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Healthcare is 'a privilege...not a right': GOP lawmaker

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posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by 44soulslayer
I agree with this man.

Rights only exist so long as the method of enforcing that right does not conflict with the natural rights of any other person.

For example, everyone has a right to free will and do whatever they want. However, if they "want" to kill someone else, then they cannot as it interferes with the other person's right to life.

So how does socialized healthcare come into this? Well to provide a "right to healthcare", the government would have to tax other people. Taxes take away money from others, therefore infringing their natural property rights.

To make money requires effort and time, and time is a measure of how long a person has spent of their life. Therefore if you take away someone's property that they have worked for, you are taking away a part of their life. This is why theft and taxes are tantamount to fractional murder.

The "right" to healthcare cannot be enforced without committing fractional murder on some other person (ie the rich man), therefore it should be unenforceable, and therefore doesn't exist.


Thank you for saving me the time and effort in formulating a reply to this thread


I could not have stated such a case in more certain terms myself.




posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by Aaron_Justin
reply to post by GrayFox
 


This is the first I hear about the rest of the world being ashamed of us for our healthcare system. I think we have some of the best medical services in the world. Do you have any sources as to stories of people that cannot bare the thought of us due to the shame that our medical system has caused?


You can't be serious. Our actual care might be good, but they (almost anyone from another country, with very few exceptions) all think the system itself is shameful. Just about everyone I talk to outside the US can't believe how it is here!



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by Aaron_Justin
This is another post similar to the one I just responded to. Do not act like if you cannot afford treatment you have to just sit in your recliner and die. There are venues out there for people that cannot afford healthcare.


Whether I get sick with a minor ailment, or require a CAT scan or radiotherapy for something more serious, I know I can walk into ANY hospital or GP surgery and recieve treatment and not have to reach for my wallet, for the simple reason that I've been more than happy to pay a bit extra in National Insurance taxes to cover such an emergency

If you're happy paying through the nose for medical insurance for over-inflated pharmaceutical prices whilst looking down at those that can't afford such costs as some form of second-class citizen, then good for you, it just demobstrates the selfish blinkered 'I'm alright jack' attitude that is now become the real American social mentality

Hell, why not call for 'law enforcement insurance' and 'fire brigade insurance' too..not insured and you have a house fire? sorry, we won't do anything to stop your property burning down until you write a cheque..




posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by Aaron_Justin
 


here is what the emergency room will do for you if you break a bone...
they might offer you pain medication...they didn't me, I had to ask for it..
they will put an emergency splint on it.....they will refer you to a specialist so the bone can be reset!
that is it!!
try again!!!
like I said, the specialist wanted $2,000 downpayment before he would consider the operation, I had been unemployed for awhile before that (because, like I said....the broken ankle was a result of a problem that existed in before I broke it), our family's bills were less that what the gov't were paying the single moms, we were living on $30 a week in groceries matter of fact, a few days before i broke it I had walked (llimped)about 7 miles into town looking for a job because the insurance on the second vehicle had to be dropped, and there was no help!! once you considered what they took out in taxes, we did not have the resources that would even come close to what the government was given away!

so try again, because I know this isn't true!
it took the intercession of a state legislature to convince this doctor to do the operation.. otherwise, well, I probably would still be unemployed and using crutches..unless of course, well, the leg became infected or something, I have no idea what happens to untreated broken bones!



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by TheAgentNineteen
 


It is not just the "rich" people that have to pay for the people without insurance, its the average joes that make a decent living, and already getting hammered on taxes that will have to also foot the bill for someone else.

Imagine how many more people will get on board with universal healthcare for a free ride. People will be going in for a visit to get a hang nail checked out. Why not right, its not like it will cost anything out of that person's pocket! Smile, your poor! Come get your free #!



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
I agree with this man.

Rights only exist so long as the method of enforcing that right does not conflict with the natural rights of any other person.

For example, everyone has a right to free will and do whatever they want. However, if they "want" to kill someone else, then they cannot as it interferes with the other person's right to life.

So how does socialized healthcare come into this? Well to provide a "right to healthcare", the government would have to tax other people. Taxes take away money from others, therefore infringing their natural property rights.

To make money requires effort and time, and time is a measure of how long a person has spent of their life. Therefore if you take away someone's property that they have worked for, you are taking away a part of their life. This is why theft and taxes are tantamount to fractional murder.

The "right" to healthcare cannot be enforced without committing fractional murder on some other person (ie the rich man), therefore it should be unenforceable, and therefore doesn't exist.


Thank you for saving me the time and effort in formulating a reply to this thread


I could not have stated such a case in more certain terms myself.




Then my response goes to you as well:
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by GrayFox
 


So you have taken a poll by the majority of the people that do not live in the US and know for fact that that is how they feel? I doubt that. If you are talking to people that do not live in the US they have not been through our medical system and will not have anything to base their opinions on.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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The rights the Rep is talking about are constitutional rights, and healthcare is not a part of those rights, and so healthcare is only a privilege. Rights are free to all Americans, but privileges are not guaranteed to be free, and that is a big part of the difference in the two.

So maybe this should be a state level constitutional right that is voted on by each state, by the people of that state…



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by citizen smith
 


I do not look down on anyone or consider myself first class or any of that. In fact, I work in the oilfield and get dirty all evening after going to school all morning. I live paycheck to paycheck. I do not want another mouth to feed ie universal healthcare taxing more out of me to pay for someone else. Call that selfish if you will, but I pay my taxes so im chipping into all the socialist programs already in effect.

I love how people that champion these socialist positions feel as though they can be so condescending to those of us that are not on board. There was also a time when I did not have health insurance and had to have some medical work done. I paid monthly payments and made it happen.

I totally agree that the current system is flawwed and we need to do something to get the costs down, but making it universal will raise costs. Think of the influx of patients going for asinine reasons. People will go for silly things they could have just toughed out. Universal Healthcare is a fallacy. Its Robin hood meets ER.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Aaron_Justin
reply to post by TheAgentNineteen
 


It is not just the "rich" people that have to pay for the people without insurance, its the average joes that make a decent living, and already getting hammered on taxes that will have to also foot the bill for someone else.

Imagine how many more people will get on board with universal healthcare for a free ride. People will be going in for a visit to get a hang nail checked out. Why not right, its not like it will cost anything out of that person's pocket! Smile, your poor! Come get your free #!


Its not just the rich paying for it your right because Im not rich and I pay for other peoples insurance right now including illegal immigrants and nothing gets done. My tax dollars are also going to subsidize these wealthy people that agentnineteen is crying about being taxed. The fact is if your really poor or really rich u have health insurance. The middle class like me is stuck paying the high fees and paying for others both rich and poor. Its disgusting and no one has attempted to address this issue.

As far as people going in for a hangnail have you been to an emergency room lately? Its already that way. My son fell and cracked his head and we had to wait 3 hours in the ER to get stitches. So I say its time for the middle class to get theirs I used to not be this way until the past year when I have seen $8 trillion dollars go to the banks. Im sick of the welfare.....for the rich and for the poor and nothing for the middle class.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
The fact is if your really poor or really rich u have health insurance.


Incorrect, countless millions of working families don't have health insurance. Please correct your "facts".
www.boston.com...



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by Leto

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
The fact is if your really poor or really rich u have health insurance.


Incorrect, countless millions of working families don't have health insurance. Please correct your "facts".
www.boston.com...


Ill repeat what I said If your really poor or really rich you have health insurance. The really poor get it from the government and the rich can afford it. You might want to "reread" what Im typing because what I say is "fact" and anyone who is really poor who doesnt have government backed insurance does it because they dont want it. Its the working class who get screwed which is what I said which coincides with your article.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost

Originally posted by Leto

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
The fact is if your really poor or really rich u have health insurance.


Incorrect, countless millions of working families don't have health insurance. Please correct your "facts".
www.boston.com...


Ill repeat what I said If your really poor or really rich you have health insurance. The really poor get it from the government and the rich can afford it. You might want to "reread" what Im typing because what I say is "fact" and anyone who is really poor who doesnt have government backed insurance does it because they dont want it. Its the working class who get screwed which is what I said which coincides with your article.


My mystake.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by citizen smith
 



The problem with the cost of healthcare in the US is because the whole idea of competition has been taken out of the equation. People cannot personally pick their healthcare provider and medical services based on the cost and quality of care. If healthcare providers had to compete just like another business then the cost would be much lower and much more affordable.

We are seeing this kind of healthcare starting to spring up, where they have a list of services at a very reduce cost that is not set in stone as we see insurance companies and hospitals do. I took my son to an emergency room for a split chin and after sitting there for 6 hours the doctor saw him for 5 or so minutes and put tape on his chin to seal up the cut. The cost was a whopping $1000 for 5 mins of work and some tape, cotton, and sterilizing agent. The reason why it cost so much is because of an agreement between the hospitals and insurance companies to set that price without the consumer involved at all.

Most other countries have much reduced healthcare cost because doctors and healthcare providers need to compete for their business.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


well, great, then there's nothing in the constitution that says they have the right to take money from me to help you start your business either, or to fund medical research...or to rebuild foreign countries after you bombed them to hell. or provide you with grants to go to college, or spend a not so small fortune to protect big oil's business interests. heck, the government overstepped those boundaries decades ago, if not longer! but, it seems like the only time it's a concern for the republicans is when it aims to help real people and not business entities!

since those boundaries have been tossed out the window already, let's talk justice....or lack thereof...

where's the justice when a teenage boy gets denied entry into the navy simply because his health records are scattered all over the place, because most of his life he was uninsured (although, gee, his parents tax money was being used to pay for most of his neighborhood friends to have great health coverage?

where is the justice when a women is laid up in bed, with children to look after and feed, going nuts trying to just find a way to get the treatment she needs...but the family's taxmoney is being used by the neighbors to open their windows wide open in the winter time to "air the place out" and their kids are being taken to the doctor for much less serious problems as well as themselves?

there is no justice in the current system....



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


Two wrongs do not make a right my friend. So with as sad as those stories are, taking more tax dollars from those paying to be used to fund universal healthcare is just as unjust. Plus, if your in a tax bracket where your paying any substantial taxes and not getting them back then your making enough to afford health insurance. Now it might not be easy to afford it, and you may have to make some sacrafices, but thus is life. Just do not take yet more from those people.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:21 PM
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It is not and can not be a RIGHT if the creation of that RIGHT mandates and imposes a demand and enslavement upon another to provide you with that so-called RIGHT! What you may call a RIGHT should not result in a DETRIMENT to another. Yup, health care IS a privilege and NOT a right.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Blanca Rose
 


Absolute rubbish. Doctors do not set fees. Fees are set by Medicare and other payers. Doctors unfortunately do not have the luxury of reducing rates for un/under-insured patients because they run the risk of going to prison if they do. There are some docs who operate outside the payer system altogether (I encourage my husband to do the same everyday) and those docs are able to provide less expensive care and work with patients for payments more easily but it's difficult to opt out of the system and make a living.

This is what people get when they think health care is a right- this is the result of government interference in health care.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:54 PM
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If anyone understood how our military worked they would realize we could defend our nation at a fraction of what we spend. Our military Industrial complex is out of control and dictating policy and making sure though corrupt politicians the general public will never know the truth.

If we were in a defensive only position instead of a ready to invade position we could have free healthcare without an increase in taxes. This is a fact and I know military strategy. With our nuclear submarine capability alone keeps all nations at arms length coupled with our geographical position we are able to shrink the size of our military to a stand ready to assemble position for a fraction of what we are spending.

We are the United States of Chumpsville.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by micheshi
Doctors unfortunately do not have the luxury of reducing rates for un/under-insured patients because they run the risk of going to prison if they do.

Huh? They sure can reduce their rates. I had surgery in May last year and was hospitalized for 10 days. And, I was uninsured. All them bills added up to over $80k. And, because I was uninsured, I got ALL of them, the hospital, the surgeons, the anesthesiologist, the x-ray folks, all them bills (except for one that was for $450), to REDUCED their amounts by HALF or more (if they wanted to get paid)! And, the one that is still demanding their full $450 fee is still waiting to be paid, ha.

And, some time before that, I had a slight rollerblading accident and required a dozen stitches. Instead of going to the hospital, I visited a doctor I knew at his own private office and he stitched me shut for $50, a number he simply picked from from the sky when I insisted I owe him something!

Everything is negotiable and those that won't can go suck an egg.



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