This wouldn't have happened if people weren't as baby-obsessed in the first place. That is my beef. So, yes. Bring it on!!!

Originally posted by infolurker

Those "sheep" as you call them are AMERICAN human beings who love their
children, their wives, and their well being as much as YOU do.

Hell, those are AMERICAN people. That makes them so much more important, eh?

I didn't realise any thread started on ats automatically refers to the U.S. and the U.S. only. My bad. Sorry.

Oh yeah, I am fairly new here, can the mods please let me know when I'm being too harsh here. Ta.

*Mod Edit: Just editting for civility. Cheers. -alien

[edit on 10-3-2009 by alien]

I have been around this site for a few months, but this is the first topic that I have really wanted to respond to.

This same question is one that I have been wanting to ask a lot of people, not just on ATS.

The two main groups that I have seen that REALLY want the current systems to collapse, at least here in America are anti-capitalist, mostly Anarchist (go figure..) or extreme socialist (and no this is not a pun on Obama).. even more socialist than him. The other group are the ultra-right-wing conservatives that are more commonly known as Survivalist. Now, again, don't get me wrong.. I in my own right put a lot of time into Survivalism and preparation. These are two groups that I have come in contact with for the duration of the current economic downturn.

I'm not sure if everyone really knows what a full economic collapse means, or what it would mean for humanity if the NWO would "bring it on". It would be the biggest even this world has ever taken part in, with millions of deaths.. possibly even the end of civilization as we know it. I for one, want what I have created here on Earth to continue on after I have long since turned to dust. I want children born a hundred years after my death to inherit something better. That is naive I know, given the current state of our planet, but I will never loose site of that goal, as I think it is one worth fighting for.

With all of this being said.. let me give you some general, relevant information about myself.

I consider myself a anti-federalist, based on the federalist/anti-federalist distinction at the birth of our Constitution. I define my current philosophy as Conservative/Independent/Ultra-Libertarian. I am a survivalist at heart. I am a proud member of the NRA, and second-amendment supporter blood in blood out. I am a human that just wants my natural rights of life and liberty (which ARE the pursuit of happiness) to not be infringed by anyone other than the one that gave me those rights, God.

I am not a religious person. I believe in God. I am not religious. My relationship with God does not have be translated by a third party for me.

When I pray, I don't pray for myself.. I pray for everyone else. If you get what you need then I will get what I need, that is my philosophy.

I wish you all the best, and I apologize for the long post.

I want to change the world or have some small impact and be part of something bigger than myself that will be a significant era in human history. In a way I do want to see it, just out of curiosity and rage at the elite jerkwads and their henchmen. At least I've got a few guns and can do something when it happens. Or at least have a chance to survive. But I don't want to do what it takes to live through such upheaval. It's gonna suck...duh. I shouldn't have to say this but it needs to be said I think. I wish we could have a revolution like the first one. It was a romantic one with lofty ideals and heroic figures that turned out about as good as humanly possible. This one, the possible outcomes and routes there are endless. I'm guessing the chances are maybe 1/10 that we turn out to have a better world within the next 20 years, and I only give such GOOD odds because I believe that we could evolve, that 2012 fits into this somewhere and technology will somehow change the outcome, as opposed to what history has taught: generally a change in government results in no improvement to disparagement.

I would favor anything that ends the credit system we have, which is equivalent to slavery. I oppose any business that takes advantage of people's debt and uses it to offer them credit with interest so high that the person will have to work the rest of their life just to make the interest payments, let alone the actual amount charged.

Anything that changes our fiat money system to something more stable, without causing inflation would be what saves us.

The dollar is weakening while we're still getting paid the same amount from our paychecks, and having to spend more on bills.

I oppose over-consumption, where we constantly produce products that were never needed, and companies trying to force us to buy these products by making us think it's something we do need (new cars, new types of medicine, new TVs, food that is sold in bulk to normal households who will not consume as much, etc).

I would favor a system, where we have true Democracy, where the people make decisions, rather than electing others to make decisions for us in our current Republic system, later to find out those we elected abused our trust and only sell themselves and serves the interest of whoever has the money.

I would want a system where the goverment understands that they work for us, not the other way around - that we employ them and are their boss, and are not the ones who have to answer to the goverment, but they to us.

I want people to educate themselves and learn when they're being brainwashed by media propoganda, and to know more than one language, like all other countries in the world.

I want people to choose a different alternative than war, whenever we find a group that thinks differently than us.

What I do not want is chaos. Chaos will only lead to the men who have the most power to use their power to enforce their will on the people. These men will then accumulate groups and then form their own laws. These groups will then hold extreme justice to enforce their will, with the penalty of death to all who oppose. Those who resist are labeled as the terrorists, and are made to seem like the enemy of the people.

Chaos will lead to corruption, and corruption will lead to war.

[edit on Tue Mar 10th 2009 by DJMessiah]

A little off topic, but...

"And what we say is the truth is what everybody accepts. Right, Owen? I mean, psychiatry: it's the latest religion. We decide what's right and wrong. We decide who's crazy or not. I'm in trouble here. I'm losing my faith." -- 12 Monkeys

I really like this movie. Maybe it's just an escape for me, but these words have a nugget of truth in them.

Hell no! That's my answer. My mother survived the "Reset" of her country that you all seem so keen on. I grew up hearing the horror stories and feel almost like I lived it myself. In fact, I had to be put on medication for awhile just to stop the endlesss looping replay of the images rattling through my head torturing my waking moments and my dreams. That is just from HEARING about it second hand. My mother herself has always been a haunted shell of the woman she could have been. She is incredibly intelligent but horribly uneducated which is a tragedy to witness. She is lucky to have survived and yet extremely unlucky in many ways.

The starvation, the deprivation, the depravity--the utter horror. You people have no idea, do you? The elderly, the women and the children stand no real chance. The stronger the men, the more despicable they seem to become as a result of being twisted by the horror around them. Even if they somehow survive physically they are shells of human beings forever. If you want a reset so desperately, haul your asses off to Mexico or the Sudan and help rebuild those people over there. Live off those lands, put your superior strength and abilities to the test and since they already have the chaos you crave, go ahead relocate and get it over with.

My street is filled with sweet innocent little kids and nice older retired couples who do everything to make holidays meaningful for all of us younger harried parents. They wouldn't stand a chance if the country as we know it collapses. We have no natural resources near us. None of us has had the time to be educated for anything beyond surviving in our office jobs. I guess that makes us expendable to a lot of ATS'ers. Fine, so be it.

Sign me officially disgusted and massively disappointed. I guess I'll need to look to some other resource for us poor weak sheeple to fight to preserve or restore what countless soldiers fought and died to protect. God bless our soldiers, they certainly never complained that they were laying their lives on the line for the small or the sick or the weak. At least my dad sure as hell wouldn't be caught talking up selfish post apocalyptic nonsense. He is a proud Viet Nam vet and also stayed and outlasted the drug gangs that tried to take over and destroy our neighborhood. No going off and hiding from the problem and destruction for him (or for me--I've stood down a few thugs, myself). But now he's old and tired, taking care of my now crippled mom. He has a gun but probably not the ability to use it well anymore. But to hell with him, right? Every man for himself. Nobody owes my dad anything for his sacrifices.

Plus, I would really miss having a reliable supply of toilet paper. So count me out of any Apocalypse Parties. I'll do everything I can to at least preserve what we have, and better yet, fix it back up. I don't yet know how, but I'll do my best to learn.

This is a very dangerous situation and question...

We would not want total collapse - society would degenerate dreadfully, and the deaths and violence that would result would be unthinkable. Some groups would help each other, others would plunder... mercylessly

I suspect many people think they are prepared , or think they could survive, but it would be far worse than one could imagine - you will hate this, martial law would be the only immediate option to start to re-construct society if collapse happened

The VERY REAL DANGER is that the desire for change, makes people want to start to create change, even going as far as drastic actions such as provoking deliberate collapse or war(s) without realising what it would mean. be very careful what you wish for...

Change is desperately needed - we are on a terrible path, and everyday working people are the ones being screwed, (savings stripped, money devalued, taxes and cost of living about to accelerate up out of control) - We can soon expect post WWII level of depression, standard of living and difficulties - out of it we need a different world behaviour -

We must not let ourselves be controlled by the money lenders and power mongers who are only interested in greed and control (this is what has happened) - We need to work for change - but wanting and provoking collapse will just make it worse.

You want the current system to collapse? Are you out of your minds?

OK first off, the current system that you so eagerly hate was created by you?
Oh no it wasn't was it. So who created it? You think the mess we are in is going to change (for the better) if the entire system goes to the crapper?

For starters this system you so hate, was created for the very purpose you now see. The entire system was, and is designed for this very purpose. To stupidly imagine if this system collapses, a magical, wonderful system will arise to take its place, of birds and honey and lovely little pixies all singing Cumbia my lord ....

You hate the system? then they've succeeded. Sorry to break the bad news, but they've been busy as bees for this very purpose.
In the good old days they would have NEVER gotten away with what they have planned for you and I. Why? because as insulting as this will sound, people where a LOT smarter back then, and understood what freedom really was.
Today most people are brainwashed. They've been duped by vanity in all its shapes and forms to the mess we now face.

And most utterly shocking is reading these responses of "bring it on" - "I hope the system crashes" OMG! I shake my head in disbelief.

If you think this system is bad, wait till you see what they have lined up for you!

You will be wishing, praying and crying for the old system. If you think the corruption in this system is bad, you wait and see. This whole mess is a fabrication, designed to make you hate the corruption, the lies, the entire mess in the hope for something better. And that something better is on its way pretty soon too.

Like all the lies, it will be painted white, and clean. It will be sold as the best thing for you and I. It'll solve all our problems, on the surface it will be a "God" send - in more ways than one ....

Humanity will lap it up and ask for seconds. Duped into finally accepting the deception. Ignorant, self obsessed and blinded. Eagerly looking at their masters for guidance and answers. Forgoing their freedom for relief. All preplanned, all designed, and cunningly crafted.

Only when the collective say "bring it on" will they succeed.

Originally posted by alien
Nope...I wouldn't be keen for the World to descend into a chaotic cess-pool...though some people would argue it already is.

If the world is so bad, if people are wishing 'a change to happen'...then get off your butt and go change it. Don't sit there feeling angry, or dispondant, or apathetic, or getting all doom-n-gloom and bemoaning what the world has become....do something about it...

I don't need to do anything about it. Change for the better is coming -- with or without my help. It's only a matter of time.

Really??...say hello to someone as you walk down the street, smile at someone, go mow your neighbours lawn or offer to wash the old lady next doors car or something...

...change doesn't have to be a whole 'rush out there and turn EVERYTHING back'...change can just as easily be one smile, one glance, one thank you...

Cute, but that depends on what you call change -- what you define as "freedom".

And I don't know about the others, but I'm quite confident in my abilities to realistically make it through such a scenario. I live in arguably the most safest place in the world. In the last 8 years I've taught myself to become somewhat of an expert in living off the land. I don't even need to stock food/seeds. I know the "bush tucker" -- where to find it/how to prepare it.

Not only am I physically and mentally prepared for it, I'm looking forward to that life style. I'd love to live in a world where there is no dependence on money, cars, electricity etc.

And that's not to say I'd be content with just living 'back to the basics'. I'm also a very progressive person. I dream of the days where we have the technology to travel to distant stars and explore the universe. My problem is I believe we need to start from scratch in order to finally make this dream a reality. We just need the right mindset going forward to make it work -- a mindset in which we've learned from our mistakes.

I've lost all hope in the collective mindset of today. Another chance is all I want to see.

[edit on 10/3/09 by Navieko]

Originally posted by SheepleFlavored
Hell no! That's my answer. My mother survived the "Reset" of her country that you all seem so keen on. I grew up hearing the horror stories and feel almost like I lived it myself. In fact, I had to be put on medication for awhile just to stop the endlesss looping replay of the images rattling through my head torturing my waking moments and my dreams. That is just from HEARING about it second hand. My mother herself has always been a haunted shell of the woman she could have been. She is incredibly intelligent but horribly uneducated which is a tragedy to witness. She is lucky to have survived and yet extremely unlucky in many ways.

The starvation, the deprivation, the depravity--the utter horror. You people have no idea, do you? The elderly, the women and the children stand no real chance. The stronger the men, the more despicable they seem to become as a result of being twisted by the horror around them. Even if they somehow survive physically they are shells of human beings forever. If you want a reset so desperately, haul your asses off to Mexico or the Sudan and help rebuild those people over there. Live off those lands, put your superior strength and abilities to the test and since they already have the chaos you crave, go ahead relocate and get it over with.

My street is filled with sweet innocent little kids and nice older retired couples who do everything to make holidays meaningful for all of us younger harried parents. They wouldn't stand a chance if the country as we know it collapses. We have no natural resources near us. None of us has had the time to be educated for anything beyond surviving in our office jobs. I guess that makes us expendable to a lot of ATS'ers. Fine, so be it.

Sign me officially disgusted and massively disappointed. I guess I'll need to look to some other resource for us poor weak sheeple to fight to preserve or restore what countless soldiers fought and died to protect. God bless our soldiers, they certainly never complained that they were laying their lives on the line for the small or the sick or the weak. At least my dad sure as hell wouldn't be caught talking up selfish post apocalyptic nonsense. He is a proud Viet Nam vet and also stayed and outlasted the drug gangs that tried to take over and destroy our neighborhood. No going off and hiding from the problem and destruction for him (or for me--I've stood down a few thugs, myself). But now he's old and tired, taking care of my now crippled mom. He has a gun but probably not the ability to use it well anymore. But to hell with him, right? Every man for himself. Nobody owes my dad anything for his sacrifices.

Plus, I would really miss having a reliable supply of toilet paper. So count me out of any Apocalypse Parties. I'll do everything I can to at least preserve what we have, and better yet, fix it back up. I don't yet know how, but I'll do my best to learn.

Great post.

Before the world can figure out what it wants and what is best, we have to first discover what it is we don't want. I think we are fast approaching that point but it may take some time to figure out exactly what we do want, if ever. It's up to us though and we can't blame God for our mistakes, we made them, we have to live with them and only we can work out how to put them right. Once we accept that we're all living on the same planet and responsible for each other perhaps we might make some progress. No, I don't want chaos but I feel it is inevitable but that it will, ultimatley, encourage us all to do some hard soul searching.

Originally posted by jatsc

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
Hell no it's not something I look forward too - as allot of people are going to die - mostly children and 99% of people over 70. I'll deal with it when it comes, but it's not what I want.

I'm 74" and 285lbs and even though I'm over 40 years old I'm still bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than 95% of the population roaming the earth. Unless I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time when a meteor hits or something or I blow a heart valve and can't find a heart surgeon I am going to survive - unless of course I'm 70 when it hits. As always I will stand up and help the weak, but I'll have to cut stupid people loose to survive.

What how could you survive when your 74 and you said 99% of the people over 70 will die then you said your going to survive unless of course I'm over 70 when it hits but your over 70 ? That makes no sense.

Uhh, they're referring to their height.. oO



I have thought about this sort of thing for years. many years. It is inevitable. Every civilisation has grown to breaking point and then reset, fractured or simply vanished.

Would/Do I want it? yes. And Im not a kid, Im well into middle age. Would I change my mind if it got too close to me? Nope. I would expect it to.

Would I shed a tear for the millions who perished? Nope. Nor do many of you here today shed a tear for the millions who have perished in other far away lands, in recent times. You may hear about it, and raise your eyebrow at it, but you carry on with the problems of your own existence being all you have time for.

I don't believe it will happen any time soon. Not 2012, not in the next 10 years... most likely not in our life time.

Humans have the knack of destroying everything they touch, but they also have the knack to stick bandaids on things just long enough to stave off breaking point an impossible amount of time.

But if it does happen in our life time, then I shall consider you all with equality and not let my tyranny treat you unjustly.. I shall be a good King.

Originally posted by Navieko
I don't need to do anything about it. Change for the better is coming -- with or without my help. It's only a matter of time.

Well...I guess if you don't have an active hand in any change - no matter how small - aren't you then just a passenger, rather than participant in the process of change?

Is therefore the resultant change just something left to others mixed in with a bit of chance...in which case I do hope any resultant *change* is one of an agreeable nature to you.

At least by becoming actively involved you increase - again no matter how minute that may be - chances that any resultant change is change you'd want or at least be happier with.

Cute, but that depends on what you call change -- what you define as "freedom".

I guess one of the most fitting people to make a call on what *change* is is the one upon whom any *change* was affected.

For instance - pop next door and ask my elderly widow neighbour what *change* they felt having me in their backyard yesterday afternoon mowing their lawns, pruning their trees and weeding their garden - so that she doesn't have to spend her limited savings/income on getting in a Gardener any more...instead she can utilise that money saved for paying for essentials or even enjoying her life a little more.

I know how she experienced that *change* as I found a freshly baked Banana Cake and 'Thank You' note on my back-door step when I got home from work this evening.

And I don't know about the others, but I'm quite confident in my abilities to realistically make it through such a scenario. I live in arguably the most safest place in the world. In the last 8 years I've taught myself to become somewhat of an expert in living off the land. I don't even need to stock food/seeds. I know the "bush tucker" -- where to find it/how to prepare it.

Same here.
I live in a safe country too - New Zealand.
I was brought up in the bush from a very young age...taught how to find/hunt/prep/preserve food. Shown and taught about what natural medicenes there are in the bush, where to find them and how to prepare/preserve them, what to use them for etc.
I was taught bushcraft, tracking, how to find/make shelter and live 'in bush'.
Certainly the bush is essentially a large supermarket with pretty much all you require there ready to be gathered - its just not neatly packaged and shrink-wrapped.

I'm highly confident of my abilities to survive in the bush...having spent long lengths of time in bush - sometimes months at an end - with little more than my rifle, knife and a small pack with a few essentials for food prep/gathering/preparing and shelter construction.

To me the bush is every bit *home* as the tinned roof and stucco walls I live in right now.

The reality for me is that if the world went to heck in a handbasket tomorrow I could snatch up my rifle, knife, pack and just vanish off the radar into the bush... and survive fine enough.

However: The other reality for me is that I am a husband...I am also soon to be a Father. I am a son, a brother, a friend.
My wife isn't anywhere near as bush-savy as me...she can barely stand 'camping' if there isn't a flushing toilet!
My parents are elderly, my siblings are scattered around the country and one over in Australia..

I love them. They are part of me, my life.

So...yes...I could survive...but my question to myself is "would I want to?"
If any ensuring chaos meant that I was unable to see, to talk to, to hold my loved ones again...then I'm sorry, call it a point of weakness or whatever...but I simply wouldn't wish to survive.

What a lonely existance that would be to me. There is far more to *life* than just living.

My problem is I believe we need to start from scratch in order to finally make this dream a reality. We just need the right mindset going forward to make it work -- a mindset in which we've learned from our mistakes.

Personally I think we should perhaps try to clean up our mistakes rather than just erase them and start again.
I dunno...maybe its about responsibility. For whatever reason we may find ourselves in a mess...but maybe its OUR mess...and like any mess it gets cleaned up by putting away one toy at a time.
The mess may have been handed down, we may well have had nothing to do with it...but hey, I had nothing to do with the beer bottle someone tossed in the gutter next to my house yet still picked it up.

She ain't a perfect world...but ya never know, with a spit and polish she might just buff up nicely.

I've lost all hope in the collective mindset of today. Another chance is all I want to see.

You haven't lost hope in yourself have you?
You are every bit an integral part in any collective mindset as I am, or the next person.

I do hear what you saying about wanting another chance. I guess for me its not so much about whatever extra chance we ourselves get...but perhaps more about the chances we give others.

Don't think we can ever underestimate a compassionate heart coupled with a focussed mind.


Peace.

Here's a theory.

If economic system does collapse, it causes extreme povetry for tens of millions of people in USA.

Those tens of millions of people will want food from somewhere, somehow.

To get that food they do crimes so that they don't starve to death.

Goverment is completely unable to control such a huge mass of people so that there would be peaceful and not that much crimes.

Socialist system is forced into place to prevent all crime that will follow from collapse of econommic system.

I just wonder how many would want that in there. I live in Finland, we have it and it works great. But.. I respect people of USA who want to have a different system, and I don't really understand why you would want to have a socialist system in place, as your culture is so totally different from ours.

I know this theory from experience and observation. It has happened in almost every single country that has lost a war and then gained independence anyway. USA propably won't be an exception. History repeats itself.

Originally posted by rawsom
Here's a theory.

If economic system does collapse, it causes extreme povetry for tens of millions of people in USA.

Those tens of millions of people will want food from somewhere, somehow.

To get that food they do crimes so that they don't starve to death.

Goverment is completely unable to control such a huge mass of people so that there would be peaceful and not that much crimes.

Socialist system is forced into place to prevent all crime that will follow from collapse of econommic system.

I just wonder how many would want that in there. I live in Finland, we have it and it works great. But.. I respect people of USA who want to have a different system, and I don't really understand why you would want to have a socialist system in place, as your culture is so totally different from ours.

I know this theory from experience and observation. It has happened in almost every single country that has lost a war and then gained independence anyway. USA propably won't be an exception. History repeats itself.

People are just throwing a hissy fit... like spoilt children.

They do not even understand socialism - but they are inviting fascism

Yes, watching and waiting. Mind you, I don't want to see death and destruction, but I think now the only way to change how things are is to start from scratch. I look at it sort of like a controlled burn forest fire. You have to get rid of everything to make room and fertilize for all the new growth.