Your neighbor doesn't owe you a dime

Is the OP calling our banking system bums? I'm scandalized! Doesn't he realize those guys need a break?

reply to post by rizla


If you think I agree with bank bailouts you are sorely mistaken. I hate what has been done. I've been against all bailouts since the very beginning. Ask anyone who knows or follows my posts/threads.

After all, it's our money. Yours, mine, everyones. I've bashed all of the bailouts.

If you think that giving money to the banks justifies taking even more for yourself from others then you are mistaken.

If people don't start realizing their own faults then we will never fix this country. I know the faults of the government and big business...but we all seem to ignore it...at least to the point where we do nothing about it.

After all, why not take a piece of the pie ourselves? Let's just ignore the fact that we are eating OUR OWN PIE.

Yes, I see what you mean. Entitlement is a slippery slope. It gives people this false image of themselves and their government. The task you demand is GREAT in porportion. It is directly related to the nessecary shift away from materialism. Entitlement and materialism are both lies propogated by the same force, and they are thumbs we are under. To ask youself to break free is demanding on its own. To ask others to set these ideas aside is to ask society to change, and that usually occurs only through a new paradigm. (Collective v. individualistic).

Our neighbors don't owe us a dime, but what do we owe them, if we participate in a shift away from entitlement and materialism?

reply to post by Torsion girl


I don't know. I don't know if it's really about materialism. I think it's more about ourselves. It's our own self worth and trust in ourselves that makes us great. With everything that is happening right now...it just seems to be lost.

I know it's still there. It has to be....but when will people release it? When will we get by our entitlement?

I don't care how much I have...others may...but I don't. Isn't the whole point of living...to create life and hope that your offspring will be a better person and have better opportunities than you had?

We've lost this....but I know that people still have it in themselves.

David , you seem to question the heart of the people , the people didnt do nothing wrong but believe in the American Dream.

reply to post by David9176


On one hand I agree with you. However, you forget that "I" too, have been sucked dry for taxes left and right, and have paid them faithfully since the day I started working. While I'm not one of those who are pacing the floor waiting for a handout, I am sick and tired of the AMOUNT of money we have worked hard to pay our corrupt government, who spends it without a care in the world, while I watch various friends losing homes, jobs, etc., who ALSO paid thousands and thousands in taxes. We are honest people, but do I think I can better spend that money than having it spent on astronomy in HI, or Business Centers, or history museums, or the the smell of pig pooh, or the mating rituals of bears? You betcha!! It makes me sick.

Meanwhile, we've just done our taxes, and we're getting back LESS than we ever have before....while we are cutting back on things like cell phones, going back to basic cable (and perhaps even cutting it out all together), and various other things, I get angered when I hear of the extravagant parties being held at the White House. People are living in tents, losing homes, and wondering how they will feed their families....but not Obama. He seems to care more about who will sing at his next Wednesday "house party", making sure the country knows his musical tastes. Who gives a crap about what kind of dog they buy, when people are being forced to relinquish their livestock and family pets because they can no longer afford to feed them? Who gives a crap about brand names and what Michelle is wearing or what she dresses her girls in, when hundreds of thousands of people are scraping up money just to get basics at the local Walmart? Whose money is he partying on? He can't seem to get foreign diplomats thought-provoking gifts to promote good foreign relations, but he and his wife sure can live it up on the back of the tax-payers.

The price of the innaugural parade is what kicked this off....at least in the last depression, we had a president with enough common sense to realize that celebrating with tax-payer's dollars in hard times wouldn't exactly be a wise move.

I'm off my soap box now....thanks for the vent!

reply to post by branty

David , you seem to question the heart of the people , the people didnt do nothing wrong but believe in the American Dream.

I didn't do anything wrong either. I didn't run up credit cards. I didn't buy a house I knew I couldn't afford and I'm not expecting other taxpayers to take care of me.

I'm not questioning the heart of people...i'm questioning their strength.

I'm questioning their will.

You cannot complain about bank bailouts when you are willing to do the same. Bank bailouts are flat out wrong obviously but does that justify being on the take ourselves? Everyone seems to be on the take. The problem is there is no money TO TAKE. We are taking money that doesn't even exist.

Does the current administration's spending spree justify the last administration fiscal irresponsibility?

No.....then why are we supporting it?

Atlas Shrugged...

Who is John Galt?

David, you know where I am coming from

In the Centennial Edition of "Anthem", Ayn Rand has a foreword. I am transcribing part of it here...

I shall merely point out that the slogan "Production for use and not for profit" is now accepted by most men as commonplace, and a commonplace stating a proper, desirable goal. If any intelligible meaning can be discerned in that slogan at all, what is it, if no the idea that the motive of a man's work must be the needs of others, not his own need, desire or gain?

Compulsory labor conscription is now practiced or advocated in every country on earth. What is it based on, if not the idea that the state is best qualified to decide where a man can be useful to others, such usefulness being the only consideration, and that his own aims, desires or happiness should be ignored as of no importance?

We have Councils of Vocations, Councils of Eugenics, every possible kind of Council, including a World Council - and if these do not as yet hold total power over us, is it from lack of intention?

"Social gains," "social aims," "Social objectives" have become the daily bromides of our language. The necessity of a social justification for all activities and all existence is now taken for granted. There is no proposal outrageous enough but what its author can get a respectful hearing and approbation if he claims that in some undefined way it is for "the common good."

Some might think - -though I don't know - that nine years ago there was some excuse for men to not see the direction in which the world was going. Today, the evidence is so blatant that no excuse can be claimed by anyone any longer. Those who refuse to see it now are neither blind nor innocent.

The greatest guilt today is that of people who accept collectivism by moral default; the people who seek protection from the necessity of taking a stand, by refusing to admit to themselves that nature of that which they are accepting; the people who support plans specifically designed to achieve serfdom, but hide behind the empty assertion that they are lovers of freedom, with no concrete meaning attached to the word; the people who believe that the content of ideas need not be examined, that principles need not be defined, and that facts can be eliminated by keeping one's eyes shut. They expect, when they find themselves in a world of bloody ruins and concentration camps, to escape moral responsibility by wailing: "But I didn't mean this!"

Thos who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead.

They must face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

I think she did a good job of saying everything I could

reply to post by David9176


ok, but you seem to be getting angry at us , your fellow ATS.ers, you should be angry at the Politicans


edit; wheres my beck fix, i dont get him on my telly

reply to post by emeraldzeus

On one hand I agree with you. However, you forget that "I" too, have been sucked dry for taxes left and right, and have paid them faithfully since the day I started working. While I'm not one of those who are pacing the floor waiting for a handout, I am sick and tired of the AMOUNT of money we have worked hard to pay our corrupt government, who spends it without a care in the world, while I watch various friends losing homes, jobs, etc., who ALSO paid thousands and thousands in taxes. We are honest people, but do I think I can better spend that money than having it spent on astronomy in HI, or Business Centers, or history museums, or the the smell of pig pooh, or the mating rituals of bears? You betcha!! It makes me sick.

I am angry too about what our government has done....with OUR money. Yours and mine, our hard earned money that we busted our asses for to provide for our families, gets spent and taken from every one of us to be spent on BS policies and agenda our government has.

Believe me i know your anger. The fact that this country is in a tailspin...as I...like you...may have done nothing to deserve what has happened.

So much of OUR money is wasted....just completely thrown away...for things we don't even know about or don't approve of. There is no transparency...no accountability.

The people make this country great....not the government.

You and I make this country what it is.

So what is our country right now?

What have we become?

reply to post by branty

ok, but you seem to be getting angry at us , your fellow ATS.ers, you should be angry at the Politicans

I'm not showing anger...at least I hope people aren't thinking that.

The question is..

How can we expect accountability from everyone else when we don't even expect it from ourselves?

[edit on 6-3-2009 by David9176]

reply to post by David9176

My freind , read your reply post ,your preaching to the choir, I see for the most part that people here are in agreement with you, frustration is everywhere , answers are not

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by emeraldzeus

 

I am angry too about what our government has done....with OUR money.

Where the hell were you when Uncle Ray-Gun ballooned the deficit.

Where was all your anger when Little Boots Bush ballooned the deficit to sky high proportions spending a trillion dollars a year in Iraq for a bs cause.

Where were you when HIS Administration let Wall Street run buck wild?

Where were you then?

Now you are bitching about 768 paultry billion to help try to fix this mess with infrastructure jobs that are needed anyway? or loans to start a new green economy that can PRODUCE things to sell to other countries?

Give me a freaking break with all this my neighbor ruined this country crap. The bankers, Wall Street thugs and White House suck off who pandered to their oil and military industrial complex buddies caused this mess.

Not Joe schmo working two jobs making ends meet to afford a house.



[edit on 6-3-2009 by AllexxisF1]

reply to post by AllexxisF1

Where the hell were you when Uncle Ray-Gun ballooned the deficit.

Where many other people were at...at the time. I didn't pay attention. I didn't start following politics till about 6 months ago. If you want to hate on me for not paying attention...that's fine...but don't act like i was a supporter of George Bush..as I most certainly was not.

Now you are bitching about 768 paultry billion to help try to fix this mess with infrastructure jobs that are needed anyway? or loans to start a new green economy that can PRODUCE things to sell to other countries?

Where is this money going to come from? Tell me. 768 BILLION is hardly paultry btw. Much more is being spent than that anyway.

Don't you get it? We don't have money. As soon as China quits buying our debt...the whole country is screwed. And it WILL happen...because we can't stop spending.

Give me a freaking break with all this my neighbor ruined this country crap.

The mortgage crisis caused this...and it's a direct result of government, business...and people buying homes they couldn't afford. Face it.

Not Joe schmo working two jobs making ends meet to afford a house.

Where am I criticizing someone working two jobs to keep a house? Look at the facts!!!

THERE IS NO MONEY!!!

Get over your hate for everything and everyone and realize THERE IS NO MONEY.

Cripes.

Originally posted by emeraldzeus
Meanwhile, we've just done our taxes, and we're getting back LESS than we ever have before....

Well, that's good, that means you didn't overpay your taxes as much as you did in previous years. If you were financially savvy, you should be underpaying your taxes throughout the year and end up owing the government at the end of the year.

In so far as the OP, a lot of our social problems today are related to COVETING! Today, if someone doesn't have a television, or computer, or iPod, they tend to consider themselves underprivileged and disadvantaged and poor and unhappy and unequal to those that have those things. DISGUSTING MINDSET. It's called coveting. All these people that bitch about the rich, the successful, are actually practicing coveting. I myself couldn't care any less what my neighbors have. I don't have a television, nor iPod .. but, unlike my neighbors, I have a 16 month emergency fund reserve in the bank (in addition to a respectable retirement account), and NO DEBT what so ever .. and THAT is what makes ME happy, as opposed to my neighbor who apparently loves his big screen teevee and iPod .. and his $40,000+ worth of credit card debt, ha (stupid neighbor, ha, no wonder he has trouble sleeping at night and worries all the time, he a financial idiot and major coveter, ha).

STOP COVETING people, it's shameful and immature, and a sin if you are a religious make-believer. Stop ragging on those that have what you don't and just be happy with the best you can do. THAT is what should make you proud and respectable .. to be a non-coveting non-crybaby adult, lol.

reply to post by Divinorumus


to be honest , it just sounds like your gloating, 1 am glad you are in a position to look down at you neighbour, you must feel good about yourself

Actually it goes far deeper than the housing/credit crisis. The problem is business practices that are just completely wrong (and wrong-headed).

I have had a variety of jobs over the years. Built networks in doctor's offices from the ground up, transfered their existing systems from old IBM servers and dummy terminals to modern standards, link satellite offices via VPN to the main office. I specialized in hardware repairs. Experience means little when interview after interview found me passed over for an art student with a degree in basket weaving or something.

I have ran a restaurant in the past. Was hired as a cashier barely qualified enough to order from the menu a few weeks before it opened. Not only did I eventually do everything a manager would do, I handled the prep cook work as well and drew a salary. In time, the owners considered opening a sports bar with me as a full partner. I had no money for the investment but was told I would earn my equal share by running it so they didn't have to about running it along with the other two restaurants. Think I stand a chance against a BA of philosophy for a floor supervisor in a small factory?

Don't get me wrong. A college education is great. It demonstrates the ability to deal with needless steps in order to achieve a goal for one thing. A willingness to play the game for another. And yes, I have had some college. And I have learned some thing from that experience both educational and practical. But the reality is that not very many jobs do require a college education in order to perform them well. Case and point, had I done a 4 and out after high school it would have been 1993. We no longer use token ring networks, Microsoft Vista/XP has little to do with Windows 3.11 for Workgroups in operation or troubleshooting.

For centuries mankind has done well via apprenticeships and mentoring for various jobs yet for some reason we now need a degree in hotel/restaurant management to do inventory, order supplies, total up time cards and check to make sure the janitors (environmental service workers) are running the vacuum cleaner right?

As a stereotype, lawyers are not known for their philanthropy nor intelligence outside of law, yet we continue to elect them. For that my neighbor owes me more than a dime. He needs to turn around and bend over a bit; so I can give him a swift kick in the butt to straighten him out.

Originally posted by branty
reply to post by Divinorumus

 

to be honest , it just sounds like your gloating, 1 am glad you are in a position to look down at you neighbour, you must feel good about yourself

I do feel good about myself .. it was difficult, but I did the right thing. It is not a shameful thing to be proud of ones accomplishments and self-determination and self-responsibility and self-control and self-respect. And, I don't look down upon my neighbor .. I'm laughing at him!

One way we can fix all this is to eliminate CONSUMER CREDIT!!! People should EARN what they want FIRST .. not the other way around. And, it's stupid stupid stupid to buy something on credit and pay a lot more for something one couldn't afford in the first dang place.

Yup, I'm not looking down .. I'm LMFAO!

reply to post by David9176

The mortgage crisis caused this...and it's a direct result of government, business...and people buying homes they couldn't afford. Face it.

Must I point out how terribly naive that is?

Seriously though, can't we just close this thread down and add to one of your other (eerily similar) rants ------------> I lost it at work today

Originally posted by Divinorumus

I do feel good about myself .. it was difficult, but I did the right thing. It is not a shameful thing to be proud of ones accomplishments and self-determination and self-responsibility and self-control and self-respect. And, I don't look down upon my neighbor .. I'm laughing at him!

One way we can fix all this is to eliminate CONSUMER CREDIT!!! People should EARN what they want FIRST .. not the other way around. And, it's stupid stupid stupid to buy something on credit and pay a lot more for something one couldn't afford in the first dang place.

Yup, I'm not looking down .. I'm LMFAO!

Well if we eliminate consumer credit the US would not have an economy. Our economy runs on debt. We don't make anything anymore, that's been off shored to China and India and others.

The idea of no government involvement in times of economic crisis is naive. We've tried that before (Hoover). I'm not saying that the government should be the source of our salvation, but they should be there to help us when we need it. I am currently employed, and I have enough savings to live for 5 months if I were to lose my job. After that, I'd have to turn to the government for help. And as much as I like to think I wouldn't lose my job, I work in a field that could be easily offshored to India.

The problem with the OP's post is that you are only thinking in black and white and not in shades of gray. There is a time and place for government spending and stimulus. Right now is one of those times. In the 90's when unemployment was low, that was the time for the Fed to tighten its belt and get leaner, which it did. But at the same time, regulation and oversight were loosened which caused most of the mess we are in. The problem we are having is not because we have "too much government" but because the government trusted private industry to self-regulate.

Not to mention that many of our taxpayer dollars are wasted by outsourcing government jobs to private industry. Take the IRS for example, during the Bush administration they outsourced collections for backed taxes to for profit private firms. It was a failure. They did not increase collections of taxes and also violated the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. By bringing that back to the government, the government is expected to save millions over just a couple of years. Here is an article. That is one example, but I could think of many examples where private industry has cost the tax payer more money. But Hey that's Capitalism.

There is a purpose for government. There is a time for government spending. Right now is the time. I would far rather have this money used for buiding the infrustructure in our country than to be used to fund the "war machine".

I find it strange that many who oppose government funds to build do not see anything wrong with the amount of money we use each year to blow things up.

Just my two cents.


[edit on 7-3-2009 by its bologna]