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Can the Value of Pi be Changing?

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posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 03:33 AM
Here's a somewhat unique question I pose to all of you science nuts.

I believe I once read from a Hawking book that during the big bang and the extreme energy being released that there were additional dimensions and that these dimensions had collapsed into what we see today.

Lately I have been trying to "understand" scientific concepts such as Pi, magnetism, gravity, dimensions etc.

My current line of thinking is that Pi is a constant defining our universe current dimensional state. If you think about it, the first 3 dimensions are x,y,z. The cleanest plane between a single x and y is a circle. The cleanest plane between x,y,z is a sphere and so on. So if you think about it, Pi is the connection between dimension 1,2 and 3.

If you take this into mind PLUS the Multiverse theory (something that Hawking also discusses) and integrate them:

Is it possible that as our universe expands and cools and dimensions deteriorate. We enter into a new universe in which Pi increases or decreases unbeknownst to us?

3.14 has always seemed like such an arbitrary constant to number to me.... Things like the decimal system being based on 10 due to our 10 fingers make sense but 3.14? What would happen if it were 1? 10? 0?


posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 03:55 AM
No, Pi is not changing...

It is a mathematical constant, not physical

Wikipedia link

Although not a physical constant, π appears routinely in equations describing fundamental principles of the Universe, due in no small part to its relationship to the nature of the circle and, correspondingly, spherical coordinate systems.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 03:57 AM
You find pi by dividing the circumference of a circle by it's diameter.

Pi isn't a created number, it's a mathematical formula based off of measuring a circle. It's like finding the hypotenuse of a triangle, it's not going to change.

5thElement, beat me to it.

[edit on 9-3-2009 by RuneSpider]

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 04:30 AM
Pi can also be defined as having nothing to do with circles or 2d-space.

For example, the following formula:

Pi = 4/1 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 - 4/11 + 4/13 - 4/15 + 4/17 ...

Gives pi to whatever accuracy you want, if you continue adding and subtracting long enough.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 06:09 AM
If Pi changed then it would be detectable.

Pi is measurable, or we would not know its value, not that anyone truly knows the entire value.

Furthermore due to nature of Pi being a fraction calculable to an extremely rare degree of prescision we know to what I believe to be a unquely accurate degree of precsion the value of Pi.

If I am not mistaken it is known beyond 250 million decimal places of accuracy.

That would be a very small amount of change which could be detected, perhaps the smallest amount of change in anything ever measured.

If just the last decimal place of the 250 million changed it would be detectable. The mathematicians would loose their minds over that. Everyone around the world would know about a thing like that.

So you see you could not have possibly picked a worse subject for speculating whether it might have changed!

Mathematicians like to outdo one another in calculating it more accurately.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 11:18 AM
PI might change if it were defined as a measurement within the physical universe, such as the ratio of the circumference of a circle to it's diameter. If the fabric of spacetime were stretching in some way. As a mathematical constant, however, it can not change.

Some once assumed physical constants in the universe such as the velocity of light might well be changing. In fact there is some evidence that the speed of light is slowing down, but that has been viciously suppressed by the physics elite.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 11:39 AM
I'm sorry, but some of you guys are talking way over my head. Explain it to me like I'm Mario Lopez.


posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 11:47 AM
Yes, Pi doesn't change-- I think he means in a more substantial change-- like laws of the universe changing. We take for granted that a circle is a circle-- and the whole arguement could be what looks like a circle could be multiple things in reality but still appear to be circle.

Yes, if you take mathematics for what it is Pi cannot change-- you have to make the lofty assumption that fundamental laws of logic could be altered first.

I would say overall its night likely-- and even it was happening, we would never even know as our numerical calculations would probably not change.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 03:49 PM
I doubt that pi is changing because as 5thelement said it is a mathematic constant and not part of physics. Also I hope its not changing because I am finding it hard enough to understand now without everything changing. However on the physics note it is possible for everything to change. If you introduce a single change to the forces and dimensions that exist in our universe then all our current laws of physics would be wrong and would need rewriting. So it is possible that the dimensions or our universe may change and we just don't know it will happen due to our limited understanding of physics. However the universe will not cool as you put it unless there is a way for energy from our universe to be leeched off into others due to the fact that you cannot create or remove energy or mass only change it. This means that there will permanently be the same amount of energy in the universe unless a way is found for energy to pass into a different universe or to here from another.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 04:02 PM
Who was it who said that the universe is the way it is because that's the way we experience it. Or something similar (correction welcome). So could pi be pi because it's 'our' pi?

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 05:07 PM

Originally posted by mithrawept
Who was it who said that the universe is the way it is because that's the way we experience it. Or something similar (correction welcome). So could pi be pi because it's 'our' pi?

Quite possibly. Maybe we are all mad. If we are all insane how would we know. We could only compare ourselves to other people who are insane. Maybe those we consider insane are actually the sane ones. It is the same vein of thought. If the universe and reality are what we percieve them to be then I doubt we will ever get the truth. If you don't understand just nod and smile and pretend you do before going on with life as normal it is the only way to keep going when you start consider this sort of thing seriously.

(Or I am just mad who knows)

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 05:10 PM
You would need to be in a different universe. Probably one that didn't support life.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 05:29 PM

Pi is the connection between dimension 1,2 and 3.

OP, the connection between dimensions you are looking for is PHI. it is a function which describes a constant, exponentially increasing (decreasing) spiral, across which dimensions interact. it is the underlying structure of the universe. if the ratio of PI were changing, as you suggest in the OP, it would be PHI.

it can be shown via simple measurement that as living tissue dies and becomes hardened (as in bone structure), it naturally forms into ratios representing PHI. this is because the natural movement of life is in the direction of PHI, and as life transforms into death, it calcifies along that same path.

of interest is that this ratio is present in every single living organism on earth with the most interesting exeption of the ginkgo biloba tree.

the artist paul laffoley has written a beatiful essay called "memento mori" on this subject. more about laffoley's art here: miquel: laffoley

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 09:13 PM
Thanks everyone for your posts thus far. So far my tally is:

NAY: 5thElement, RuneSpider, Ian McLean, Cyberbian, SevenThunders
On the bench: ragman, mithrawept, Cauch1, Aeons

So 5 nays and 4 maybes. Still no takers.

Here's some additional reasoning behind my madness.

RuneSpider, Ian: you state that pi is the value created by dividing the circumference of a circle by it's diameter. Now that's excellent two dimensional thinking. Let's kick it up a notch and go 3 dimensional. The volume of a sphere equal pi * d^4 / 6. Lets kick it up a notch and go 4 dimensional.

I had you going! I'm not that smart but I bet there is an equation for that too. My point is that pi seems to be a value that has intrinsic to our concept of dimensions and reality and that Hawking and other scientist have theorized that dimensions are changing.

Cyberbian: you say that if pi is changing it would be detectable. It is theorized that as one accelerates toward the speed of light that time experienced for that person continues normally. Time for an observer moves normally. However when the two meet up their clocks do not match up. My point being is that it may not be detectable from our perspective. It is a known fact that as satellites orbit our planet their highly accurate internal clocks must be updated regularly with real earth time due to this drift. What if the same could be said for the calculation of Pi?

SevenThunders: you are thinking like me but what if the laws of our universe defines our math? If our universe changes, does our math change with it? Is there a point where the universe collapses into itself and everything, every number, every formula: adds up to infinity and at the big bang everything adds up to 0?

ragman: "lofty assumption that the fundamental laws of logic". I'm a strange creature because I believe that the laws change.

Cauch1, "However the universe will not cool as you put it unless there is a way for energy from our universe to be leeched.."

You almost have it!!! If I had stated that the laws of our dimensional reality were UNIFORM throughout our universe you would be absolutely correct. However I'm not saying that. The laws change based on mass and energy. During the big bang when there were theorized to be many more dimensions there was a lot of mass/energy in a small small area. The laws as we know them may differ to an observer near a black hole vs our observations on this rock. Who says they have to be constant?

mithrawept: I think that the person that made that quote is an extremely intelligent person.

Aeons: great thinking but if the number of different universes/realities is infinite then wouldn't exactly half contain life and half wouldn't?

tgidkp: I will research PHI more thanks for the tip though I'm a little skeptical of the number due to it's correlation with a biological species. Not something as clear cut as a circle or sphere.

Best regards,


[edit on 9-3-2009 by obsidience]

[edit on 9-3-2009 by obsidience]

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 09:41 PM
Infinite numbers like pi or phi don't change. Our approximations of them do.

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 09:52 PM
reply to post by Kruel


I agree with you. I also find your avatar image to be very fascinating as it seems to correlate with some of my ideas I expressed above regarding dimensions. (points, lines, circles, spheres, time)

What is it!!!???


posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 09:53 PM
PHI as described by most is allegedly a mathematical constant. if the true value of such cannot be determined, then it is not a constant. It is as near to constant as possible, but not a true constant. Therefor I would speculate that there are no true constants in the universe, save for one. The only constant identifiable by any means is "CHANGE."
The universe is constantly changing.
Everything else can be described but always changing.
Except for change itself. Unfortunately there exists within this a dichotomy. Change can be simultaneously viewed as both the constant of change, and a changing constant.
What has this to do with PHI?
PHI is the search for the beginning point or absolute center of a circle.
A true point can never be found, due to the fractal nature of the universe. As much as you want, it is implausible to find a point in space. The numbers just keep going. In particle physics, it is also theorized that below the subatomic level the rule of the universe begin to break down. Physical law does not acuratley fit into the equation at sub atomic levels.
This state of flux may also account for the inability to find the "theorized" point.
Therefore a certain degree of estimate must be taken and a value decided upon.

Not to throw more of a wrench into the works, but it has also been speculated that our numerical and mathematical thinking may have been wrong this entire time. Numbers as it turns are not entirely accurate. there are subtle degrees on irregularity. I am sure everyone has heard about the value of zero not being able to be determined and that "ONE"1" is closer really to 1.1111111111111111 etc. Again, here applies the fractal nature.

So an answer to the question of "Is phi changing?"
Yes and no.
Both and neither.
Right now, no one knows.

[edit on 9/3/2009 by reticledc]

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 09:58 PM
reply to post by reticledc


I'm so far in the rabbit hole that I can't see out any more. Everything you say rings true to me. I also appreciate your description of PHI.

Can you recommend books that discuss these topics further?


posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Dr Love
I'm sorry, but some of you guys are talking way over my head. Explain it to me like I'm Mario Lopez.


To change the value of Pi, you would have to change the shape of the circle as it is a ratio. If the shape is no longer a circle the ratio would no longer be Pi.

[edit on 3/9/2009 by Blaine91555]

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:11 PM
reply to post by obsidience

I am only human. Or not?

I read a lot from different sources.
The information sticks in there, but the specific resources may not.
Because the where is not important to me.
The material however is.
I would suggest anything dealing with the fractal nature of the universe.
The golden ratio.
String theory.
M theory.
Quantum Physics.
Quantum Mechanics.
Michio Kaku.
Carl Sagan

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