reply to post by Supercertari
Thank you SC that was educational. Impressive for "off the cuff"!
OK Catholics....Convince me, page 3
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reply posted on 10-3-2009 @ 06:55 PM by VIKINGANT
reply to post by Hemisphere
Hi Hemisphere,
For the record, I am still very much with this thread. I have been enjoying the education. Thank you very much for your input, and everyone else as well.
I have been accused in the past of being a Catholic basher, but it is definately not the case. I am very curious, as are many others, about the history of the church (good and bad) as well as the 'mysteries' that surround it. I have found that this is a great place to get a wide variety of perspectives on the matter.
Yes, I do have a point of view, but presenting it while asking questions may bias the responses given. In posing the questions in a general (perhaps even vague) manner everyone is open to respond as they see appropriate giving more opportunity for discussion.
Again, thank you all for the entertainment and more importantly the education.
Hi Hemisphere,
For the record, I am still very much with this thread. I have been enjoying the education. Thank you very much for your input, and everyone else as well.
I have been accused in the past of being a Catholic basher, but it is definately not the case. I am very curious, as are many others, about the history of the church (good and bad) as well as the 'mysteries' that surround it. I have found that this is a great place to get a wide variety of perspectives on the matter.
Yes, I do have a point of view, but presenting it while asking questions may bias the responses given. In posing the questions in a general (perhaps even vague) manner everyone is open to respond as they see appropriate giving more opportunity for discussion.
Again, thank you all for the entertainment and more importantly the education.
reply posted on 10-3-2009 @ 07:08 PM by badmedia
reply to post by sezsue
The stuff you quote Paul as doing is exactly the opposite of what Jesus says to do. There are actual reasons why Jesus said not to do such things. So when Paul says these "teachers" and so forth, that is not the case. It is the formation of authority on earth when such authority is not of the father.
You push them off as little with no effect, but it's quite the opposite. These are manipulations.
I'm about to address some of that in my next post to SC, so you can read up there.
The stuff you quote Paul as doing is exactly the opposite of what Jesus says to do. There are actual reasons why Jesus said not to do such things. So when Paul says these "teachers" and so forth, that is not the case. It is the formation of authority on earth when such authority is not of the father.
You push them off as little with no effect, but it's quite the opposite. These are manipulations.
I'm about to address some of that in my next post to SC, so you can read up there.
reply posted on 10-3-2009 @ 07:15 PM by badmedia
reply to post by Supercertari
See, this is why I am against the catholic church, or any such organizations/authorities. People build up these authorities thinking they are good, doing so for what they view as good people, but then in reality you have just giving evil authority.
When Jesus tells the disciples not to make themselves leaders, not to call themselves teachers and not to do these things it is for that reason. Because you must realize when you create the authority and give that authority over, you are giving that authority to a man, who can do either good or bad things.
You can keep on dismissing the bad people and thats fine and well, but it is the system that allows such powers and authorities to exist in the first place that are the problem. If such were the actual fruits of the father, there would not be such evil.
See, this is why I am against the catholic church, or any such organizations/authorities. People build up these authorities thinking they are good, doing so for what they view as good people, but then in reality you have just giving evil authority.
When Jesus tells the disciples not to make themselves leaders, not to call themselves teachers and not to do these things it is for that reason. Because you must realize when you create the authority and give that authority over, you are giving that authority to a man, who can do either good or bad things.
You can keep on dismissing the bad people and thats fine and well, but it is the system that allows such powers and authorities to exist in the first place that are the problem. If such were the actual fruits of the father, there would not be such evil.
reply posted on 12-3-2009 @ 12:10 PM by badmedia
reply to post by Supercertari
It was not established by Christ, and I'd like for you to prove that. The only "church" Jesus talks about building is a church of wisdom, knowledge and understanding, not a physical church.
A physical church was called a synagogue back then, not a church. Just because you change the name from Church to synagogue doesn't change what it is. When you look at all the things the Pharisees did in their synagogues, you can find the same thing in the Catholic and other "churches".
Check, the church has a long history of bad works in the name of Jesus. But we should still do what they say, and remember who they praise and pretend to be rather than what they do. As with all such hypocrites.
Check. You are all sinners and you must carry out the burdens given by the church. This would be confession, doing hail mary's and so forth. All burdens put on the people to remind them - you are not good enough and can't better yourself without them.
Check. The church acts in a completely political way. Even with the ww2 pope stuff there is politics and a pope/church worried about public image. And they will not doubt carry around their scripture and they certainly wear garments to make themselves appear special.
Check again, they take the chief seats in the church. The leaders of the church in which Jesus says not to make yourselves into.
Check, Again only a change in the word itself. Rather than Rabbi it is preacher, cardinal, priest or pope.
But they do call themselves such names. But I know who the one master is, and I know better.
Except for Paul apparently, who pretends to be our father on earth and we are all just waiting to be "adopted" as sons of god. Well guess what. I was born a son of god and there is no such thing as being "adopted".
So you can change the names around and pretend they aren't the same things all you want. But a rose by any other name still smells the same, and these things carry out the same exact functions as the synagogues from Jesus.
It doesn't matter what you call such things, I will continue to look at the actions/fruits of such things and make my choices based on that. These things are plain to those that understand and have wisdom.
Or would you have me believe that Jesus would scorn the Jewish rabbi for his actions, and overlook the "priest" doing the same exact actions simply because he goes by another name?
[edit on 12-3-2009 by badmedia]
It was not established by Christ, and I'd like for you to prove that. The only "church" Jesus talks about building is a church of wisdom, knowledge and understanding, not a physical church.
A physical church was called a synagogue back then, not a church. Just because you change the name from Church to synagogue doesn't change what it is. When you look at all the things the Pharisees did in their synagogues, you can find the same thing in the Catholic and other "churches".
Matthew 23
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Check, the church has a long history of bad works in the name of Jesus. But we should still do what they say, and remember who they praise and pretend to be rather than what they do. As with all such hypocrites.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Check. You are all sinners and you must carry out the burdens given by the church. This would be confession, doing hail mary's and so forth. All burdens put on the people to remind them - you are not good enough and can't better yourself without them.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Check. The church acts in a completely political way. Even with the ww2 pope stuff there is politics and a pope/church worried about public image. And they will not doubt carry around their scripture and they certainly wear garments to make themselves appear special.
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Check again, they take the chief seats in the church. The leaders of the church in which Jesus says not to make yourselves into.
7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Check, Again only a change in the word itself. Rather than Rabbi it is preacher, cardinal, priest or pope.
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
But they do call themselves such names. But I know who the one master is, and I know better.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Except for Paul apparently, who pretends to be our father on earth and we are all just waiting to be "adopted" as sons of god. Well guess what. I was born a son of god and there is no such thing as being "adopted".
So you can change the names around and pretend they aren't the same things all you want. But a rose by any other name still smells the same, and these things carry out the same exact functions as the synagogues from Jesus.
Proverbs 8
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
It doesn't matter what you call such things, I will continue to look at the actions/fruits of such things and make my choices based on that. These things are plain to those that understand and have wisdom.
Or would you have me believe that Jesus would scorn the Jewish rabbi for his actions, and overlook the "priest" doing the same exact actions simply because he goes by another name?
[edit on 12-3-2009 by badmedia]
reply posted on 12-3-2009 @ 05:31 PM by Supercertari
Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Supercertari
It was not established by Christ, and I'd like for you to prove that. The only "church" Jesus talks about building is a church of wisdom, knowledge and understanding, not a physical church.
A physical church was called a synagogue back then, not a church. Just because you change the name from Church to synagogue doesn't change what it is. When you look at all the things the Pharisees did in their synagogues, you can find the same thing in the Catholic and other "churches".
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a building it is the Church as the ecclesiastical community and mystical body of Christ which exists above and beyond temporal and spatial boundaries.
For “proof” of Christ’s establishment of the Church I need only refer you to Matthew 16: 18-19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 23 is indeed an interesting and challenging passage for all those who continue in the commissioning of Peter and the apostles in the Church. Of note is that Christ does not condemn the burden, nor even those who “impose” the burden but their refusal to help in the carrying of it. This has, perhaps is, a continuing problem among some of the ministers of the Church who do not allow compassion and proper spiritual training of the people to accompany the imposition of those burdens which are essential in the Christian life and the constant struggle against sin and concupiscence.
The marvel of Calvary is that indeed none of us is worthy and at the same time no human being is excluded from the merits of Christ’s death and resurrection. Like all gifts, graces, it depends on the recipient whether they employ that freely given to them. To correctly employ such graces does of course require at times correction, at other times encouragement and at all times direction something which the Church provides in the deposit of faith and through the sensus fidelium.
The Church, as a communion of people concerned with the oppressed and downtrodden must be “political” without being partisan. Thee “WW2 pope stuff” was not concern about public image but rather concern about the safety of its own members and the members of other communities, particularly the Jewish Community.
Where the chief seats, etc. is concerned, it is not these which Christ condemns but rather those who seek them not for service of the community and God but in service to their own desires, ambitions and sense of self importance. The apostolic Church Christ founded, with the hierarchical structure He established means there will be “higher seats”, the motives of those who are called to occupy them must be carefully examined by them to ensure they do so not for self-gain but for service. Have all done this – no, but that does not mean we take away the chairs Christ Himself established.
As for titles, no man called “Father” imagines that he thus replaces “Our Father”, no person called teacher imagines s/he replaces the one “Way, Truth and Life.” If the titles given to such people has any significance it is principally for the bearer to remind them constantly that they do not exercise their ministry in their own name but in service of the people of God.
In baptism all Christians are imparted with the grace of sharing in the threefold ministry of Christ as priest, prophet and king – to sanctify, announce and lead: characteristics which involve, leadership, correction, encouragement and leadership – characteristics which Christ did not warn against, His warnings were against those then, and now, who misuse them. Christ did not condemn the rabbi for the things he did but the manner in which he did them, the same is true for those priests/ministers/etc. of today who are motivated not by compassion and love of Christ but by their own self-aggrandisement.
As for your problem with Paul, well what can I say – you are determined in your beliefs, not for the sake of being awkward but because you truly believe these things and the veil into your soul is not one which I can cross but I pray that the Lord may, as He did on Good Friday, tear asunder that veil and open your heart to the Father’s will and the full community of the faithful in the Church which He established.
reply posted on 12-3-2009 @ 07:17 PM by VIKINGANT
Originally posted by Supercertari
Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Supercertari
It was not established by Christ, and I'd like for you to prove that. The only "church" Jesus talks about building is a church of wisdom, knowledge and understanding, not a physical church.
A physical church was called a synagogue back then, not a church. Just because you change the name from Church to synagogue doesn't change what it is. When you look at all the things the Pharisees did in their synagogues, you can find the same thing in the Catholic and other "churches".
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a building it is the Church as the ecclesiastical community and mystical body of Christ which exists above and beyond temporal and spatial boundaries.
Lets stop and breath for a moment...this here is exactly where many misunderstandings come from.
Yes..Jesus established the foundations of modern Christianity and the basis of 'the Church' but to say he established the 'Catholic Church' is ridiculous. Small c catholic with the definition of universal maybe but it is the Roman Catholic Church that is in question here. A very different entity my friend.
reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 05:36 AM by VIKINGANT
reply to post by Supercertari
So based on your argument all christians are responsible for and should be accused of the various conspiracies, cover ups and controversy in general.
Sure various 'branches' of christianity (Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans etc) use the term 'catholic church' in the context as you have described. However, when discussing the crusades, inquisitions, the hiding or destruction of original scriptures and what not, it is as I said earlier, the Roman Catholic Church as an organisation not christians as a whole.
Furthermore, the institution of the RCC as it is known today was NOT founded by Christ or any of his followers.
To take the conspirital angle a little further, you could argue that Peter was the founder and was instructed by Christ, but who is to say this was not yet another addition to the scriptures to justify thier position in world history?
So based on your argument all christians are responsible for and should be accused of the various conspiracies, cover ups and controversy in general.
Sure various 'branches' of christianity (Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans etc) use the term 'catholic church' in the context as you have described. However, when discussing the crusades, inquisitions, the hiding or destruction of original scriptures and what not, it is as I said earlier, the Roman Catholic Church as an organisation not christians as a whole.
Furthermore, the institution of the RCC as it is known today was NOT founded by Christ or any of his followers.
To take the conspirital angle a little further, you could argue that Peter was the founder and was instructed by Christ, but who is to say this was not yet another addition to the scriptures to justify thier position in world history?
reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 06:03 AM by Supercertari
Originally posted by VIKINGANT
reply to post by Supercertari
Sure various 'branches' of christianity (Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans etc) use the term 'catholic church' in the context as you have described. However, when discussing the crusades, inquisitions, the hiding or destruction of original scriptures and what not, it is as I said earlier, the Roman Catholic Church as an organisation not christians as a whole.
Furthermore, the institution of the RCC as it is known today was NOT founded by Christ or any of his followers.
To take the conspirital angle a little further, you could argue that Peter was the founder and was instructed by Christ, but who is to say this was not yet another addition to the scriptures to justify thier position in world history?
The hiding or destruction of original scriptures is an absolutely foundless "received wisom" among conspirators which has no basis in historical fact. It amuses me greatly to see the Coucil of Nicea and Constantine brought up in this regard, but worries me that so many people having heard of it accpet it without doing their own research. For a summary of the issue, using historical documents and analysis please refer here. Not as the final word but as a resource to delve into the sources yourself.
The Crusades and Inquisition are more examples of "received wisdom" being an exagerration of the facts in histories written by, guess who, the anglo-saxon protestant ascendency. There were Crusades: were they unprovoked invasions of a foreign land, no: did they become politicised by European powers such as Venice, yes. The Inquisition saw many more excused of the accusations levelled against them than convicted and of those conviceted a minimal number were executed. Was the Inquisition politicised, again, clearly and absolutely yes. Many confuse the Spanish Inquisition with the old Vatican office of the Inquisition, which was, as the name freed from the connotations attached to it, suggests an institution of enquiry.
The problem with conspiracies is that there is often no point trying to convince anyone otherwise because conspiracies are often like the old image of the world as turtles all the way down. When evidence is presented it was manufactured by the conspirators, etc., etc. If you have no trust in the Canon of Scripture then really, as with those who choose to ignore Paul, you may as well stand arguing with your microwave and telling it it can't actually heat up your food. Without Scripture and the deposit of faith as handed onto us there is nothing. Some choose to accept that and face into the abyss I choose to believe these things and freely submit my will to the sensus fidelium which is a better assurance than the imaginings I might invent myself or glean from those who see conspiracy everywhere.
reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 06:21 AM by BostonBill99
reply to post by munkey66
We don't pray to The Blessed Mother, we ask her to pray for us. The same situation applies to the Saints. We do not pray to them, we ask them to pray for us.
They intercede for us, the same way you might pray to God for a friend or family member that is in need.
We don't pray to The Blessed Mother, we ask her to pray for us. The same situation applies to the Saints. We do not pray to them, we ask them to pray for us.
They intercede for us, the same way you might pray to God for a friend or family member that is in need.
reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 06:33 AM by VIKINGANT
First of all....Nice avoidance on the difference between RCC and general Christian population...
This was just a forinstance of claims made against the church, but I do see what you are saying here.
I am guessing the holocaust was misreprisented and blown way out of proportion as well?
OK...so on one hand we have Mary and the saints pray for ourselves...yet on the other you say we do indeed have a direct line to god afterall!?!?!?!
This is what I cant fathom. If we can talk to God directly then the saints are out of a job.
[edit on 13/3/2009 by VIKINGANT]
Originally posted by Supercertari
The hiding or destruction of original scriptures is an absolutely foundless "received wisom" among conspirators which has no basis in historical fact.
This was just a forinstance of claims made against the church, but I do see what you are saying here.
The Crusades and Inquisition are more examples of "received wisdom" being an exagerration of the facts in histories written by, guess who, the anglo-saxon protestant ascendency. There were Crusades: were they unprovoked invasions of a foreign land, no: did they become politicised by European powers such as Venice, yes. The Inquisition saw many more excused of the accusations levelled against them than convicted and of those conviceted a minimal number were executed. Was the Inquisition politicised, again, clearly and absolutely yes. Many confuse the Spanish Inquisition with the old Vatican office of the Inquisition, which was, as the name freed from the connotations attached to it, suggests an institution of enquiry.
I am guessing the holocaust was misreprisented and blown way out of proportion as well?
Originally posted by BostonBill99
reply to post by munkey66
We don't pray to The Blessed Mother, we ask her to pray for us. The same situation applies to the Saints. We do not pray to them, we ask them to pray for us.
They intercede for us, the same way you might pray to God for a friend or family member that is in need.
OK...so on one hand we have Mary and the saints pray for ourselves...yet on the other you say we do indeed have a direct line to god afterall!?!?!?!
This is what I cant fathom. If we can talk to God directly then the saints are out of a job.
[edit on 13/3/2009 by VIKINGANT]
reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 01:51 PM by Supercertari
Originally posted by VIKINGANT
First of all....Nice avoidance on the difference between RCC and general Christian population...
Well I hoped, or presumed, I did not have to restate my position on the Eastern or Western Schism. I would concur with the Curch's teaching that all Christians are to a greater or lesser extent members of the Church, I will quote hte summary of the deposit of faith, the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this issue:
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
CCC 838
The whole page might be worth having a look at if you feel so inclined.
I am guessing the holocaust was misreprisented and blown way out of proportion as well?
I would avoid guessing if I were you. There are some conspiracy theories against Judaism, which like those against Catholicism, depend on rhetoric and received wisdom rather than historical evidence. The Shoa was not Catholicism or Christianity's doing it was a godless, athiestic, nationalist and nihilist assault which was focussed on, but not exclusively committed against, the children of Abraham.
What if all the major religions started out with the same story and it slowly diverged from there
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