in a more representative government.

Or would you deny Spaniards their democratic rights?

In the final poll (March 7) before the election, and before the bombing the Popular Party led, 42-38. On March 14, they ended up losing, 43-38. Not a big swing, especially if you take the margin of error into account.

John Bull is right. The fact remains that the vast majority of Spaniards were against the war, which was a major factor in the result, as it is likely to be with Blair in next years U.K elections. Couple that with Aznar's ETA lies that infuriated a large number of Spaniards and you have a better picture of what happened than simple 'terrorist appeasement' as the U.S press would like you to believe.


[Edited on 18-4-2004 by kegs]

John, John, John, will you at least agree that this sends the wrong message to the terrorists?

Spain can pull out of Iraq as I said I am fine with that and I blame the Bush admin. for that.

But after being bombed by Al Qaeda spain must deny them this victory.

As I said before the best way to do that is to take the 1,300 troops from Iraq and send them to Afghanistan.

You don't think this is a good idea?

Gazz

Gazz,I'm happy to agree with you that it probably does send the wrong message to terrorists.

But since when has the people of a democratic country had to vote for a party that does not represent their views just to piss off terrorists.

That really would be terrorism effecting democracy.

Withdrawal from Iraq was part of Zapatero's manifesto.Before the war 90% of spanairds disagreed with Aznar's policy.

This is simply democracy at work.

I'd love to choose who runs countries other than my own and I'd love them to enact policies that I agree with.I'd certainly like Bush out for a start but I respect the right of the citizens of other democratic countries to elect who best represents their opinion.

Zapatero represents Spanish public opinion and he has done since before the war in Iraq.To deny him the right to follow through on his election policies actually defeats the very reason why we are fighting terrorism.

Everybody should except it even if they don't like it.I except Bush's policies even if I don't like them.

This is a good example of true democracy, independance and freedom.

the spanish government done what its citizens wanted didnt it?
spain isnt as strong as america so its citizens have never had to deal with these attacks spain has never really had a terrorist attack
if the spanish want to pull out let em they are under no oath of alegence to this conflict
i think the UN should move in and take over cleaning up the mess
we got ourselfs into more trouble than we solved
sure the war was necesarry but come on we have lost more troops to suprise and guerilla style tactics than we did in the all out war

Originally posted by John bull 1This is simply democracy at work.

no, its fear at work.

the turn out was only more because they wanted out and wanted to make sure it hapened, they didnt want him as leader, they wanted him because he would do this.

The Socialist Party was only lagging behind by 4% in the polls.

It's not like they were way behind.
What were the polls like in the US election?
Did the outcome differ by more than 4%?

The final opinion polls on the elections, published on March 8, three days before the bombing, showed Rajoy's party would win. An opinion poll by market research company Sigma Dos for the newspaper El Mundo put the Popular Party at 42 percent of the vote, compared with 38 percent for the Socialists.

quote.bloomberg.com...

Originally posted by AceOfBase
The Socialist Party was only lagging behind by 4% in the polls.

It's not like they were way behind.
What were the polls like in the US election?
Did the outcome differ by more than 4%?

The final opinion polls on the elections, published on March 8, three days before the bombing, showed Rajoy's party would win. An opinion poll by market research company Sigma Dos for the newspaper El Mundo put the Popular Party at 42 percent of the vote, compared with 38 percent for the Socialists.

quote.bloomberg.com...

this is guessing, its not neccisarily what wouldve happened.

Who cares about 1500 troops, you have so so many more. They can keep there 1500 troops. I laugh at 1500 troops. This shouldnt be in the news. I bet we have more dead than that.

just saying this u know the US and UK are running pretty low on allies and actually u dont have more than 1500 dead if u did u wouldnt be in iraq
also a 1500 man force can be really dangerous so do not diss it

Screw there 1500 stupid troops.


sorry 700 dead, atleast thats what there telling, if not 1500 dead, Twice that many have been injured, to the point of not being able to fight any longer.
www.worldmessenger.20m.com...

[Edited on 18-4-2004 by SpittinCobra]

The Spanish voters have decided that they do not want any part of Americas illegal and immoral war. Zapatero was elected by a majority on the basis that he would withdraw their troops. Democracy in action.

I wonder how many Americans would vote for this war, if they actually had a chance to vote on this issue ?

Australia will be next. Trouble is really brewing over here. Exactly the same thing is set to happen here at the next election. Mark Latham our opposition leader has made bringing our troops straight home his number one election pledge.

Our Prime Minister is now wavering on this issue. There is such a terrific ground swell rising that he cannot ignore it for much longer. We have a democracy here as well you know.

It is not a case of abandoning a friend in need.

It is more like you friend saying, lets go and do some real bad stuff. We will blow up that building, steal some stuff, and kill some people, wanna be in it ?

We don't need a friend like that.

"just saying this u know the US and UK are running pretty low on allies"

But they're closest allies, do you think they care if Spain comes or goes? The USA will just put more 1500 troops into Iraq, it has a million man army!

"dont have more than 1500 dead if u did u wouldnt be in iraq"

The coalition would still be there, but it would kill more people then it is now.

"also a 1500 man force can be really dangerous so do not diss it"

Yea, really deadly, but not as deadly as a 100,000 man force.

"We don't need a friend like that"

In 2010 when China becomes economically more powerful than the USA, and starts to become more expansionist I doubt an Aussie PM will be saying that.

imo, all this holy war is a bullcrap! Osama just uses that to control/brainwash his people! so they are loyal to him

if he really wanted to kill all people who don't have the same religion as they xo, they would have started with small countries first! and as you see they don't bomb or hurt the countries that invaded their land!

let's be honest! America and Britain are just robbers who entered the store to rob it, but didn't know the sales person had a shotgun!

I mean why would Americans care about Iraqis? they have to have their interes first!

and Oil is the main interess!

the only thing i don't get though is, why do American's and Britains do all those strikes against their leaders and stuff! I mean Bush and Blair are trying for their people right? of course their gonna earn something for themselves but people will benefit too!