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Pastor Shot During Service

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posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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abcnews.go.com...

Pastor Shot During Service


A shooting during a morning church service outside St. Louis has left at least one person dead -- the church's pastor -- and several others wounded, officials said.
PHOTO: First Baptist Church pastor Fred Winters was killed in a shooting during a service.
Pastor Fred Winters was fatally shot by a gunman during a service Sunday at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill.
(www.fbmaryville.org/ABC News Graphic)

The Rev. Fred Winters was at the pulpit at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill. at 8:15 a.m. local time when a man "walked down the aisle of the church," approached the pulpit and shot Winters in the chest with a .45 caliber handgun, said Trooper Ralph Timmins of the Illinois State Police, which is handling the investigation.

The gun jammed, and the shooter then injured himself with a knife and subsequently was restrained by parishioners, Timmins said in a "preliminary release" left on his office voicemail recording. Approximately 150 people were in the church at the time.

Two parishioners who "tackled" the shooter received "non-life-threatening" injuries from the knife, Timmins said.

Winters was "pronounced [dead] at the hospital for a single gunshot wound to the chest," Timmins said.


Not much info yet,

What a shame.




posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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Horrible. Not good at all. Watch now they'll try to use this as an "example" why there should be more gun control. Interesting to see how this story will unravel.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Hang on, a pastor was fatally shot at church ?

an entire congregation of xtians could not heal this man ?

As sad and worrying as this type of incident is i find it even sadder that the congregation had so little faith that they could not save the mans' life.

Could the perpetrator possibly have been from another religion trying to debunk claims of faith healing ?



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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That's kind of uncalled for and just mean-spirited, moocowman.

Only the apostles had "gifts" or those that they passed them on to. The rest of the body of believers has the "fruits of the spirit" but not the gifts. Healing and other gifts were just during the time of the apostles.

What a tragedy for this church as well as for the pastor's family. I suspect this is just the beginning of Christians being killed.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:08 PM
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Hey, he got to see Jesus faster than he would have otherwise. His friends and family should thank the shooter. He did his good deed for the day it looks like. I mean he did help someone go to heaven, what could be better?

[edit on 8-3-2009 by ghaleon12]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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I think it's really interesting that the gun jammed after killing the Pastor, so that the shooter couldn't blaze away at the congregation.

Makes me wonder about the Pastor's doings as well.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:17 PM
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A truly sad incident. I am, of course, curious as to the motive of the shooter. Stormdancer, thank you very much for the find and please update us when and if you hear anything more about this story. S&F for your time.

I have to say something else here, to both moocowman and ghaleon12: your lack of compassion for your fellow man, you insensitivity to others, and your condescending attitudes will no doubt take you far in life. Moocowman, I know you have a daughter; how would you feel if the shooting were in her school, when she was one of the 150 or so people placed in danger?

Don't bother answering. I will no longer respond to you on any thread on this site. I prefer not to have a battle of wits with an un-armed opponent, as you have now shown yourself to be. May you someday find peace.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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How sad. "It's only Christians being killed. Who cares?" I remember the exact same attitude in the early days of AIDS. I can recall people actually saying out loud, "it's only n-words and queers. who cares?"

Now that AIDS has spread across all demographics and it could actually affect you or someone you love, people seem to be more caring about the situation. I wonder if Christians will get the same consideration when the round-ups and beheadings start? Those who do not learn from history.....



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


I am glad to see someone with some common sense from time to time. You constantly remind me of why you ware on my friends list.

For the poster (who does "not" hate Christians) who talks about not healing the pastor. Well first one must be smart enough to understand the teachings of certain denominations. I don’t know of many Baptists that do the laying on of hands, though I admit there maybe a few. The Baptist churches I have been to though have never practiced such a thing. I believe healing is possible though this is not the thread to debate that and I am also told not to argue frivolous arguments as they only bring strife (again this is something I am working on it seems to be a vise of mine). Healing though is possible the problem if the lack of faith many of us have in such things. Because we do not see an immediate change often we start to doubt.

As for the event I was just talking to my Pastor today about this sort of thing happening and I had not heard this story yet. Sort of a forewarning possibly of a common thing to happen in the near future, though I truly hope and pray that is not true. I am interested in hearing what the reasoning behind this crime is. Certainly this man needs some sort of help; the death penalty is not the answer in my opinion, though some counseling certainly could not hurt.

Raist


[edit on 3/8/09 by Raist]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by ghaleon12
Hey, he got to see Jesus faster than he would have otherwise. His friends and family should thank the shooter. He did his good deed for the day it looks like. I mean he did help someone go to heaven, what could be better?

[edit on 8-3-2009 by ghaleon12]


Was this a very poor attempt at sarcastic humor?

or

Was this a purposefull attempt to further increase the emotional pain this mans friends and familly must already be feeling?

or

Was this another thinly veiled attempt to spread hate toward a specific group of people of certain beliefs or faith?

I am curious of your motivation in regards to your statement.

I hope that you do not find youself in the position of thanking anyone for murdering a member of your family.




[edit on 8-3-2009 by deepred]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:05 PM
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I did a little snooping around the 'Net and came up with plenty of news articles on this incident, but it seems precious little additional information is available still. The best I could come up with was this:

The gunman strode down the aisle of the sprawling First Baptist Church shortly after 8 a.m. and briefly spoke with The Rev. Fred Winters, then pulled out a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol and began firing until it jammed, Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent said. Churchgoers wrestled the gunman to the ground as he waved a knife, slashing himself and two other people, Trent said.
Source: news.yahoo.com...
(Emphasis mine)

I realize it's not much, but it makes me wonder if the pastor actually knew the shooter. The Yahoo story states the members of the congregation didn't know him. It also says he is from Troy, IL, a place I know too well because it has one of the last decent truck stops before you hit St. Louis; I've stopped there many a time. Troy is not a crime-free area, but more the opposite.

I dunno, I'm afraid to speculate any more... but if there's going to start being shootings in churches now, I would like to know why... I guess I'm hoping this is an isolated incident. So much hatred now-a-days...

TheRedneck
Edit to add: Raist:



[edit on 8-3-2009 by TheRedneck]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Hang on, a pastor was fatally shot at church ?

an entire congregation of xtians could not heal this man ?

As sad and worrying as this type of incident is i find it even sadder that the congregation had so little faith that they could not save the mans' life.

Could the perpetrator possibly have been from another religion trying to debunk claims of faith healing ?


I find it disturbing that you would use the MURDER of a fellow human to further your agenda of spreading hate towards Christian beliefs.

I visited your profile and reviewed the threads you have started and the replies that you have posted. Unfortunately I can only come to the conclusion that you have made it your mission here on ATS to spread hate towards Christians.

I value and respect the opinion of others but, when thinly veiled hate speak is guised as opinion I find that to be despicable.

Am I wrong in thinking you hold a deep seated hate of the Christian faith?

Am I wrong to think that you are working hard to get others to join you in your hate of the Christian belief?



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by deepred

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Stormdancer777

Am I wrong in thinking you hold a deep seated hate of the Christian faith?

Am I wrong to think that you are working hard to get others to join you in your hate of the Christian belief?


No sir, you are not wrong. See the evidence in their latest thread title:
Christianity you have now overstepped the mark and I now declare war upon you

I can't imagine rejoicing in another's death.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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Let's discuss the topic and not one another.

The topic is: Pastor shot during service.

Why?

I have to say, the first thing that sprung to mind was that this pastor might have been guilty of doing something awful with a child.

The second thing that came to mind was that he might have stolen money from the congregation.

Nothing's to say that this wasn't a random, unprovoked incident, but I suspect otherwise.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see if more information surfaces.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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Where's your God now?

No, seriously... If you believe in God, ask yourself why would he allow a preacher to be shot. Then tell me if God is so all-powerful and miraculous, why has he never healed a single amputee? Don't rant at us for pointing out the obvious, rant at your God for being such a prick and allowing this to happen.

Those are your options:
1. God allowed one of his messengers to die, therefore God is a jerk and not worthy of praise.
2. God is not all-powerful and could not have prevented this, then the Bible is a lie.
3. There is no God.
4. You are okay with worshiping an unethical, spiteful, jealous being that gets off on watching babies and preachers die, and then demands you do what he says, or he locks you in the basement on fire for eternity.

[edit on 3/8/2009 by Yarcofin]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by Yarcofin
 


God was there. But so was the shooter who has freewill that chose to kill another person.

God does not stop man from sinning, he never has. He gave us the will to do as we choose. After all he could have left the tree out of the garden and none of us would have to worry about it. But then we would not have the choice to walk away from God.

As for the story (you know the Pastor that was shot the topic of this thread) it is really sad. Something else that is sad is posters coming in here and using a death to try an attack Christianity.

Raist



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:09 PM
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WTF is up with heartless people? Why didn't this "rambo"
just shoot himself and save everyone else the needless anguish?
HUH? Is this what the world is coming too?
General stupidness or an obvious lack of compassion for others?
Why do lost souls try to solve their problems with guns anyway?



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by Yarcofin
 


This is so obvious and apparently unknown to many:
We made the choice a long time ago to go with the devil
and not God. THAT explains our world.
All part of his plan to make YOU realize without him, we're all screwed!



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by WyrdeOne

I am a usually little loathe to speculate in such an absence of information as we have hear, but since you started things off...
... the first thing I thought of was either the pastor owed money to a loan shark (like I said, Troy is not a very nice place), or was involved with someone he should not have been involved in. I can easily see this action as that of an angry husband (or father, to pay tribute to your hypothesis). Since no one else in the congregation seemed to know the attacker, it just makes sense to my mind that this was a part of an alternative life he may have been leading.

Sad, isn't it? This is a pastor, supposedly one of the pillars of the community and in years long gone would never have brought such thoughts into the minds of others upon such an untimely and mysterious demise. And yet, I suspect him. Every fiber of my being screams out in hope I am wrong, that this man of God deserves that title. Is it cynicism, brought on by a half-century of seeing the terrible things humans are capable of doing? Or is it disgust at the way some church officials operate in a dual identity?

Or could it be something more sinister? A division fervently cultivated by PTB who want us fighting amongst ourselves? Who want us to immediately discount the way things should be because they may not be the way we want (and hope) them to be?

If this last possibility is true, then it would stand to reason that the improper comments made within this still-young thread would perhaps indeed be relevant (if unsettling). I understand your position as a moderator, but I thought it important to point out this fact. My greatest fear after reading the story was that it was hate-motivated and not personally-motivated. Hate has a way of spreading, as I am sure you are well aware.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
A truly sad incident. I am, of course, curious as to the motive of the shooter. Stormdancer, thank you very much for the find and please update us when and if you hear anything more about this story. S&F for your time.

I have to say something else here, to both moocowman and ghaleon12: your lack of compassion for your fellow man, you insensitivity to others, and your condescending attitudes will no doubt take you far in life. Moocowman, I know you have a daughter; how would you feel if the shooting were in her school, when she was one of the 150 or so people placed in danger?

Don't bother answering. I will no longer respond to you on any thread on this site. I prefer not to have a battle of wits with an un-armed opponent, as you have now shown yourself to be. May you someday find peace.

TheRedneck



My comment is more of a test to fellow Christians. I see many inconsistencies with their beliefs and how they act/react to situations and I find it fascinating. There are not many that are strong in faith unfortunately within the Christian community, and it makes Christianity look weak as a whole and a bit confused.




Was this a purposefull attempt to further increase the emotional pain this mans friends and familly must already be feeling?


So by saying that he is in heaven according to their own beliefs, how is that increasing pain? So much of this is a Christians inability to accept and follow their own beliefs. Jesus says so many wise things in the Bible but they seem to go on deaf ears by his own followers.

Can anyone answer what wrong this shooter did? An atheist could give me an answer, a Christian shouldn't be able to.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by ghaleon12]



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