It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

SCHIP & Obama - raise taxes on the poor

page: 2
3
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 04:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by marg6043
he is raising the tax on cigarettes no the poor, beside cigarettes are damaging to your health so hey this will be a good time to quit.


He is raising taxes on the poor. The poor are the ones that do most of the smoking and therefore he is raising their taxes.

There is NO REASON to raise them. None. He is punishing a way of life instead of cutting back on unnecessary spending and letting people live their lives without government interference.

He broke his promise. He said he wouldn't raise ANY of their taxes. And he stressed the word ANY. So this can be added to the long list of Obama's broken campaign promises.




posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 04:50 AM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


so, those poor and those middle class people chose to avoid the tax and quit smoking.....YAAAAY!! they are no longer taxds for another social handout for the few!! YIPPY!! but wait a minute......the programs are already in place, they money they derived from the cigarette tax never totally paid for the program to begin with, and with less and less people agreeing to the tax, guess what......regardless of weather they quit smoking or not.....they will be seeing a tax increase, because the program's funding needs is no way related to just how many of the smokers (which you claim one of the objectives if to force them to quit smoking) actually quit smoking!!

so, why quit smoking, you gonna get it with the tax anyways!!

the only reason they attached the idea that the smokers will pay for the program is to get those who hate the cigarettes, and the smokers to line up in support for the program, if these people had enough foresight to realize that hey, as more and more smokers vanish from the scene.....they will get stuck with the tab, well.....more than likely a bunch of them wouldn't be supporting it!
like I keep saying that art of scapegoating at it's best!



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 06:39 AM
link   
Hey for those that smoke why don't you get a garden plot and start growing Tobacco, you know I remember when people used to grow their own tobacco in their back yard.

Raw tobacco is actually healthy for you.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 08:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
If EVERY single tax was increased except for the bare necessity, would you still agree with this?


That's a huge "if". And the answer is, that I probably would agree. I wouldn't like it, but we have to pay for the hemorrhaging that this country has been doing in the recent past. The government's been lowering taxes and spending $billions on the war and not taxing properly to balance it. So now, we have a huge deficit to pay so, with reluctance, I'd probably agree with it. This is another thing we knew was coming. Having to pay back what Bush spent. And taxes is a reasonable way to do it. I approve of consumption tax.

My point with my cooperation in this thread is that this ISN'T Obama "taxing the poor" and breaking a campaign promise as the OP and others allege. That's a logical fallacy:

Obama is taxing cigarettes.
Poor people buy cigarettes.
Therefore Obama is taxing poor people.


When the truth is that he's taxing rich people who smoke, too. He's taxing everyone who chooses to smoke. The same (lack of) logic applies here:

Obama is taxing leather
I buy leather shoes, coats and gloves
Obama is taxing women!




Or lets say driving your car for leisure never had a tax in the first place. If a new tax was imposed, wouldn't you take that as an "increased tax to you"? You are now either forced to quit, or pay taxes.


No, actually, I wouldn't. That's a total victim stance and it's not where I go. I would totally agree with a leisure gas tax. I could afford to pay it, but if I couldn't I'd quit. It's so simple. I have a choice.



Your argument disgusts me.


Well, that's fine. I'm pretty disgusted with the victim mentality I see people displaying. People act like they have no choice about the whole thing. They take no accountability for their choices. I don't have a lot of sympathy for that. If that disgusts you, I'm okay with it.




When he says "None of your taxes" - that means any taxes that you pay.


There's no way he could have promised not to raise taxes on any consumables. That's an unrealistic expectation. He never promised that and if that's what people thought, they weren't listening to him.



Straight ticket democrat, or just afraid of going back on your vote?


I'm not a member of any political party and I have voted for all parties. I'm not afraid of "going back on my vote". The reason Obama is raising this tax is for SCHIP State Children's Health Insurance Program. The money has to come from somewhere. And since there's about $100 Billion health care dollars spent on issues around smoking each year, that seems to be taking a big bite out of health care. I think it's reasonable.



Can you explain to me how something is "not my tax" if I pay it?


You're CHOOSING to pay it. If you don't want it to be YOUR tax, stop paying it. It's that simple. No one is forcing you to pay it. Jesus, own your choices.



But just because it does not affect you, does not make it right.


Even when I smoked, I agreed with the taxes. And some of the things I do are taxed. I pay for the children of this country to be educated, even though I don't have children and I don't bitch about it. Because that's how a society works. I'm suffering along with everyone else because of this economic crisis even though I did all the right things, never lived outside my means, don't have any credit bills and worked hard. But because so many in this country were irresponsible and greedy, the whole thing is crashing and I still have to pay the consequences. But that's part of living in a society with other people. We all live together in this country and we work to support each other, like it or not. We're not all on our own. Half of us would die if we were.



another lie that will be swept under the carpet.


There was no lie. See logical fallacy above.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 09:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
Thats like saying

"They are raising the prices on food sold at the store, not the middle and lower class".


1. Eating is not a choice.
2. The rich eat, too.



Yes it is a choice, but since when is it cool to tax "choices" just because it is a "choice"?


When that hobby is costing $ 100 billion every year and putting a huge drain on the system that you promised to help.



I do not like smoking myself, but damn, it is their choice to do it


Exactly. And it is their choice to pay the tax.


and JUST BECAUSE ALL THE HATE ON IT, taxes like this will pass.


Just FYI, I don't hate smoking. In fact, I love it. And I FULLY support people's choice to smoke. I think business owners should have the decision whether or not to allow smoking in their establishments. If people don't like it, they can go somewhere else. I love the smell of smoke and if I found out I was going to die in a month, the first thing I'd do is start smoking again. So, my position isn't about hating on smoking. And it's not about loving Obama.

It's about agreeing with the logic of taxing a consumable that is a drain on the very system that he has promised to shore up. Especially since that consumable is a CHOICE. Just because you don't agree with that position, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 10:10 AM
link   
One more thing.
Here's the promise Obama DID keep:
Oct 2008: Obama PLEDGES to sign SCHIP into law



Tobacco Taxes

Industry insiders say a massive tobacco tax, such as the one proposed in the so-called SCHIP bill, is the most immediate threat to the cigar industry. This year only President Bush’s veto stopped what would have been a 256% increase in cigar taxes, meaning an increase of up to $3 per cigar. Obama clearly favors funding programs with tobacco taxes. He voted for the SCHIP cigar tax increase and has pledged to sign the bill into law. His campaign calls the senator “an ardent supporter of SCHIP.”


SCHIP was in his Health Care Plan

And Polifact is listing SCHIP as a Promise Kept

So, this REALLY isn't about Obama breaking a pledge, but keeping one.


[edit on 9-3-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 03:03 PM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

but...
he isn't raising this tax to pay down the debt..
he's raising it to expand one of the social programs...he's doing it so he expand that debt, he just figures that he he throws the smokers in as the primary victims, he will get more supporters.

trust me, we will all be paying for that massive debt that's been accumulating, but we will paying more for this program!



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 03:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by dawnstar
he isn't raising this tax to pay down the debt..


Oh, I know. I was responding to an unrelated specific question from another poster. I wasn't saying that this tobacco tax is to pay that debt.




he's raising it to expand one of the social programs...


Yes. One of the programs he campaigned on. One of the programs people elected him to put into place.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 05:09 PM
link   
If someone already touched on this, I apologize, but I couldn't make it through reading the rest of the posts to post myself.

Doctors, hospitals, treatment facilities, insurance companies, prisons, etc., are making a killing (no pun intended) on drugging us, and us killing ourselves with addictive substances. I am a smoker, and I will quit now because I can't afford to smoke; rolling tobacco is too hard on my lungs, even with filters, even the organic stuff. My point, though, is it is unfair to target the smokers, no matter how bad smoking is for us. What I believe is going on is the continued annihilation of the poor, which make up the majority of smokers. I'm sure that all on this site are aware Obama is Bush's cousin, and that trail leads many directions. I am not racist. I believe in equal treatment for all. Obama is one of "Them", and their plan is to work the poor to death while getting as much money from them as possible before they die prematurely from the addictive substances we most likely never had a choice in starting. What do you do when your life is miserable? Drink, do drugs, smoke. You mirror what your family did. You do the things that were introduced into your system before you had a choice, whether that be prenatal, or environmental exposure. It's very difficult to rise above the influences introduced to your system before you were able to make conscious choices. Anyone out there who found it easy to quit smoking/drinking/doing drugs were most likely never really addicted int the first place- it wasn't something you were surrounded by during you childhood. They don't want us to quit smoking, and they know people most likely won't- they will pay their prices, the cigarette companies will continue to rake in our money, along with all of the others who are getting rich off of the poor. Aside from the fact that federal income taxes are illegal for everyone but corporations (see "America- Freedom to Facism"), healthcare for all could easily be funded if all of the garbage our taxes were going to was cut out.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 05:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by kflei
Obama is one of "Them", and their plan is to work the poor to death while getting as much money from them as possible before they die prematurely from the addictive substances we most likely never had a choice in starting.


If that were true, wouldn't "they" be making it easier for the poor to smoke, instead of harder?


Anyone out there who found it easy to quit smoking/drinking/doing drugs were most likely never really addicted int the first place-


No one said it's easy. In fact, that's what helped me quit. acknowledging that it was going to be one of the hardest things I'd ever done. NOT looking for the easy way out. There isn't one. I started when I was 12 and quit when I was 44. It's damn hard. But it's possible and eminently WORTH IT!



They don't want us to quit smoking, and they know people most likely won't- they will pay their prices, the cigarette companies will continue to rake in our money, along with all of the others who are getting rich off of the poor.


So, why continue to play "their" game? Why let "them" manipulate you like that?



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 05:44 PM
link   
Their only desires are money and control of the people; if you don't see that, then you haven't been watching the news. I wish more than anything that I am wrong; we'll just have to see how it all plays out.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 06:04 PM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I realized I used dramatic analogies to try to prove my point but you still disagree with me so be it.

This is a lie to the "3rd" class citizens of this country and thats it. When they hear that none of their taxes will be raised, they more than likely took it the way I explained it. Obama knew that they thought the same as I have posted., when realistically, it was only a ploy to get votes from the lower class.

This is an insult to a class and maybe to some of you here, but, do you really think these lower class citizens would comprehend the statement made by Barack? They hear no new taxes, and they figure they are not getting ANY.

It is a war of words. Those for Obama will take it one way, and those against him will take it another.

Not positive on this - but as I stated, it just seems that the whole class that practically voted for him got lied to.

There ARE bigger issues at hand, and (IMO) this is just one of the many lies any republican or democrat candidate will say. In reality, I am for the tax, but still think he told a lie. Just because I do not have sympathy for smokers, but coming from the president, or presidential candidate at the time, it was just like a slap to those who voted him in.

We need an election reform. Candidates should be held to some sort of standard higher than what it is now when they go back on things they said during the election.

With what Obama said in the video, while many of us see it one way, it still could be argued the other, regardless of how many people will believe it.

[edit on 9-3-2009 by FritosBBQTwist]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 06:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, this REALLY isn't about Obama breaking a pledge, but keeping one.

Spin spin spin


Obama promised he wouldn't raise ANY taxes on the poor. He stressed the word ANY. He raised cigarette taxes through the roof. The demographics are well known that beer/cigarette taxes are taxing the poor because they are the ones who mostly partake of these. Therefore, Obama HAD to know that this was raising a tax on the poor.

Raising taxes on the poor - it's another in a growing line of broken promises.


As i said - I am not against these taxes IF THEY ARE NECESSARY. Considering the massive waste that Obama has signed in during his first six weeks - I say these bigger taxes on the poor are NOT necessary. The gov't is overspending. Cut the spending and then the poor won't be taxed as much.



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 06:17 PM
link   
To all the people who are urging smokers to quit to avoid the tax.

How DARE you! Don't you know Mr. Obama is doing this for the children? Don't you care about children? In fact if you cared at all about children, you would buy a pack of smokes just to help them out! Because if alot of people quit smoking the children will get less help, which would defeat the purpose of this tax on the poor.



[edit on 9-3-2009 by RRconservative]



posted on Mar, 9 2009 @ 06:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Spin spin spin


Not at all. It's quite straightforward. He promised to sign SCHIP and he did. Saying that he's "taxing the poor" because of a 20-second video, now THAT'S spin!



Obama promised he wouldn't raise ANY taxes on the poor.


He was talking about tax code, tax rates and his plan for INCOME taxes. Let's look at more than your 20-second clip:



My plan - all together - is a net tax cut. My plan will cut taxes to a smaller share of the economy than they were under President Reagan. Under my plan, income taxes for typical American families will be the lowest that they've been in more than a half century. Everyone in America - everyone - will pay lower taxes than they would under the rates Bill Clinton had in the 1990s. And under my plan, middle class families will get three times as much relief as Senator McCain is offering. In fact, his plan gives absolutely nothing to over 100 million American households.

And I can make a firm pledge: under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase - not your income taxes, not your payroll taxes, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.


Source

[edit on 9-3-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Mar, 10 2009 @ 07:06 AM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


really, I thought he was elected because the majority of the american people came to the realization that they just couldn't trust the republican party not to just continue dragging us further into the sewer.

Obama ran under the slogan of "Change". and he's just following along with the golden rulebook that has been in place for decades, at least with healthcare. yes, expand the programs a little more, bring in from the bottom enough to fill up the appointment slots that are being left from those higher up on the income scale who are finding it just impossible to continue making those appointments. this hasn't worked, it isn't gonna work. all that is gonna happen is that it will reward a couple insurance companies to benefit a great deal (hey, probably why the yacks on cnbc is saying how good the healthcare industry will be for investement!), and it will have an inflationary effect on the costs, since well, you want that number of the needy people to keep growing, so you can suck more taxpayer money into the healthcare system! there is nothing new, and this is not change!

change would be going foreward with the notion that every family in this country with a working adult within it should be able to pay for their own basic needs...on thier own....and that if you are able to work, you should be working, what the heck, our current system seems to be disintergrating before our eyes, why not try something "new" and redesign it to portray those values we claim to hold above the rest....indedpendance and the freedom that it provides! well, when it comes to healthcare, neither of these two things seems to be even in the picture anymore. no one could guarentee that they could indenpendantly cover their healthcare costs, and very few doctors no have the freedom to practice medicine the way that they believe they should be.



posted on Mar, 10 2009 @ 07:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by RRconservative
To all the people who are urging smokers to quit to avoid the tax.

How DARE you! Don't you know Mr. Obama is doing this for the children? Don't you care about children? In fact if you cared at all about children, you would buy a pack of smokes just to help them out! Because if alot of people quit smoking the children will get less help, which would defeat the purpose of this tax on the poor.



[edit on 9-3-2009 by RRconservative]

na.....they will just find a new victim....
I'm hoping that it's those smellyperfume wearers myself, but .....those dems are really radical, who knows maybe they will decide to go after all those blue jeans wearers, or high heel shoe fanatics...or....hey, the meat eaters, ya that's where they should go, after the meat eaters. tax the hades out of our meat! all those pigs are reallly smelly, the cows let out too much methane, and the chickens, oh those chickens, with their constant crowing in the early morning hours! and at this point, there's more people eating mean than smoking cigarettes, so maybe the tax will be more evenly dispersed within the population. so, more people will care just how much this program is really costing, so, more people just might take the idea of actually doing something to bring down the cost some instead of thinking that things are just hunky dory because the get free perscriptions and can slap the other bills onto their credit card. I like using examples that I know to exist...there's actually someone I know that is doing this!! get's free perscription, so ya, everything's great, but then well, has a little med key card that she's slapping everything else on, and hey, at the moment, it's low interest....and she only has to pay $20 a month... another trap laid....waiting to be sprung!! the fact of the matter is that for everyone paying into their healthinsurance plans, for all the money the boss is throwing in, the insurance company doesn't pay much of anything (outside of the free drugs!!) till one of us runs up three thousand in medical bills. well, outside of the free drugs....I think my boss would save money if he just paid our medical bills and we did without the insurance, at least this year he probably did!

but...they all got the drugs!!! ya.....they all got their own made to order toxic martini!! that's all that matters, right?



posted on Mar, 10 2009 @ 07:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by dawnstar
really, I thought he was elected because the majority of the american people came to the realization that they just couldn't trust the republican party not to just continue dragging us further into the sewer.


I'm sure that's one reason that some voted for him. But there are many other reasons people voted for him that have nothing to do with the Republican party. Many voted for him to make the changes that he promised to make.



Obama ran under the slogan of "Change". and he's just following along with the golden rulebook that has been in place for decades, at least with healthcare.


I have seen that that's a common perception. And depending who you talk to, you'll get a different answer. Has Obama shown change? His detractors will say no. They'll point out all the ways that he is doing things the same way as people before him. His supporters will say yes and list the things he's doing that are different. Anyone who expected him to change everything completely - 100% different than anyone has ever done before - is having unrealistic expectations. He's a politician, the president and he has to work within a framework in Washington. He's not God or the King. He can't go in there and make everything magically change. There are some things that are going to be similar to what people have seen before. But if people don't see the differences between Bush and Obama, then they're not looking very hard.


this hasn't worked,


After 50 days, it's not fixed yet???



it isn't gonna work. all that is gonna happen ... and this is not change!


That's your prediction. And we'll see in a couple years if you're right.



change would be...


Everyone has an idea of what Obama would be/should be/could be doing. Some are seeing change, some aren't. What I tell people is when they get elected, they can do it as they think it should be done and see what kind of results they get.

In the meantime, I will give him more than 50 days before I make my judgment of his presidency. I will give him 2 years at least.

But the facts are: he said he wouldn't raise income taxes on the poor and he has stayed true to that word. And he said he would sign SCHIP and he did. No lie. No broken promise. I don't expect anyone to change their mind about him, but we should be talking about the facts instead of all this drama about the poor people who have no choice but to smoke.



posted on Mar, 10 2009 @ 07:45 AM
link   
it wasn't a prediction, it is just what I have observed over the past decade or so. they extend the benefits to bring in a few more who they think are deserving of their help, the big wigs at the top of the industries who get the perks of all this new business pat themselves on the back with nice pay raises and bonuses, then, well, they have to make sure that the pool of "the needy" is still topping, so they proceed to increase the premiums, cutting the benefits, ect..

then's there's more people uninsured, underinsured when they had started probably, but we all feel oh so warm and fuzzy because we help these poor souls over here....

what they are in fact doing is taking too much out to run their disgustedly huge monstrousities that they are leaving use without enough to get by on. then, well, they proceed to give back what they believe we need, if they feel we deserve it... hoping that we will feel grateful enough to shower them with praise and votes !!!

freedom and independance gets shot out, replaced with money and power, just another fancy slogan to raise up once and in while to get the masses up in arms and ready to fight another war. freedom and independance go hand in hand. you can't have one without the other. you can't be free if you are forced to take handouts given by your government because the wages in the jobs you can get are so pathetic!



posted on Mar, 10 2009 @ 07:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by dawnstar
it wasn't a prediction, it is just what I have observed over the past decade or so. they extend the benefits to bring in a few more who they think are deserving of their help, the big wigs at the top of the industries who get the perks of all this new business pat themselves on the back with nice pay raises and bonuses, then, well, they have to make sure that the pool of "the needy" is still topping, so they proceed to increase the premiums, cutting the benefits, ect..

then's there's more people uninsured, underinsured when they had started probably, but we all feel oh so warm and fuzzy because we help these poor souls over here....

what they are in fact doing is taking too much out to run their disgustedly huge monstrousities that they are leaving use without enough to get by on. then, well, they proceed to give back what they believe we need, if they feel we deserve it... hoping that we will feel grateful enough to shower them with praise and votes !!!

freedom and independance gets shot out, replaced with money and power, just another fancy slogan to raise up once and in while to get the masses up in arms and ready to fight another war. freedom and independance go hand in hand. you can't have one without the other. you can't be free if you are forced to take handouts given by your government because the wages in the jobs you can get are so pathetic!


SO who is going to raise wages if they can go to china to get the job done and sell it here at bottom line margins???

I like the whole freedom and independent idea - however the brand of freedom and independence that is being tossed about will done a fine job of instilling more money and power to the MONEY AND POWER.



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join