Christianity you have now overstepped the mark and I now declare war upon you

in utah (mormon state USA), the public high schools have seminaries on school grounds where the kids can opt to take classes on mormonism and mormon-based history (they have their own version of what happened in the ancient past on this planet). and although it could be said to be a christian religion, it really is more like masonry on steroids. so i don't think it's just a UK thing. here in the US something like that would be only possible via a loophole of some kind. they found some way to uphold their rights to do this on public school grounds (perhaps because it's in a separate building and may not be literally on school property, although it is a class students can take).

anyway, the public school system is based loosely on atheism or rather agnosticism. religious classes are often treated as an after thought, typically an elective, and usually for less important career paths -- such as historian or communication specialists.

As I see it. Your problem should be with the school. Not christianity.
The school has introduced christianity, the organisation that is the school. Not christianity.
You sent your child to this school, how where you not aware of the schools policies relating to religion. I find this odd.
It is my understanding that when religion is entered into state run or secular schools, that parental permission must be given to attend these small RE classes that are usually conductd by catechists of all faiths. Permission is essential given liability and child protection laws. Legally these schools cannot force your child to attend. I personally cannot see schools exposing themselves to the legal, political and social nightmare, secularist believe these are human rights breaches, that surrounds these laws if they break them.
If the school has forced your daughter to attend, you should be very annoyed, but again, it should only be with the school. I would be getting legal representation, contatcted your local government representative and attending the school immediately, why waste time with pity flyers or posters.
Wales is very strict on religious worship in secular schools, I know that they even time students who have "personal reflection or worship".
Also, not getting too personal, but are you a single parent, as I know sometimes parents may provide permission without dual consent, just curious. Consent may have been given by another parent. Just my 2 bobs worth.

If I were you I would contact the National Secular Society, you story would be huge for them and I am sure they will come to your aid.

reply to post by moocowman


I still believe you are missing the point. You knew (or I would presume you knew) your daughter was going to have such a class. It has been reported many times on here and in the news how such classes teach their own form of religion. Even if you have not heard such reports it would be wise to believe they may teach your daughter something you may not agree with.

As a parent who would be concerned it is your duty to know what the curriculum is to such a class before it starts. If you did not care enough to knew or understand what your daughter was being taught from the start why worry about it now. It is our job to discover what will be taught in such classes, and ask throughout the course what is being taught and what is happening.

Your post shows only that you were not involved enough in your daughter’s classes or you would have known from the very first week what was going on. Really you should be blaming yourself for not knowing sooner before anyone else.

Now as for your last remark. I as a Christian (I still have my problems though with things such as anger, so if my post seems angry or rude please do not blame other Christians blame me) would have wondered about such a class and ask about it from the start. I as a Christian would not be having this problem right now that you seem to be having. Remember that critical thinking you speak so much about? When you kid goes to school it is a good time to use it.

Raist

Religions, and particularly the rabidly zealous monotheistic ones, are the original and primary reason why no truly worthy enough unseen beings will have anything to do with this "civilization;" at least before any huge disasters occur. Imagine how primitive such people who believe the entire universe is comprised of only God, Satan, angels, demons and humans would seem to a civilized enough race or society of beings. This place reeks to High Heaven (pun very much intended) of ignorance. Prime Directive (or its actual name). Tough love. Get used to it.

reply to post by moocowman


it is your choice who you worship but what if this were to happen:
in the future the indoctrination of your child into worshipping what you worship fails, & one day you discover your child has a hidden bible & wears a cross & worships cristianity ?.
would you decide to be tolorant ?
would you try to force your belief through some kind of threat ?.
if you could not convince your child to stop worshipping christianity what then ?
do your beliefs support honor killings ?
would you organise an honor killing out side the uk for your childs betrayal ?
please explain to us, what are you going to do if your worst posible nightmare where to come true ?
please dont say, ohh this will never happen, because it may indeed happen.
do you love your child enouph to say you would still love them as much as you do today even if they decided to worship judaism ?.

reply to post by pstrron

Finger printing without consent or knowledge of the parent is not acceptable and I would have cause to be upset. Though the core issue was in regards to the RE classes and being mostly Christian.

This was not the core issue, I thought I made myself quite clear, I have no objection to RE class as long as it's come from a completely unbiased stand point and discusses all types of religions not just the ones that happen to be trying to kill each other or believe they are the real deal.
So from that perspective multicultural education can be helpful or can hinder.
Native tribes of south America that worship the ju ju god Mr ptoatoe head, are not out dictate how I should live my life neither are they out to kill me should I choose not to believe what they believe, so their religion does not get a mention.

Likewise I find it very difficult to believe that a Muslim that just happens to be a teacher would go out of his/ her way to present an unbiased historical account od xtianity in order to inform my child about this so called culture.

What is at the core of the issue, is the fact that my child is being discriminated against for not choosing to be involved in the worship preferred deity of the teaching staff, which happens to be the jesusgod .

I don't know as yet which type of jesus god they prescribe to, whether its the Catholic version, pentecostal pagan or otherwise, this I don't care about.

I wonder if all the xtian apologist flaming me in this thread would have the same tact if they learned from their child that his/her teaching staff. Were Muslim clerics who just happen to be teachers and the child was regularly forced through fear of segregation to take part in the worship of Allah and readings from the Q'uran?

How happy would the xtian apologist be if they learned that the child was given the Q'uran along with school books etc and not let's say the bible or book of mormon, I'm sure they would be mighty pissed off.

So why is it do you think that in this case I the parent with no belief with a child that has not been "labeled" this or that don't have the same right to be mightily pissed off .

Originally posted by moocowman
Christianity you have now overstepped the mark and I now declare war upon you

Get in line...


(Witty and refreshing 2nd sentence)

reply to post by moocowman
I have also learned today much to my horror that, without any parental consent whatsoever, this school has been using Vericool biometric fingerprinting of my child.



Your not imply this is because of Christianity are you. Just a question.

reply to post by moocowman


as a christian, i would be concerned about what they were teaching no matter who they were. i'd want to know what they said, even if it was about jesus.

i don't think you're reasoning this all the way thru, however. let's say the child is in science class and the teacher is an atheist (that does happen ya know. one of the most famous atheists at the moment is a british scientist), for the rest of the science class, the child learns about an universe in which a God of any kind is not mentioned and in some cases, even referred to derogatorily.

so, i don't think the school is not going to give your child a healthy smorgasbord of beliefs and ideas to choose from.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by undo]

Ah yes... Christianity- the religion where "I'm right, you're wrong, and Not only will you go to hell- I will send you there myself".

Let me fill you in on Christians.....

I have been around them for a while- I chose to convert- because I truly believed. The short form is these people kill and eat the very ones they wound! they will belittle your problems, your person, your financial status, your lack of a love life ("You gotta marry Jesus first!") And have a genuine snake oil cure all for any and all ills- Not prayer, fasting, or the plethroa of things mentioned in the Bible- "just throw Jesus at it, and it'll be ALL better!" mention anything that falls within the realm of the Bible? (Witchcraft, demons, ect) That also falls outside of their little bubble- and they will suggest you need medication and therapy. I know this because I have a very real problem that has not only affected me terribly, but I have had to use my cats as a meter as to what happened to me the night before (very, very ugly/ realistic dreams all having the same exact theme).. And recently, when I have them ignore me 100%, and instead take up guard positions by my head, I know what kind of a night's sleep I will have.

I watch Christianity make untold BILLIONS- and where does it go? Fancy cars, fancy clothes, fancy houses, and meanwhile, the poor and the destitute stay that way. What really tweaks my nose is how a lot of these same poor, destitute people GIVE these bastards money and then hope for health, or a help with their finances, and getting NOTHING but more 'hope'. "Hope" doesn't put food on the table, help your sick child, or fix your problems, either. "Hope" never got me to the life I have tried for- a way to use all of my talents, find a good woman (or any woman... Christian women... hooo- there's another rant thread all it's own!), heal me, or take away this mess I have been dumped into.

And for the other side of the coin- there ARE and I stress ARE good Christians out there- but the numbers are so thin, I am going to guess less than 1% are truly good christian people who do exactly as advertised. Wanna know why?

MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANS KILL AND EAT THEM. They are trampled, screwed over, and left for dead on the side of the road of life. They are devoured the same way a spider eats a fly. *I* have experienced it firsthand. I know a couple others who have as well.

And the kicker? These people are the ones driving the nice cars, have the huge families, and cash pouring out every orifice. The rest of us..... *shakes head*

reply to post by cooler

it is your choice who you worship but what if this were to happen: in the future the indoctrination of your child into worshipping what you worship fails, & one day you discover your child has a hidden bible & wears a cross & worships cristianity ?. would you decide to be tolorant ?

Dude you really missed the point, I don't worship anything I have no religious belief.

When my children are mature adults they can worship what the hell they like that's up to them. Perhaps I may not like it that they choose to worship something but I don't try to stop them they are adults who have their own mind.

I don't have a belief so it's impossible for me to force a belief on my kids even if I wanted to, my kids are encouraged to make informed educated decisions based on as much information as possible.

Having someone telling my child that if they have to worship their god or be segregated is repugnant to me and flies in the face of reasonable inquiry that is already learned as a sensible approach by my kids.

When my children are grown up and have developed critical thinking skill it will be up to them to decide whether there is any validity to religions. That will be their decisions not my indoctrinations.

Example, well if you never been taught what religion is about then how can you teach them without openning the book first, that will be situation of the next generation, options will be limited on how the world works, R.E does that for you. They should teach how the world changed to the free world they live in now and largely its because Christianity broke the mould of tribal priest practices in the ancient days through faith in Christ having the priority to being saved over holy practices. Why does the UK have churches what is the history of the Christian faith and why has man followed jesus for so long, people have a right to know not to be told it does not exist.



[edit on 8-3-2009 by The time lord]

A child will be born tomorrow
As open as an empty cup
And we'll fill it with hope and sorrow
The very things that messed us up
We'll ask him to join the congregation
A hindu moslem christian or jew
Pretty soon he'll recognise his brothers
But soon he'll know the enemy too

Someone always hates someone
Someone always hates someone
Someone always buys a gun
Cos someone always hates someone

I died and I went to heaven in a dream
I never had before
A good friend who had gone before me
Had kindly left my name at the door
I looked on the face of the almighty
Couldn't help myself I started to shout
How come you made a mess of things
How come you didn't work it out

He said
Someone always hates someone
Someone always hates someone
There's so much love for everyone
But someone always hates someone

Human beings will always find something to hate and religion is the perfect excuse. Hate something enough and you will eventually become that which you hate.

To the OP. If you have a problem with what your child is being taught, then by all means do something about it, but please do yourself and humanity a favour, keep your hatred to yourself. It's not like this world needs anymore.

reply to post by wylekat


I trust you don't judge water by the quality of the cup holding it. Hypocrites don't reflect on the quality of Christ's teaching. He condemned them above all else.


Just to put the cat among the pigeons: I'm not keen on any religion being taught in schools. (What concerns me is someone having a specific aversion to children learning about what Christ taught.)

reply to post by moocowman

I can't blame you for being upset.
You have been lied to about everything pertaining to your daughters education.
Such is their ways.
The religious bottom feeders are real good at lies.
Goes to show you who is really running that show. The master of lies.
You know Christ was a real person. He didn't die on a cross and he wasn't the son of god.
He died in France and he was of the sun god.
That was a title obtained from the temple he studied in.
Don't you just love how things are twisted around to squeeze more money out of dumb asses.
They'll lie straight face to you with their hands in your pockets.
All this while claiming religious prosecution.
Same BS goes on in the States with the Blacks.
Ever notice how much more churches there are in the poor neighborhoods. You know why?
They prey on the weak and the weak minded.
Don't kid yourself about who's running the show.
Nothing has changed from day one.
The Roman Catholic Church.
They control it all. That's 1/3 the world's economy right there buddy.
Does that give you any clue as to how many idiots there actually are out there.
You need to get a lawyer and RAGman needs to just pull the string already and stop trying to be reborn.
Good luck with your case.
I hope you get Millions from the church.
Then you can retire and home school your kids.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by cooler

 

it is your choice who you worship but what if this were to happen: in the future the indoctrination of your child into worshipping what you worship fails, & one day you discover your child has a hidden bible & wears a cross & worships cristianity ?. would you decide to be tolorant ?

Dude you really missed the point, I don't worship anything I have no religious belief.

When my children are mature adults they can worship what the hell they like that's up to them. Perhaps I may not like it that they choose to worship something but I don't try to stop them they are adults who have their own mind.

I don't have a belief so it's impossible for me to force a belief on my kids even if I wanted to, my kids are encouraged to make informed educated decisions based on as much information as possible.

Having someone telling my child that if they have to worship their god or be segregated is repugnant to me and flies in the face of reasonable inquiry that is already learned as a sensible approach by my kids.

When my children are grown up and have developed critical thinking skill it will be up to them to decide whether there is any validity to religions. That will be their decisions not my indoctrinations.

when i was a child my parents did not follow any religion & never forced any religion on me, they just said i could make my own mind up when i was older. but in my school, at assembly all the children had to sing hyms from the bible, & there were christian classes, now as an adult i also dont follow any religion, so i guess the schools christian classes didnt brainwash me into any faith, so i dont see your arguement has much strength, & when you look at the uk majority, the christian church doesnt get much support in attedances, so this also shows that your fears against christianity are pretty unfounded.

reply to post by LeoPardus70


sun and son are two different words in egyptian hieroglyphs, both in glyph form and in translated form. they are not the same thing, don't even sound the same phonetically. et.al, these ideas are not related.

Hello, Moocowman, I don't blame you for being angry, I would too is our school was trying to force religion, any religion on my kids. Thankfully, I live in America, where freedom of religion is law,and for those who don't know what that means, it means ALL religions. My family are Wiccan, or something like that, my wife and I know all about Christianity, having had the church dogma forced down out throats as children. I too see them drive those fancy cars, and live in those fancy homes, and I often wonder just how much of the money gathered up actually goes to their God, because I see the preachers are taking most of it for themselves. I wish you well, and use the laws over there to force the issue, but get others on board too, don't go it alone. If I were you, I would take my child out, and place them in a school where religion isn't taught. Good luck.

I know how you feel although my kids were taught to make their own mind up about religion - I am agnoistic - and I will support them for their beliefs as long as it does not interfere with other people (including child indoctrination - which is the basis of the perpetuation of most religions). Their school beliefs/lessons were more balanced though.

I agree with you - if a school says secular then that's what it should mean.

Ironically, if you look at the census Agnostic and Aetheist is becoming far more popular in the UK - it was interesting how after a web campaign, that from the last census Jedi Knight came 4th - showing that there is a substantial lack of appetite for religion in the UK.

I was also interested in the christian posting that said when he saw anon believer it was like"watching a good friend running off the end of the cliff - you would want to save them." Funny that's how I feel when I see a christian.

reply to post by wylekat

And for the other side of the coin- there ARE and I stress ARE good Christians out there- but the numbers are so thin, I am going to guess less than 1% are truly good christian people who do exactly as advertised. Wanna know why?

Perhaps it should be worded, that there are good people that just happen to be Christians ?


thanks for your post I feel there's a lot more to what you've said so far .