Healthcare is 'a privilege...not a right': GOP lawmaker

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

Then why should I pay property taxes? I dont go to school, I don't call the police (I hanlde that myself) or even the fire department (again I handle that myself). I dont use any governmental services nor do I need a huge offensive based military.

So what right do YOU have YOU using MY money?

Because we are not animals. We are supposed to be humane. Go get some humanity.

People cannot afford insurance and most jobs do not even offer it. Our health care system has costs that are way out of control and we need to shift to being more like humans and a bit less dog eat dog.

You shouldn't have to.

What right do I have to use your money? The statistics would probably disagree... in all likelyhood you're probably using my money.

This is not a question of humanity. On the face of it, it does appear that way... but only on the surface. To simply wash away all discussion of the issue is anti-intellectual. It is plebian. It is the nature of the uneducated.

Humanity doesn't mean imposing upon others. Where is the humanity of liberals not to steal from me?

True humanity always has been, and always will be, charity. Charity is the highest of actions; the best of humanity. Forcing a rich man into paying for a poor one's medicine is not humanity, it is faceless collectivism. I am not a member of any collective. I am one man, created by god with inalienable natural rights; and I should never, ever be forced to help another man against my will.

You want socialized healthcare? Do you really want to pay for cancer treatment for smokers? Quadruple heart bypasses for the hyper obese? You guys never stop and think about your suggestions.

Its so easy to think "oh... i dont have money for healthcare. Wouldnt it be neat if that disgusting rich man living down the street had to pay for my treatment". It takes conviction to stand on your own feet and face destiny by yourself, and with friends or benefactors.

If I am inhuman, then you are immoral.
If I am greedy, then you are shortsighted.

I know its shocking - Humans are a global animal.

Best we all protect our little enclosed pens - - or maybe we can escape and All humans can be free.

as long as they are taking money from the taxpayer's pockets to provide healthcare to some....AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE IS A RIGHT!!!

if the republicans have a problem with that, well, then I suggest that they stop taking money out of those 46 million or so uninsured and underinsured people out the to divert to the drug companies, the hospitals, the insurance companies, and yes....the "poor".

can't come to terms with that....tough!!

Since the dawn of man "healthcare", as it is and was, was something that was bought and paid for. Shamans/ withdoctors did not provide their services for free. The required or asked for tributes. Why is now so different? These people spend years and thoudands of dollars being trained to help the people, but we think their hardwork should not be paid for. How about you fix my car for free or maybe take tax money to ensure that my car works properly forever? The human body is a complex machine and these people try and give you guidelines to keep it from breaking. Granted, viruses and things we can't control do happen to us medically, but why are we gonna punish those who invested the time and the resources to diagnose and fix our problems? Helathcare is NOT a right. The only right is for you to live a life that is as clean from disease as possible and these doctors are doing that. Yes they get rich. Yes the hospital is overcharging. But by penalizing the healthcare industry you are crippling thier ability to effectivley diagnose and treat problems. They are already plagued with rampant frivolous lawsuits.

Since the dawn of man "healthcare", as it is and was, was something that was bought and paid for. Shamans/ withdoctors did not provide their services for free. The required or asked for tributes. Why is now so different? These people spend years and thousands of dollars being trained to help the people, but we think their hardwork should not be paid for. How about you fix my car for free or maybe take tax money to ensure that my car works properly forever? The human body is a complex machine and these people try and give you guidelines to keep it from breaking. Granted, viruses and things we can't control do happen to us medically, but why are we gonna punish those who invested the time and the resources to diagnose and fix our problems? Healthcare is NOT a right. The only right is for you to live a life that is as clean from disease as possible and these doctors are trying to help you do that. Yes they get rich. Yes the hospital is overcharging. But by penalizing the healthcare industry you are crippling thier ability to effectivley diagnose and treat problems. They are already plagued with rampant frivolous lawsuits.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by djvexd]

[edit on 6-3-2009 by djvexd]

reply to post by 44soulslayer


My friend the cancer treatment you talk about is still been payed by tax payer dollars.

No body in our nation goes out without health care actually usually the tab goes to the patients but what they don't pay comes from you and me.

So is lame argument actually taking into consideration that we still pay at a higher cost.

Still tax payer money.

Is many insurance that do not pay for any type of cancer treatments at all

reply to post by djvexd


National health care does not mean that doctors and nurses will give their services for free. They will invoice against some type of national health care account and get paid for their services. Doctors will continue to get paid very well and hospitals will continue to make a profit. The middleman (insurance companies) will be removed. By removing their need to make a profit, costs can go down without the health professional salaries and profits going down too.

Shades of Ayn Rand in this discussion.

Her bio is too revealing. Like those who were raised with abuse - often become abusers.

Self serving - survival of the fittest.

Its just not how I want my resume of higher evolvement to read.

Why is this suddenly the be all, end all in this country?

Like I said earlier, it wasn't even a blip on the radar a little more than a decade ago. If it is so needed for a "civilized society" and such a "fundamental human right", why is it only that way now and not all along?

In today's world we have the technology to keep you alive almost indefinitely depending on your definition of alive and the amount of money you have. The reality is, the resources do not exist to treat everyone to head-of-state and Magic Johnson levels of healthcare. Thus, the statement that, getting your cancer treated isn't a privilege is BS.

I would love for everyone's healthcare to be taken care of-- but where does it end? Experimental treatments that have no evidence of being effective? Costly treatments that might be marginally better and have a high failure rate? The fact is, like food quality, quality of life, quality of transportation, and quality of social interaction, everything in life is moderated by the amount of money and power you have. This includes quality of healthcare-- b/c like those other arbitrary metrics, there is no perfect version, the level can increase infinitely the more money you have. If you have enough, you can even fund research on your own personal disorder. This is reality-- and this bull that you should be guranteed perfect healthcare is nothing but cheese.

And here comes the moral dilemma-- if the gov't gives us healthcare, how can they possibly allow us to dangerous and unhealthy things to our body. Seriously-- if you want legalized drugs and universal healthcare, you want to become essentially parasite on society. There is no logic in it. You can't have complete freedom to do whatever you want and no accountability for your own actions--this is life! Jesus.

Originally posted by djvexd
Since the dawn of man "healthcare", as it is and was, was something that was bought and paid for. Shamans/ withdoctors did not provide their services for free.

Pretty hard to take anything else you say seriously when you make a statement like the one above.

As one who has lived and worked on 2 different rez. and on the boundary of another and known personally a few native American practitioners in traditional healing arts. They never ask for enumeration or anything else. It is totally up to the patient when and if they are helped.

Healing arts in traditional and tribal cultures is deemed a gift from a higher power and to profit from it is profane.

BTW, what's a "withdoctor"



[edit on 6-3-2009 by whaaa]

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
When my grandparents and parents were living through the depression, it was considered shamefule to "be on the dole."

Just because they felt shame doesn't make it valid. Nice try on your appeal to authority. There is no baseline upon which shame should be accepted. Your grandparents lived in a different world. It doesn't have to be the same today.

We actually do have the resources to completely eliminate scarcity on this planet. It's only being perpetuated because it fuels economic growth, which is absolutely vital to sustaining a rapidly growing population. Scarcity arises out the inability of individuals to provide resources at the rate they are demanded. There is no such thing as innate scarcity. If it required zero ATP per person (meaning they need zero food to live) to extract a large petroleum reserve and refine it into gasoline, then gasoline would be free. People would gladly do this for others to a certain extent because it would take no energy (time would be the only limiting factor assuming people still die naturally). We have the technology to do this. This isn't some kind of far fetched scientific dream.

Imagine if we had nuclear powered robots extracting and refining petroleum on a 24 hour basis. Seeking profit would not be justified in that case, as whoever owned the robots would command absolute control over those who demanded the resources being extracted. That would be virtual slavery. Since the robots have a seemingly infinite supply of energy (nuclear power) then no one has the right to control them. It should provide free energy to everyone who wants or needs it.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by cognoscente]

reply to post by whaaa


I think he means witch doctor, this remind me in my littler island when health care was free for all and we did have "curanderos" (witch doctors) to help with less chronic ailments when I was a girl.

I think big pharma has been doing a great job trying to kill holistic approach to ailments.

They sure have money to burn.

reply to post by rockieboy


not to mention....

the doctors might actually be a little freer to do their work the way they think is best, not be how an insurance company thinks it should be done to be "cost effective"....which by the way, usually ends up costing more money!

reply to post by rockieboy


And that is where you are wrong. In an industry in America that is already substabtially underpaid ( nursing and medical assistants) this idea will only cripple the amount of people willing to put the effort forward. Aside from most aspiring doctors want to serve the people , most also look at the financial security of the fact, hence why they put the 8+ years, plus the 100k+ dollars into thier training. It is a sacrifice for the better. But when you institute "socialized healthcare" the quality of said care goes down. Doctors salaries are capped and number of nurses/assistants is limited due to budgetary concerns. Hence peolpe stop striving. Why would someone want to put themsleves into 100k+ debt in order to make 60-80k a year? I am all for a "socialized prescription plan" , but doctors are one thing we shouldn't screw with. As of now I have no insurance. Public or otherwise. I still don't have a problem paying a "professional" to see me when I am sick. It is not the job of the republic to make you healthy or keep you that way. It is the job of yourself to assure you are healthy enough to support the republic.

Originally posted by skeptic1
Why is this suddenly the be all, end all in this country?

Like I said earlier, it wasn't even a blip on the radar a little more than a decade ago. If it is so needed for a "civilized society" and such a "fundamental human right", why is it only that way now and not all along?

Was it? Was it really?

Doctors often didn't get paid. Doctors once believed in being a doctor.

Health care has become big business because of Insurance and Pharmaceuticals.

reply to post by djvexd


so, which treatment would you consider would be more beneficial to society for our money to go towards.....
mom wants an excuse to justify not working a day so she brings her baby to the doctor for the sniffles?

or mom breaks her ankle and needs an operation before she ever can walk agian....
because...guess what your tax dollars paid for the excuse so the mom didn't have to work....but well, the mom with the broken ankle needed the intercession of a danged state legislator to get treated in the current system....

I'll tell you something, helping the needy is a great thing to do, but to sit and watch someone suffer till they are incapable of doing much of anything and half dead before you offer help is just downright sadistic!

Originally posted by dawnstar

mom wants an excuse to justify not working a day so she brings her baby to the doctor for the sniffles?

DAD wants an excuse to justify not working a day so he brings his baby to the doctor for the sniffles?

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Annee]

reply to post by Annee


I remember when doctors use to carry a littler black bag and came to visit you at home.

Yes this was back in 1960s I was a child then.

reply to post by dawnstar


Well first you are operating under the assumption that if you don't have money you don't get treated...THAT IS FALSE! Yes you might incur a bill but hospitals, when they file the paperwork also fill a financial disclaimer and most gets chrged to the hospital or tax-payer or other intervening charities. So your whole arguement is moot.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by djvexd]

[edit on 6-3-2009 by djvexd]