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SCHIP & Obama - raise taxes on the poor

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posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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Before anyone asks .. no, I don't smoke.


“I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes” (Barack Obama, September 12, 2008, Dover, NH).



By signing SCHIP bill, Obama breaks campaign promise not to raise ANY taxes on those making under $250,000 per year. Obama’s signature puts into effect a 156 percent increase in the federal excise tax on tobacco, a hike of 61 cents per pack.

Those most effected by this tax increase are the middle- and low-income Americans that Obama said he would not raise taxes on:

* 55 percent of smokers are “working poor”
* One in four smokers live below the poverty line
* On average, smokers, whose median income is a little more than $36,000, make about 30 percent less than non-smokers.


BizJournals


The $33 billion bill will raise federal cigarette taxes from 39 cents to $1 per pack. It also raises federal levies on cigars, rolling papers and other tobacco-related products.


Tax Foundation - Fiscal Information

Oral Cancer Foundation - smokers demographics

CNN - who smokes

NY Times chart - as income increases, smoking decreases.

BBC - Poor Smokers

ABC News - Do cigarette taxes help or hurt poor people?

Poor diet among poor smokers

I have no problem with raising taxes on cigarettes. If it forces people to quit because they can no longer afford it ... great. If those lower numbers of smokers means less health problems for society to deal with later ... great. However, the stats show that poor people generally will give up food before they give up their cigarettes.

Obama raised taxes on the poor after promising not to.
(Another broken promise.)
Does this help or hurt the poor?




posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 09:35 AM
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I am a smoker and this is going to give me incentive to quit but I agree that this is a tax that will be a burden to the middle class and below. Once again Obama goes against his word during his campaign but that's how it always seems to work.

The thing I find most interesting is that they are going to apply the tax to rolling papers and other tobacco related products. Many people say I roll my own so this wont be a problem but this is obviously not the case.

Smokers are being hit from every angle and a lot of the regulations I can live with but not excessive taxes when other products like alcohol and extremely unhealthy foods do not get nearly as much attention.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 10:00 AM
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Agreed TV_Nation. I couldn't have said it better myself.

We've been over this before (the issue on taxes on tobacco) here on ATS. This tax will raise the total tax on Cigarettes in some states to $3.00 per pack or more.

Of course, you can't expect them to raise taxes on McNuggets or Supersized fries. The "masses" would have a fit if they did.

But hey, the people voted him in and practically gave him carte blanch to do what he wanted. *heavy sigh*



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 10:10 AM
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Parallel discussion going on here.

This will also hurt state's efforts to use the tobacco tax as a revenue generator.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by jsobecky]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 10:23 AM
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Good for Obama!


He's not taxing poor people.
He's increasing the cigarette tax. It doesn't matter how much a person makes, if they smoke, they're going to have to pay more. Trying to make this into a "taxing the poor" argument is really weak.

If poor people CHOOSE to spend their money on cigarettes, then they'll have to pay the same as everyone else, but it IS a CHOICE.

Hopefully, this will encourage a lot of them to spend their money on food for their kids instead of poisoning themselves and the kids.

I'm all for the freedom to smoke, but let's put the responsibility for this where it belongs. On the people who choose to continue to smoke. No one is forcing those poor people to smoke.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 11:10 AM
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Good for Obama? For breaking a major campaign pledge and lying to the American people?

Yes, it's a choice to smoke. What will you say about the Cap and Trade taxes that will hit all of us? That it is a choice to use electricity?



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Good for Obama!


He's not taxing poor people.
He's increasing the cigarette tax. It doesn't matter how much a person makes, if they smoke, they're going to have to pay more. Trying to make this into a "taxing the poor" argument is really weak.

If poor people CHOOSE to spend their money on cigarettes, then they'll have to pay the same as everyone else, but it IS a CHOICE.

Hopefully, this will encourage a lot of them to spend their money on food for their kids instead of poisoning themselves and the kids.

I'm all for the freedom to smoke, but let's put the responsibility for this where it belongs. On the people who choose to continue to smoke. No one is forcing those poor people to smoke.


Hehe... although I hate to admit it, I'll have to agree with you on this one it really is a weak argument. We can do better.


[edit on 8/3/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Good for Obama? For breaking a major campaign pledge and lying to the American people?


jsobecky, you KNOW Obama was talking about income tax, capitol gains taxes, etc.. Personal taxes as opposed to commodity taxes. And you KNOW he was talking about taxing people based on their income. I KNOW you're smarter than to think that taxing cigarettes is taxing the poor. Don't lower yourself to this level of grasping-at-straws type of extremism. It only makes you look desperate. Obama can't control what people spend their money on...

If poor people spent their money on alcohol (which is also taxed pretty high), it still wouldn't be a broken promise.

If you want to complain because, as a smoker, you're going to have to pay more for cigarettes as you did in your thread, at least that's a valid complaint, but this charge of a broken promise is just beneath you. (Oh, I see you've added this "broken promise' crap to your thread, too... Ugh :shk: )


What will you say about the Cap and Trade taxes that will hit all of us?


I will not complain. I have said for years that we need to do something about the way we waste energy. We should be paying more for energy. I do believe it's an incentive to be more frugal. My family has been frugal for years in preparation for this. We have been working toward energy conservation and sufficiency whenever we can. While others were buying big-screen TVs and big new cars, we were buying Solar panels. So if you're looking for someone to whine and cry because we're breaking our dependence on foreign oil, you're looking at the wrong person.

Edit: If Iamonlyhuman and I agree on this, I gotta think it's obvious that this "broken promise" idea is really reaching. And I agree. You (jso) can do better. This kind of argument just removes any credibility from your valid complaints against Obama.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 12:47 PM
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I am not a smoker so it doesn't affect me. I can go on unencumbered by the cigarette tax. No problem right? Wrong.

I am bothered by the smug attitude of the arrogant nonsmokers that love to point out others faults.

Things would be different if Obama decided to put a 63 cent per liter tax on bottled water.

That would be mor fair right?

Everybody would get to share the burden of 'change' and not just the socially unpopular smokers.

It will come around though. They will go after the non-pc crowd first and the pc crowd will cheer. Then it will begin to creep into the pc crowds back yard as well. They will get the opportunity to experience consternation and then anger over the fact that they have been targeted as well. They won't think it 'fair' any more but it will be too late oh arrogant pc cheerleader. You will get yours. The cheerful enabler will get his or her chance to be a target.

Just remember the day you supported raising taxes on another group of people and how self righteous you felt about it. That will make it all better when it is your habit they tax.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by badgerprints
I am bothered by the smug attitude of the arrogant nonsmokers that love to point out others faults.


I don't know who you're talking about because you didn't say, but I will respond to your charge, just in case you are including me as having a smug attitude and being arrogant.


I smoked for nearly 30 years. I still love the smell and I don't have any problem with people smoking around me. In fact, I like it. I have no moral judgments about smokers and didn't point out anyone's faults for smoking. I am not one of those militant ex-smokers and in fact, I hate their attitude. It's like they have completely forgotten what it's like to be addicted to it. I have not.



Things would be different if Obama decided to put a 63 cent per liter tax on bottled water.


Well, yes, it would be different. Drinking bottled water does not put a strain on our health care system. Smoking does. By the way, I never drink bottled water, either.


$72.7Billion a Year on Smoking Related Health Care in 1998

$96.7 Billion Now



Just remember the day you supported raising taxes on another group of people and how self righteous you felt about it.


He's not raising taxes on an innocent group of people. He's raising taxes on a commodity. It's their choice whether to buy that commodity or not. They are not victims. They are addicts and there's plenty of help to quit out there. Millions of people do it. I did it. If people don't want to stop smoking, that's certainly their right, but it's not like they're a victim of this. It's a choice.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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Well people keep saying that smokers raise the cost of health care which I am sure it does. People fail to even look into the reason health care is through the roof. We now have a ratio of doctors per patients at 900 to 1 meaning You pay out the butt for health care because its that way for a reason. Most people think universal insurance is the solution to the problem and like usual the ignorant public eats it up. Most people never realize that the government intentionally closed down medical schools to bottle up the industry in favor for the insurance companies. So sit around and laugh as other people get taxed to oblivion because it will effect You later. I for one think the poor raise the cost of medical to so should we start taxing them also?



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
you KNOW Obama was talking about income tax, capitol gains taxes, etc.. Personal taxes as opposed to commodity taxes.

You KNOW Obama said - in his own words - he wouldn't raise ANY of their taxes. ANY


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
He's not taxing poor people.

Yes he is. And he broke yet another campaign promise.
No surprise there.


As i said - I don't mind the 'sin' taxes. I don't mind raising cigarette taxes or alcohol taxes AS LONG AS IT IS REALLY NECESSARY ... but frankly I don't think it's necessary to increase these taxes that are overwhelmingly paid by the poor.

The government can cut back on spending in other areas that aren't necessary. Instead of spending $50 million for Nancy Pelosi's mice, just instead spend THAT on SCHIP programs and stop taking money from poor people.

Immediate spelling edit

[edit on 3/8/2009 by FlyersFan]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


So, it doesn't bother you that he lied and will break another campaign promise with cap and trade? Just because you live in the desert and have a few solar panels? Solar is a very limited, small scale solution that does not work equally well across the nation.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
So, it doesn't bother you that he lied and will break another campaign promise with cap and trade?


He didn't lie or break a promise. I already went over this. I totally support consumption tax, so I'm fine with it.



Solar is a very limited, small scale solution that does not work equally well across the nation.


That was just one example. There are many ways to cut electrical costs. My point was that we've known this was coming for some time now and to express false outrage now is a bit disingenuous.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


No you didn't go over this.

“I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.”

And when he increases the ceilings on SS and Medicare payroll dedctions, you'll still defend it.

How does 'knowing it was coming' make it OK? We knew he was going to lie, so it's OK?

The outrage being expressed isn't false. What will you say when he confiscates 401K's to support his "Gov't Retirement Accounts"?



Strange way of looking at things..



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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You're playing dumb, jsobecky. I know you better than that. I'm not going to continue this silly semantic game.
Sorry.

And when Obama does these other things that you're certain he's going to do, we can talk about it then. But there's no use speculating about things that haven't happened.

I've made my point and repeated my position several times. If you haven't gotten it by now, there's no point in repeating it again.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


If EVERY single tax was increased except for the bare necessity, would you still agree with this?

I mean, he wouldn't technically be taxing you, would he?

Or lets say driving your car for leisure never had a tax in the first place. If a new tax was imposed, wouldn't you take that as an "increased tax to you"? You are now either forced to quit, or pay taxes.

Your argument disgusts me. While I do not smoke, and I think smokers/drinkers get hit hard, Obama told a lie not only to the American people, but practically to a WHOLE CLASS OF PEOPLE THAT VOTED HIM IN.

When he says "None of your taxes" - that means any taxes that you pay. If I smoked cigarettes, I am paying a tax on it. By raising that tax, he is raising MY taxes.

I never liked Obama in the first place. Only reason I even thought I could deal with him is that he MIGHT have been a man for the people...but it is obvious he isn't.

You are an obvious Obama supporter, which I have seen you made valid points, but you supporting a lie so blatant as this, it is absurd. He could raise taxes by 200%, but you would still say it is for the good of the people. Straight ticket democrat, or just afraid of going back on your vote?

These poor people hear that NONE of their TAXES would be raised. NONE. Not only poor people, but all people.

Can you explain to me how something is "not my tax" if I pay it?

To tell you the truth, I really don't care about the increased taxes on it since it does not affect me...but ever hear of this?

"'First, they came after the communists, and I held my tongue, for I was not a communist.'

'then, they came for the Jews, and I held my tongue, for I am not a Jew'

'then, homosexuals, and still I held my tongue'

'by the time they came for me, there was nobody left to raise their voice'"

I take no credit for that quote, and I do not remember who said it. But just because it does not affect you, does not make it right. It is only a sign of another politician making bull# lies and people like you taking it in.

Does not affect me, and I will not go out and protest it, but it still angers me that it is just another lie that will be swept under the carpet.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:24 PM
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Well first off $#@$ smoking... I am on day 12 off... I feel like I am withdrawing from a parallel universe and heroin at the same time. I have had fevers, cold sweats, insomnia,
my teeth are noticeably loose from grinding them, I have strange aches, I have man PMS and I generally feel I would rather be engage in a sustained bar fight!!!

Anyhow I think smoking is the worst decision I have ever made, we should all stop and spend the money on other things IMO.

On this issue I disagree with Obama and in a rare occurrence I agree with JSO that this tax should be more of a state issue. However, I do not think the angle and title of the thread is accurate.

I'm sorry but the concepts of CHOICE / DECISION / RESPONSIBILITY are often a strong angle championed by Conservatives, that being said I think this falls into that category.
Nobody is forcing YOU or ME to smoke, therefore this tax is not mandatory, IMO it is a matter of free will.


Thank you again BH for your kind unsolicited good will, you are a class act





[edit on 8-3-2009 by mental modulator]



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by jsobecky
 


Sorry to tell you this but he is raising the tax on cigarettes no the poor, beside cigarettes are damaging to your health so hey this will be a good time to quit.

After all with all the economic distress people should be saving money for food no cigarettes that is considered an addiction.



posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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Thats like saying

"They are raising the prices on food sold at the store, not the middle and lower class".

Get real.

If there is a hobby that people do, by raising taxes, they are either forcing them to quit, or to pay more taxes. Yes it is a choice, but since when is it cool to tax "choices" just because it is a "choice"?

I sit in front of my computer for a crap load of time. Lets tax computer usage...not only is it bad for your eyes, its not something one needs to do.
Same concept. Only reason some of you agree with this new tax is

1. You are a ferocious Obama lover.
2. You just hate smoking because the MSM portrays it EVIL.

I do not like smoking myself, but damn, it is their choice to do it and JUST BECAUSE ALL THE HATE ON IT, taxes like this will pass.




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