Are you HOPING for a complete collapse and chaos to happen?

Originally posted by Navieko
reply to post by johnny2127

 

The way I see it, it's all about achieving a collective mindset. In order to achieve this, we all have to be on the same level. The pyramid must come crashing down and everyone must see it. Everyone must be effected by it. It has to be big and scary enough, that the reality of what we've created confronts all. We all have to suffer the effects of what we've created in order to see what must be done. The mistakes, the silliness... the foolishness of our ways -- must all be revealed.

Why do we have to have to experience all those things? Go a little deeper please.

Are you HOPING for a complete collapse and chaos to happen?

Absolutely not.
HOWEVER, I think that the PTB ARE. It would be an excuse to declare Martial Law, and execute a complete elimination of all constitutional rights, and civil liberties. Kiss an uncensored Internet goodbye, when that happens.

As I read through more of these rely, I have to say I'm a little put off by these selfish responses that read something like "I don't want a reset of society, I will probably die." Goodness, what if every soldier sent off to war was like that? "I don't want to fight Hitler, I will probably die."

So .. your selfish personal desires and/or wants/needs should be taken into consideration before deciding if all the slaves should be set free? Isn't that a little selfish? Our descendants should bear our debt, accept the beasts RFID, get use to GM foods, bow down to their overlords, and continue to slave away in the PTBs mega-corporations, just so you frightened selfish ones living on the edge of death already can get your meds, or enjoy your big screen teevee, have your cappuccinos, and enjoy your accumulated piles of worthless fiat money? That sounds LIKE the PTB!

Humans make me sick. Sure, nobody wants to go to war and/or die .. but dang it, sometimes you have to put aside your personal wants, needs, and desires for a greater good and better future.

Shameful, just shameful. Yeah, I wouldn't want to die as a result of a society reset either, but I can minimize that chance by being prepared, and fully committing myself to fighting for a better tomorrow.

And those so worried about loosing all their STUFF .. well, UPCHUCK! THAT sounds like PTB talk too. I don't care about STUFF. I don't care about fiat money either. What I value the most is FREEDOM, and I'll pay any price for that ~ for myself, for my own adult children, for my grandchildren, and for those yet to be born into this world. And, if that price includes my life, well, I was once a soldier in the army, fully prepared to give my life for freedom, and I still have enough moral character and fiber left to be willing to do the same today, the best I can.

I guess the cowards and selfish people and those that fail to prepare won't fair well when the SHTF. Well, sorry, but I wouldn't have called off the civil war, or WW1, or WW2, just because someone was worried that their little personal life might be turned upside down for a while, or worse. If the world were full of more cowards, we'd all be white today and speaking German.

And, those that state they wouldn't want to fight for their freedom because they think that would result in master reeling in their leash and kicking them in the butt even more really sound like selfish cowards too. When the PTB comes to kick our butt, you better fight back against them, or you'll be branded and labeled as a traitor against humanity, and dealt with as such.

In any case, it's heart warming to see that there are more brave stand-up folks these days now than selfish cowards. I think we can kick masters butt and win, but again, everyone is gonna need to fight back against tyranny and rule over our lives. Those that don't will just be branded as "useless flesh that's just in the way" and will be dealt with as such. Yeah, it's unfortunate, but hey, we MUST stop this new kind of Hitler/PTB that is taking over the world and our lives, for our sake, and our descendants sake. (note: the very elderly and physically/mentally crippled are forgiven and excused, as they have a valid excuse and reason for not caring about the rest of us)

reply to post by Divinorumus

In any case, it's heart warming to see that there are more brave stand-up folks these days now than selfish cowards. I think we can kick masters butt and win, but again, everyone is gonna need to fight back against tyranny and rule over our lives.

Please, stop the arm-chair warrior routine. If you had ever been in a war, which obviously you haven't, you would never make remarks such as that. War is not fun, it is not "brave, stand-up", when it is waged, people die, and those that die are not the ones that started it.

It is NOT heartwarming to see so many people that are willing to "whatever", without any plan, any organization, any goals, and any solution.
In my book, and on ATS, we call that IGNORANCE, because taking actions when you have no plan and no solution is just that- Ignorant.

As to "kicking masters butt", people had that chance in the election, and look what they chose.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
As to "kicking masters butt", people had that chance in the election, and look what they chose.

That's pretty funny. On what cloud do you live? I suppose if slaves were allowed to vote for who got to be their master long ago, having to choose between Mr. PTB or Mr. Banker, then THAT could have avoided the civil war too? Funny, but I don't think so! It's not the leaders that we have to choose among that I'm concerned about .. it's that entire organization that the winner becomes president of that needs to be dismantled.

Don't misunderstand me, I despise war, I hate it, I wish humons never warred, and I wish we could vote for freedom. But, so long as there are those that have desires to rule over OUR lives, and force their agendas upon us all, there will always be WAR!

I guess some people make good obedient slaves, and others not. I'm one of the NOTs!

reply to post by _damon

If it is not what you are, well i will gladly hear the whole story if you accept to tell it. But PLEASE dont tell me this power is linked to karma and other crap. Plus dont tell me it is a power of love or something stupid like this. I really hope you will be original, im so sick to hear the same # from hopeless people that are believing nonsense...

Ya, I hear you! No, I'm not into twigs and berries, crystals, nor fairy dust.

No, I'm a realist, no new age fluff and fold.

But the thought of the world collapsing with each on his own, is not my belief, nor is it palatable. For I do think we are at a very big transitional point.

I choose to not view it as horrific as many do, but as a natural evolution that NEEDS to take place.

reply to post by Divinorumus

That's pretty funny. On what cloud do you live? I suppose if slaves were allowed to vote for who got to be their master long ago, having to choose between Mr. PTB or Mr. Banker, then THAT could have avoided the civil war too? Funny, but I don't think so! It's not the leaders that we have to choose among that I'm concerned about .. it's that entire organization that the winner becomes president of that needs to be dismantled.

Actually, about half of the American eligible voters never vote in elections. It isn't just the President that we vote for. It is every member of Congress. The last time I checked, corporations don't vote- they DO, however, employ lobbyists to pay Congressional members to vote "their way". Stop voting for the crooks that accept lobbyist funds and favors, and the nation would change.
People talked like you, before the election, saying that they would vote the "bums" out, that voted for the Bailout Bill. You know how many of those that voted for the Bailout were defeated? 7, yes SEVEN, out of the entire group that voted for the Bailout were defeated.
American voters- big talk- no action.
If slaves had been allowed to vote, they wouldn't be slaves, now would they?

Please stop spewing nonsense.

[edit on 11-3-2009 by ProfEmeritus]

Originally posted by johnny2127
I still want to hear an explanation why there needs to be anarchy, chaos and suffering.

People can't just say "everything has to collapse so we can rebuild" or "thats how it works, out of chaos comes order'. Or any other number of things I have read here.

I am open minded, I just would like to hear why that is necessary.

No system can thrive in natural perpetuity, because there is always someone who will come into power and abandon the original mission. Systems survive artificially through the induction of controlled death/rebirth cycles.

Moore's Law was never as much a fact of electrical engineering as it was a goal for the survival of the digital processor beyond its infancy.

SO, let us examine these replies. Overwhelming in support of a collapse of the existing system; it is too bad that many people will die. And out of this collapse, the existing power structure will be gone and the meek will inherit the earth. The result will be a society based on peace, love and understanding where the survivors will work together in a world that is not based on money or greed.

Right.

For that to happen, human nature will have to drastically change. Throughout history, the one constant has been the tendency of one group of humans to take advantage of a weaker set of humans. We are predators who have become very good at preying on our own. The "meek" who rise to new positions of power will be determined to keep those who are more meek under control. And the cycle begins anew.

I shudder to imagine a world where the rule of law is gone and the ones in power do not even know how to use spell-check and are too lazy to proof-read their messages before hitting "submit".

Many here have repeated the worn-out phrase "Out of chaos comes order". Where do you think the "chaos" comes from? (hint: IGNORANCE)

Originally posted by vBreezo
SO, let us examine these replies. Overwhelming in support of a collapse of the existing system; it is too bad that many people will die. And out of this collapse, the existing power structure will be gone and the meek will inherit the earth. The result will be a society based on peace, love and understanding where the survivors will work together in a world that is not based on money or greed.

Right.

For that to happen, human nature will have to drastically change. Throughout history, the one constant has been the tendency of one group of humans to take advantage of a weaker set of humans. We are predators who have become very good at preying on our own. The "meek" who rise to new positions of power will be determined to keep those who are more meek under control. And the cycle begins anew.

i remember a thought experiment many years ago. someone asked what if all the bullies were removed from society? the obvious answer: the strongest of those who were bullied will become the new bullies!

this wishful thinking of a beautiful new world out of the total collapse is nothing but the wet dreams of brainwashed/immature individuals who have read too many of those "left behind" books.

attempts to make such "wonderful"societies work resulted in the carnage of communism around the world. it's human nature to abuse the system and to find a position of power. we can't escape our genes...

Originally posted by vBreezo
SO, let us examine these replies. Overwhelming in support of a collapse of the existing system; it is too bad that many people will die. And out of this collapse, the existing power structure will be gone and the meek will inherit the earth. The result will be a society based on peace, love and understanding where the survivors will work together in a world that is not based on money or greed.

Right.

For that to happen, human nature will have to drastically change. Throughout history, the one constant has been the tendency of one group of humans to take advantage of a weaker set of humans. We are predators who have become very good at preying on our own. The "meek" who rise to new positions of power will be determined to keep those who are more meek under control. And the cycle begins anew.

I shudder to imagine a world where the rule of law is gone and the ones in power do not even know how to use spell-check and are too lazy to proof-read their messages before hitting "submit".

Many here have repeated the worn-out phrase "Out of chaos comes order". Where do you think the "chaos" comes from? (hint: IGNORANCE)

Realistically, until we as humans stop treating everything as a pissing match and learn to accept that everything doesn't have to be bigger, better, shinier, newer, tastier, flashier and all that jazz, things will really never change.

I'm not a big proponent of organized religion, but if we all tried to live up to Big Mo's Ten No-Nos, the world would definitely be a better place.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by GoalPoster]

Originally posted by _damon

Originally posted by redhorse

Originally posted by spec2
You People Are Crazy.


[edit on 11-3-2009 by spec2]

Creating a chaotic circumstance only means that the ruthless predators are in their element. Chaotic times bring war lords and mini-despots; Who will use most of you whiny-but-I-despise-the-world-so-it-and-everyone-else-in-it-should-die types for the ignorant, easily manipulated Tools that you are. Most of the rest of you will simply die. And for the privileged few who will rise to the top and become the brutal War Lord or mini-despot, well I guess congratulations and lucky you.

What do you suggest wise one? Is there anything that is not useless we could do instead wishing for chaos? Pray god?

What does god have to do with the price of eggs? I'm no athiest but I'm a firm believer in '... you have to keep pushing while you are praying.' There is no god that is going to hand us a solution regardless of how much we pray, genuflect, or sacrifice animals/children/styrofoam.

As an aside; I'm wondering if your not making some interesting assumptions about me though...

I certainly don't have all the answers but there are things I think that could be done to help (just help, mind you; steer this out of the ditch). I also think that almost any 'solution'(s) I present here are going to be shot down as insufficiently draconian/bloody, or lacking in true understanding of human beings, or just stupid, or (some of it) communist, or what have you, by the vocal half howling for blood. Mostly because we will have a difference of opinion about the basic underpinnings of human nature.

However, one truth about human nature that I will expound upon here, is that the marginalized will predatorially seize an opportunity to become the Haves instead of the Have Nots, when it presents itself.

One can (and most of the Hoping-for-armageddon-crowd will) justify the violence inherent in that with placations like 'freedom fighters', and even 'justice'. Possibly the more intellectually prone among you may even site something like 'redistribution of wealth'.

But, in the end all of that is just one group of monkeys overthrowing another group of monkeys while they scuffle over dwindling resources.

Brutal, base, violent, nasty, animals, railing against the 'injustice' of brutal, base, violent, nasty, animals. Nothing more. (Too, too funny really.) The only difference between us and say... a wolf, or baboon, is that we have the ability (and apparent need) to justify the manifestations of these instincts with a bunch of inspiring words, and fluff, and lies.

Besides, it's more fun to indulge the instincts and think about the coming opportunity to shoot ones neighbor (whom you didn't really like anyway... He probably sells meth... Or, molests children... or eats kittens... or something), then it is to stop to think, and look for actual solutions.

Funny thing is, many of the ones demanding the End of Things, are of precisely the same stripe as those who have created this oligarchy we have now that is causing all of the trouble.

The only difference there is that by chance circumstance, some minor character flaw, or just a flat inability to adapt to the current system, they are currently on the bottom instead of the top. Which means that given the opportunity to be The Big Man they will almost certainly be more brutal than what we have now. Because of where they came from, because they are bullies, and because their violence will create a circumstance that will demand it in order to stay in power or just flat survive.

On another note, somebody mentioned the fall of Rome. It took Europe centuries to recover from that. Not years. Not decades. Centuries. And life was short, nasty, and brutal for most people during that time. Just a thought.

reply to post by johnny2127


I may not hoping for or looking for total collapse but any fool can see the writing on the wall . I said 20 years ago the NYSE could not continue to raise without something bad coming of it it took awhile but here it is where it stops noooooobody knows but stock up on things that you need for a long overdue free for all

reply to post by johnny2127


First off, great thread with some good feedback from all sides. I also truly love the fact that we can discuss these things without the fear of retribution. We can say what we really think, and I like that about 'the way things are.'

I guess the reason people think a total collapse/chaos is needed is because it is what has brought major change in the past. Perhaps we have "evolved" enough that we don't have to do that anymore. Maybe it's only our political/social systems that have evolved.

I'm not a christian, but I think the parable about building your house on the sand is a good one. My view is that we built a small house on a small rock, and in order to get our house bigger and more comfortable we've just added sand around it.

Individuals seem to have more sense than the mob mentality does, but which one is the true human being?

I think that voting is low because government has become such a social club, and requires so much money to have a chance at success, that corruption has become the norm.

Apologies for the chaos of my post.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by dragonking76]

reply to post by dragonking76


Good post, I liked the parable.

You are right though, I hope we have evolved enough where complete chaos and anarchy are not needed for the desired change.

Bring on the end! Sick of what is happening at the moment!

I'm prepared... to an extent. I live in a sub urban environment. I know where there is a clean water supply where it is all quiet. I know where i can build a shelter given the right tools and equipment... what i dont know is how i'm going to feed myself, but when push comes to shove, i may just find out how good i really m.

If this happens and it will be a challenge i will be looking forward to, but do i think i will survive... no. My friends will be in places too risky to go to. My family is spread out all across the country, most of my neighbours are old and wiery and something like this could kill half of my street within the first week.

The strongest will survive. That would be determined by who is with you, what your up against, what you have and how you can get what you need to survive and how you work together. Well organised, well drilled and knowing when to quit is gonna be a massive key to success. Also 8 miles west and 4 miles east along one main road that runs through our town there are communities of Asians. You can bet your house that they will put personal differences aside, believe in their god and work together. That's a threat in which i dont think many people who survive the situation in which were living in will even think about and when do they wouldn't even understand the extent of that problem. I will reckon that within a year, if order does not come about, they will rule the county (state for U.S). A bit like "The Postman" watch that movie, definately puts things into perspective.

Trust me... i'd like it to happen, it's the only way, but maybe this is the lesser of the two evils, perticularly right now!

I desire nothing more then world peace. And there is no possible way to achieve world peace without creating chaos to begin with. "You cant make an omelet without cracking a few eggs." -Fight Club

I'm getting prepared, and yes, i AM hoping for EVERYTHING to collapse and turn to chaos. "the only way to fix it is to flush it all away" -TOOL

Not the kind of chaos as far as people dying from torture and such. The chaos where there is no turning back, and no surrender before change. We have to fight back, we have to deliver what the man deserves. Without total collapse and chaos, we will achieve nothing, and in return, will gain even more suffrage. They're watching us and we do nothing. We NEED chaos. In a few years, even months, human kind will fail without chaos.

yes i think we do need this downturn as here in a australia we are technically not in recession yet. Downturns clean out less efficient suppliers from the economy and leave only the best.

Originally posted by Hm?heather
The chaos where there is no turning back, and no surrender before change.

I was rather hoping for the kind of chaos where the creeps and hoodlums and thieves would reveal themselves by causing chaos, thus giving us a valid excuse for ridding the world of these kinds of humons. When some creep thinks their solution to finding food is to kick down someone else's doors to take their food .. POOF! One less thief to deal with on Earth. When all those kinds of people are gone, maybe then we'll have peace. Catch some thief in your garden stealing your tomatoes .. POOF! Catch some thief sneaking into your home .. POOF! Think of chaos as an opportunity to mop up the creeps around the planet that would kill you for your stuff.

That's a good one. I suppose the conspiracy theorist in me wants that but at the other end of the spectrum, I know that all that is irrelevant. In the whole blink of an eye, my life will have passed, so therefore, I should not wast my time thinking such negative thoughts. Shoot I shouldnt wast my time thinking positive thoughts either. Just existing is enough. Sort of the Budhist zen thing I guess.