It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Can the Value of Pi be Changing?

page: 2
3
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:14 PM
link   
I already went into the degree of precision to which Pi is known, you play with words when you suggest it is not known to true precision. You mean absolute precision.

It is not known to absolute precision, but it is as I have said known to a greater degree of precision than perhaps any other known thing.

You could say that 1+1 is 2 that is fine if you are talking about abstracts.

What if the 1's were pounds of flour? How accruately were the sacks measured?

In the instance of Pi, the sack was measured to what may be the most precise fraction known to man.

Truth does not require the absolute, and not everything which people consider absolute is true.




posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:17 PM
link   
reply to post by Blaine91555
 

An unanswerable question either has no answer or one that is always changing.
Like I stated before. It's best guess.
We as humans do not have the answer yet.
It is changing if an answer can never be found, simply because the answer continues to be calculated. It is not changing only due to the assumption that there is in fact a way to find an answer.
Constant is our best settled on guess. Some 250 million decimal places I think I just read in this thread. Good luck. Let me know when you have the answer.
It is the very nature of the universe to change. This is in itself both the answer and a new question.

[edit on 9/3/2009 by reticledc]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:18 PM
link   
reply to post by Cyberbian
 





Furthermore due to nature of Pi being a fraction calculable to an extremely rare degree of prescision we know to what I believe to be a unquely accurate degree of precsion the value of Pi.

Whoa!
Pi is an irrational, transcendental number, and as such CANNOT be expressed as a fraction of any two integers(thus irrational), and CANNOT be expressed as a finite number of algebraic expressions of any kind. At last count, Pi has been calculated to over ONE TRILLION decimal places, but anything that you can write as a value, will only be an APPROXIMATION, due to the very definition of a transcendental number.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:19 PM
link   
reply to post by reticledc
 


Thanks for the tip reticledc. I used to love reading physics books but I haven't done so in a while but I think it's time to start at it again.

Obsidience



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:21 PM
link   
reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


Thank you for the corroboration.
Unanswerable at this point.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Cyberbian
 


That would have to imply that our method of measurement was accurate to begin with.

Imagine 1 trillion = 1
1 fraction of an indeterminate number is not accurate.
1 "whole number" of 1.0 × 10 to the 42nd is not accurate.
1.0 × 10 to the 42nd = 100 trillion x 100 trillion x 100 trillion

It's like trying to measure the earth with the thickness of human hair.
Fractions to that degree, if of by any fraction of an amount, form distortion over time and distance. Ditto on the subatomic.
It is best guess. It is just as much a matter of conjecture as a play with words.

[edit on 9/3/2009 by reticledc]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:29 PM
link   
Great thread. I find it interesting that a number like Pi can never be known in its entirety; that is is only an approximation.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:29 PM
link   
reply to post by reticledc
 


How exactly could Pi change? Remember there is only one formula to reach Pi.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:31 PM
link   
reply to post by rizla
 


Not an approximation. It is always the same. The only thing that changes is the degree to which it is calculated before you stop the calculation. Pi never changes.

[edit on 3/9/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:33 PM
link   
reply to post by reticledc
 


There is no guessing involved. You are trying to introduce abstracts. 1+1=2 will always be true. 1 apple + 1 orange=1 apple + 1 orange, not 2.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:34 PM
link   
reply to post by Blaine91555
 


If phi is always being calculated, it is always changing. It will continue to be added to until we stop adding to it and settle on a value. Is not addition, change?
this is as much a philosophical argument as it is a scientific one.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by Cyberbian
It is not known to absolute precision, but it is as I have said known to a greater degree of precision than perhaps any other known thing.


I agree with your statement that we know and understand Pi with great precision. I do not debate that. It is a constant for our frame of reference. I guess what I'm trying to say is that "our frame of reference" won't mean a whole lot when we start exploring the cosmos. The universe is not constant. Its malleable. It morphs and changes. And so with it the rules.

Obsidience



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:35 PM
link   
reply to post by Blaine91555
 


You still have 2 fruit.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:36 PM
link   
reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


The topic is can the value of Pi change and it can not. When calculated to the same decimal point it will always be the same.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:38 PM
link   
reply to post by reticledc
 


You know what I meant. No two items exist in nature that are exactly the same
This is getting to be quite silly. Nice break from the doom and gloom however.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:42 PM
link   
Okay, yes, Pi is a mathematical constant; I think the issue here is the applicability of Pi, in relating numbers and math to our observations of the physical universe.

In many ways, it's a remarkable coincidence that Pi is useful at all - it implies that our physical universe is Euclidean in nature, with three dimensions, perpendicular to each other.

But that's not really correct, apparently, from other observations we have made about the physical universe. It turns out that space-time can warp, and the dimensions of width, height, and depth, are not always perpendicular to each other.

When that's the case, a circle existing in that space does not have a circumference to diameter ratio equal to Pi. It's slightly different.

Imagine a circle that's drawn on the surface of a sphere. The diameter you measure of that circle, on the surface of the sphere, is a curved arc - and the ratio you get is not Pi. That curved arc, from the point of view of someone on the surface of the sphere, looks like a 'straight line'.

That's similar to how our space-time, in 3d, can be warped into a 4th dimension, just like a 2d surface can be warped onto the 3rd dimension of a sphere.

The amazing thing is that we, as humans, exist on such a scale, and in such a narrow band of consistent physical properties, that the universe seem to act 99.999% Euclidean. We need to get close to black holes, accelerate to a significant fraction of light-speed, or other extreme changes in order for the warped nature of space-time to be apparent.

3.14, or 22/7, is a good enough approximation for day-to-day use.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:42 PM
link   
reply to post by obsidience
 


Precisely my point. At subatomic levels the universe becomes abstract.
In the world we know every day, if you have 1 apple and 1 orange, you have one of each, as well as 2 fruit. Subatomically if you had 1 apple and 1 orange, both could exist simultaneously in a number of ways.
Your 1 orange can be in more than one place at one time. Therefore there are 2 oranges now and 1 apple, now there are 3 fruits.
It has been proven that 1 electron can occupy 2 different spaces simultaneously.
Phasing in and out of existence.
Contrary to your statement.

Back to the original topic. Phi is still best guess.
It is both a constant and changing, from our perspective. We are all correct.


[edit on 9/3/2009 by reticledc]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:48 PM
link   
Thankyou "obsidience" for the wonderful topic. Quite an interestind direction you have brought us to.



i]reply to post by Ian McLean
 


Thank you.

Quite astute observation.



reply to post by Blaine91555
 

Doom and gloom does get boring doesn't it.
I always love this kind of thing much better.
It stretches the gray matter quite effectively.
Don't you think?


[edit on 9/3/2009 by reticledc]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:48 PM
link   
reply to post by Ian McLean
 


Ian,

I could NOT have put it more eloquently. I see now why you are a debate champion.

But I still have not heard one "aye". With what you just said coupled with the theory that the number of dimensions in the universe is in phase. Do you think that Pi may be changing? (From any relative point of reference to us)

Thanks,

Obsidience



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:51 PM
link   
reply to post by obsidience
 


Yes and No.

I believe that as long as we continue to calculate it, PHI will change.

Additional thanks to Ian McLean.
RespeK!!!

[edit on 9/3/2009 by reticledc]



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join